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Poll: World Cup


BigTed3

  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Habs player got the biggest snub for the World Cup?

    • P.K. Subban
    • Alex Galchenyuk
    • Lars Eller
      0
    • Brendan Gallagher
      0


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Several Habs with shots at making the World Cup were passed over. Team Canada management (much like Habs management) seems to have taken issue with P.K. Subban and made him a whipping boy for being too risky, even thought the numbers say he's a better player than every defenceman picked for Team Canada. Brendan Gallagher went to the Worlds and won Gold but isn't on the team either.

But if you look down the list, you see Alex Galchenyuk ignored behind the likes of less-proven players like Drouin, Matthews, and so on for Team North America. And you see Eller left off Team Europe while guys like Bellemare and Rieder (who?) made it.

Which of these guys, when you look at the players chosen instead of them do you think was the biggest snub as a missed selection?

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I'll go with Subban just because even with the depth of team Canada, you expect the Norris winner from a few seasons ago, who is actually better now than his Norris season, to make the team. It seems Subban can't shake his reputation.

I didn't expect Galchenyk to make Team USA (actually are 23 and under eligible for both teams?), but I'm puzzled about how he was left off the Young Guns roster. Yet Drouin and Mattthews made it?

Eller was mildly surprising mostly because given the lack of depth to choose from for Team Europe I figured his overall play would make up for lackluster stats (eg. would put him ahead of Bellemare). But I can't consider this one shocking because we're talking about a player coming off a 17 point season who's never broken 30 points (granted in a shortened season).

Gallagher is the least surprising. As much as we all like him, we're talking about a guy who's yet to get 50 points and not even 25 years old. His grit and determination doesn't outweigh the fact that Team Canada simply has so many high-skill players to choose from.

On the other side, I didn't expect Emelin to make Team Russia.

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P.K. not making didn't surprise me. Letang , Seabrook and others didn't also. Say what you want they wanted perceived chemistry for a short series right or wrong. I was more surprise Alex didn't get to go because either the US team or the young guns team doesn't have as much scoring depth. Kessel and Ryan all scorers didn't make it either. I think for these short series they are looking to much at other things. The US squad maybe , but it's a slap to Alex not to make the young guns over players that have very little or no NHL experience!

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P.K., and rather obviously so I must say.

P.K. not making didn't surprise me. Letang , Seabrook and others didn't also.

I could write a small novel explaining how Subban is superior to Letang and Seabrook in every conceivable capacity, but particularly Seabrook. The comparison doesn't hold, at all; they don't belong in the same sentence.

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P.K., and rather obviously so I must say.

I could write a small novel explaining how Subban is superior to Letang and Seabrook in every conceivable capacity, but particularly Seabrook. The comparison doesn't hold, at all; they don't belong in the same sentence.

I agree BUT I think I could handle it better if it was Seabrook and Letang... but Muzzin? Come on!

And Chucky too. He would be the best LW on that team! When you add in his experience (something lacking in that group) He is absolutely their #1 LW.

I think Eller should be there but its not quite the shock to me and Gallagher is hurt by Marchand, I think he should be happy that he was in the conversation given his size, I think he'll have a real shot next time!

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Guest Regis2

I don't think anyone was snubbed

Once PK didn't get selected as one of the 1st four there was good chance he wasn't going to selected at all. Doesn't help that his own coach publicly criticizes him for an individualistic play .

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In my opinion Brendan Gallagher​ not making the Team is a disgrace look @ what this kid did in the previous tournament,a couple goals & a few assists I believe .My question is why not Gallagher,this kid has more drive & gusto than most of the players twice his size & stature .

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I went with Galchenyuk.

I wouldn't even necessarily call Eller or Gallagher's omissions "snubs". Gallagher, as much as we justifiably love him, is probably not one of the top four right-wings in Canada. As for Eller, do I think that he's a better player than some of the guys who were picked? I do. But as Graeme said, Eller's not exactly a guy who lights up the score sheet and I think he's easy to miss for a selection committee that may not watch him play as much as we do.

Subban, well, I still think it's silly that he's not a virtual lock for these tournaments. It must be incredibly frustrating for him to be such a talented defensive player but to get such little recognition from people in management positions. I can't really argue with anybody who voted for him as the biggest snub, except to say that while not picking him was ridiculous it was also pretty much expected at this point.

With Galchenyuk, though, I'm genuinely surprised that he was left off of the team. I'm also really disappointed, because it would have been fun to watch him play alongside such great offensive players.

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I went with Subban, although I think you can make an argument for any of the first three. I agree that Gallagher was a long-shot to make it and not really a snub in any way.

For Subban, he is consistently judged on a much harsher level of criticism than others. A lot of that starts with the bashing he takes from his own coaches and from the media here. It really set his reputation up poorly, and Team Canada is just following along. Nevertheless, if you look at the people running Team Canada, you'd expect them to be able to see above the lacklustre job Therrien has done with Subban. I don't see any way the team can argue Pietrangelo is better; though he's good, he's extremely overrated. And I'll take Subban on the left over Muzzin there every day of the year. Subban at this point in his career is also superior to Weber and he's also better than Doughty, even though that's a lot closer. As I said with the Olympics, I can understand the committee liking Doughty and Weber's experience and success internationally but Subban will never get that if he's never given the chance. To me, Subban's non-selection was not in the least based on an objective evaluation of skill and on-ice performance and THAT is what makes it the biggest snub.

In Galchenyuk's case, I didn't expect him to make USA, although an argument could have been made. He was probably one of the 15-20 best forwards in the league this year, for all countries, never mind just the US, but I completely get that the US might not want to select him based on just one season, and clearly the likes of Brian Burke just went full-grinder on the entire team. Kessel is a bigger snub than Galchenyuk, just on that squad. But for the young guns, I just don't see how you can argue Galchenyuk's limited NHL career is a factor in leaving him off, as it would have been with USA. Galchenyuk is a better player than Drouin right now. He's better than Matthews too. Right now. Maybe those other guys will overtake him, but as of now, they're not. Galchenyuk's easily better than JT Miller and Couturier and he's probably marginally better than a couple of other guys there as well. But in any case, you can easily find 4-5 guys Galchenyuk should be there ahead of.

In Eller's case, he's not a guy who demands inclusion in this event. but Bellemare's selection is just a joke. He's a goon on a goon team. Tobias Rieder? Jannik Hansen? I don't think Eller's blowing anyone out of the water, so I'm not overly upset about this, but Bellemare getting chosen rubs me the wrong way more than Eller being left off.

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P.K. not making didn't surprise me. Letang , Seabrook and others didn't also. Say what you want they wanted perceived chemistry for a short series right or wrong. I was more surprise Alex didn't get to go because either the US team or the young guns team doesn't have as much scoring depth. Kessel and Ryan all scorers didn't make it either. I think for these short series they are looking to much at other things. The US squad maybe , but it's a slap to Alex not to make the young guns over players that have very little or no NHL experience!

P.K. not making didn't surprise me. Letang , Seabrook and others didn't also. Say what you want they wanted perceived chemistry for a short series right or wrong. I was more surprise Alex didn't get to go because either the US team or the young guns team doesn't have as much scoring depth. Kessel and Ryan all scorers didn't make it either. I think for these short series they are looking to much at other things. The US squad maybe , but it's a slap to Alex not to make the young guns over players that have very little or no NHL experience!

I only saw two snubs and with the depth of Canadian D, I am not really surprised Subban was left off as he can often be a big distraction and I think the NHL wants this to be more about growing the game. For me Galchenyuk was the one who should of had the best opportunity as he was overlooked by two teams. Not really too worried as our team will be well rested for the start of the season.

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Guest Regis2

. Not really too worried as our team will be well rested for the start of the season.

Only Hab who made the Canadian team is our goalie who missed last year with a knee injury - I guess if he's going to re I injure it , he may as well do it early :unsure:

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Only Hab who made the Canadian team is our goalie who missed last year with a knee injury - I guess if he's going to re I injure it , he may as well do it early :unsure:

Price is the only Canadian. But we'll also have Plekanec, Markov, and Emelin there too. All 4 of those guys are players who have worn down as seasons have gone on the past few years and who probably don't need to be playing extra games. I have much less worry about guys like Subban, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, and Eller, but none are going, and I'm not too concerned about Pacioretty being there.

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From mynhltraderumors, regarding Subban being left off Team Canada:

P.K. Subban

Ask anyone who closely follows hockey and they’ll tell you P.K. Subban is a top-5 defenseman in the NHL.

Despite his undeniable dominance, Subban somehow was not deemed a top-7 blue liner in Canada.

Over the last two seasons Subban is 5th in points with 111 and 4th in points per game with .73. Only one defenseman on Canada’s roster (Brent Burns) has bested those totals.

On top of the ridiculous offensive production, Subban’s underlying numbers are also fantastic.

While playing big minutes against top competition each and every night, the Habs were still landslides better with Subban on the ice.

At 5 v 5 over the last two years the Canadiens have controlled 52.3% of the shot attempts and 55.9% of the goals. Without Subban those numbers drop to 48.7% in each category.

In other words his ‘defensive issues’ are way overblown, and his offensive totals speak for themselves.

He should have not only made Team Canada, but played a prominent role on the team.

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I'll go with Subban just because even with the depth of team Canada, you expect the Norris winner from a few seasons ago, who is actually better now than his Norris season, to make the team. It seems Subban can't shake his reputation.

I didn't expect Galchenyk to make Team USA (actually are 23 and under eligible for both teams?), but I'm puzzled about how he was left off the Young Guns roster. Yet Drouin and Mattthews made it?

Eller was mildly surprising mostly because given the lack of depth to choose from for Team Europe I figured his overall play would make up for lackluster stats (eg. would put him ahead of Bellemare). But I can't consider this one shocking because we're talking about a player coming off a 17 point season who's never broken 30 points (granted in a shortened season).

Gallagher is the least surprising. As much as we all like him, we're talking about a guy who's yet to get 50 points and not even 25 years old. His grit and determination doesn't outweigh the fact that Team Canada simply has so many high-skill players to choose from.

On the other side, I didn't expect Emelin to make Team Russia.

Agree with everything here.

Price is the only Canadian. But we'll also have Plekanec, Markov, and Emelin there too. All 4 of those guys are players who have worn down as seasons have gone on the past few years and who probably don't need to be playing extra games. I have much less worry about guys like Subban, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, and Eller, but none are going, and I'm not too concerned about Pacioretty being there.

Part of me hopes he doesnt make it. I really dont want to risk the chance of injury.

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While I think Subban is somewhere in or around the top ten behind Doughty, Weber, Keith, Burns and a few others the playing time then becomes important. Does he graciously want to pick up playing low if any minutes coming off an injury? The risk may be worse than the reward. I am sure he will get his moment in the sun but don't mind him missing on this one. Now if he is ijured while riding a scooter through the Blue Jays dressing room I may have some other issues with PK. He seems to be everywhere but on Team Canada at the moment.

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Guest Regis2

. Now if he is ijured while riding a scooter through the Blue Jays dressing room I may have some other issues with PK. He seems to be everywhere but on Team Canada at the moment.

lol..you saw that eh ? :lol:

Last week he was flying to Cleveland , with his millionaire buddy , to watch the Raptors

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While I think Subban is somewhere in or around the top ten behind Doughty, Weber, Keith, Burns and a few others the playing time then becomes important. Does he graciously want to pick up playing low if any minutes coming off an injury? The risk may be worse than the reward. I am sure he will get his moment in the sun but don't mind him missing on this one. Now if he is ijured while riding a scooter through the Blue Jays dressing room I may have some other issues with PK. He seems to be everywhere but on Team Canada at the moment.

You think Subban is behind those 4 guys and others?

If you look at 5v5 points per ice time over the past three seasons for D men who have played more than 150 games over those three years, Subban is 7th in the league... the guys in front of him are Burns, Hedman, Karlsson, Byfuglien, Barrie, and Giordano (two of those players having spent time as forwards as well, so Subban really being 5th among true full-time defencemen). He's ahead of Pietrangelo, Keith, and well ahead of Doughty. Subban is 5th in absolute 5v5 points behind Karlsson, Burns, Hedman, and Josi. He's tied with Pietrangelo, ahead of Keith, and well ahead of Doughty. If you look at total points including special teams, Subban is 3rd over the past 3 years, behind only Karlsson and Burns. Keith is a bit further behind, and Pietrangelo and Doughty are even lower, behind Andrei Markov, if you'd like to put that into perspective.

In Corsi, Subban has good numbers, although he's well behind Doughty, Keith, and Burns. However, if you look more closely, you'll see the leaaderboard in this category is filled with Blues, Sharks, Hawks, and especially Kings. Those teams are just well-coached possession machines. So where it gets interesting is looking at Corsi relative (a player's possession numbers weighted for the strength of the team/system he's playing in). Do that and Subban is 8th in the NHL, behind Karlsson and Hedman but well ahead of Doughty, Keith, Pietrangelo, Muzzin, Letang, Weber and a host of others.

So the stats, the numbers, the facts all support that Subban is a better offensive defenceman than Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Muzzin, Vlasic, Bouwmeester, Letang, and Weber. They also support that his possession numbers are better than all of these players as well when you correct for the fact that Subban is playing in an awful system with a coach who doesn't use him efficiently. In a comparable situation (such as, I don't know, playing for Team Canada), the numbers suggest Subban would be the better possession player and better all-around contributor. The only players in the same or better statistical category as Subban over the past three years appear to be Karlsson and Hedman. That's it, and neither one of those players is Canadian and competing for a spot on the roster.

So I'll re-emphasize that the ONLY reason Subban isn't on the team is because of reputation. It's because he was marginalized and slighted by his own coach and GM and by Team Canada management who failed to look above the damage Subban's reputation has suffered at the hands of Therrien and Daigneault and the media. All objective numbers show Subban is a superior player to the 7 guys who were actually chosen to play for Canada.

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You think Subban is behind those 4 guys and others?

If you look at 5v5 points per ice time over the past three seasons for D men who have played more than 150 games over those three years, Subban is 7th in the league... the guys in front of him are Burns, Hedman, Karlsson, Byfuglien, Barrie, and Giordano (two of those players having spent time as forwards as well, so Subban really being 5th among true full-time defencemen). He's ahead of Pietrangelo, Keith, and well ahead of Doughty. Subban is 5th in absolute 5v5 points behind Karlsson, Burns, Hedman, and Josi. He's tied with Pietrangelo, ahead of Keith, and well ahead of Doughty. If you look at total points including special teams, Subban is 3rd over the past 3 years, behind only Karlsson and Burns. Keith is a bit further behind, and Pietrangelo and Doughty are even lower, behind Andrei Markov, if you'd like to put that into perspective.

In Corsi, Subban has good numbers, although he's well behind Doughty, Keith, and Burns. However, if you look more closely, you'll see the leaaderboard in this category is filled with Blues, Sharks, Hawks, and especially Kings. Those teams are just well-coached possession machines. So where it gets interesting is looking at Corsi relative (a player's possession numbers weighted for the strength of the team/system he's playing in). Do that and Subban is 8th in the NHL, behind Karlsson and Hedman but well ahead of Doughty, Keith, Pietrangelo, Muzzin, Letang, Weber and a host of others.

So the stats, the numbers, the facts all support that Subban is a better offensive defenceman than Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Muzzin, Vlasic, Bouwmeester, Letang, and Weber. They also support that his possession numbers are better than all of these players as well when you correct for the fact that Subban is playing in an awful system with a coach who doesn't use him efficiently. In a comparable situation (such as, I don't know, playing for Team Canada), the numbers suggest Subban would be the better possession player and better all-around contributor. The only players in the same or better statistical category as Subban over the past three years appear to be Karlsson and Hedman. That's it, and neither one of those players is Canadian and competing for a spot on the roster.

So I'll re-emphasize that the ONLY reason Subban isn't on the team is because of reputation. It's because he was marginalized and slighted by his own coach and GM and by Team Canada management who failed to look above the damage Subban's reputation has suffered at the hands of Therrien and Daigneault and the media. All objective numbers show Subban is a superior player to the 7 guys who were actually chosen to play for Canada.

I think the argument for the western style of play also lowers the point totals of players like Weber Doughty and some others so I think that evens out with PK's leading them in scoring. I don't like Peitrangelo (thought he was awful against the Sharks) but wouldn't say PK is much better than Letang. Should he or could he be top six on Canada? Possibly, but who knows what they are thinking There are others with more experience and I would trade PK straight up for Doughty but Weber, Keith and Letang are a little older and that may be the reason. It appears Canada is sticking with a core group of thirty somethings. PK may just need to be aged like a fine wine.

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I think the argument for the western style of play also lowers the point totals of players like Weber Doughty and some others so I think that evens out with PK's leading them in scoring. I don't like Peitrangelo (thought he was awful against the Sharks) but wouldn't say PK is much better than Letang. Should he or could he be top six on Canada? Possibly, but who knows what they are thinking There are others with more experience and I would trade PK straight up for Doughty but Weber, Keith and Letang are a little older and that may be the reason. It appears Canada is sticking with a core group of thirty somethings. PK may just need to be aged like a fine wine.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this point. Ever since Therrien put a stop to the "triple down-low fives"", PK has not been the same player. I look at it this way. PK is like a thoroughbred race horse. You just have to let him run. Therrien has put shackles on PK, to the point where PK is afraid of making mistakes, and that has been detrimental to PK's game. I've seen Orr, Bourque, Doughty, Letang, Karlsson, and other well know D-men make mistakes over the course of their careers, and not one of them have been benched because of their errors.

IMO, the powers that be, have only looked at PK's mistakes, and not looked at the scoring chances he generated while he is on the ice.

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I think the argument for the western style of play also lowers the point totals of players like Weber Doughty and some others so I think that evens out with PK's leading them in scoring. I don't like Peitrangelo (thought he was awful against the Sharks) but wouldn't say PK is much better than Letang. Should he or could he be top six on Canada? Possibly, but who knows what they are thinking There are others with more experience and I would trade PK straight up for Doughty but Weber, Keith and Letang are a little older and that may be the reason. It appears Canada is sticking with a core group of thirty somethings. PK may just need to be aged like a fine wine.

1. Yes, the Western conference plays a little bit of a different game, but that doesn't negate the points Subban has put up. You could also argue then that Subban is a superior defensive defenceman than he's given credit for, as he has to play in the more open Eastern conference. And if anything, you could argue the East teams are better prepared for playing on an international ice surface with higher skilled opponents. Team Canada took 7 guys from the West and none from the East... does that mean the East should be completely ignored?

2. You mentioned that they might have wanted players with more experience, but Subban was on the Olympic roster and Burns and Muzzin weren't. So if anything, they didn't go right for experience as the only factor. And if they did want experience, why not opt for Bouwmeester or Seabrook over Muzzin as well?

3. You also mentioned they went with 30-somethings, but Muzzin, Vlasic, Doughty and Pietrangelo are all in their 20's. The last two are actually younger than Subban.

So again, none of those are real arguments for excluding Subban from the team. He was excluded because of reputation and reputation alone. The knock on him is that he's a risky player, but the numbers show he's far more reliable than Weber and Pietrangelo. Pietrangelo in particular has made some high-profile turnovers and errors in both international play and in the NHL, yet he draws much less attention for them because the media chooses not to make it the storyline. Weber has the international pedigree, but he also takes a lot of bad penalties, which is as much of a risk as anything Subban does. So I'll reiterate that Subban has the better production numbers, the better possession numbers, and as much experience as someone like Pietrangelo. I can't find a single reason why Pietrangelo deserves to be on this team ahead of Subban. If I were choosing the squad, I'd have

Keith-Doughty

Vlasic-Subban

Letang-Weber

Burns

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1. Yes, the Western conference plays a little bit of a different game, but that doesn't negate the points Subban has put up. You could also argue then that Subban is a superior defensive defenceman than he's given credit for, as he has to play in the more open Eastern conference. And if anything, you could argue the East teams are better prepared for playing on an international ice surface with higher skilled opponents. Team Canada took 7 guys from the West and none from the East... does that mean the East should be completely ignored?

2. You mentioned that they might have wanted players with more experience, but Subban was on the Olympic roster and Burns and Muzzin weren't. So if anything, they didn't go right for experience as the only factor. And if they did want experience, why not opt for Bouwmeester or Seabrook over Muzzin as well?

3. You also mentioned they went with 30-somethings, but Muzzin, Vlasic, Doughty and Pietrangelo are all in their 20's. The last two are actually younger than Subban.

So again, none of those are real arguments for excluding Subban from the team. He was excluded because of reputation and reputation alone. The knock on him is that he's a risky player, but the numbers show he's far more reliable than Weber and Pietrangelo. Pietrangelo in particular has made some high-profile turnovers and errors in both international play and in the NHL, yet he draws much less attention for them because the media chooses not to make it the storyline. Weber has the international pedigree, but he also takes a lot of bad penalties, which is as much of a risk as anything Subban does. So I'll reiterate that Subban has the better production numbers, the better possession numbers, and as much experience as someone like Pietrangelo. I can't find a single reason why Pietrangelo deserves to be on this team ahead of Subban. If I were choosing the squad, I'd have

Keith-Doughty

Vlasic-Subban

Letang-Weber

Burns

Can't argue with Pietrangelo as I don't like his play, and won't argue points because it is too obvious so personality and the possibility of players riding scooters becoming contagious in the dressing room must be it. PK rolls to a different tune and at times it will hurt him but that is part of the maturation process. Those in charge take a lot longer to adapt and maybe this will be the new wave just like Bautista's bat flip appears to have caused a ripple in baseball. PK may be causing a similar issue in hockey. Some fans may be disappointed but as long as he can live with the possible consequeces from his choices I don't have a problem with it. Like Bautista he may get bruised along the way but he may as well enjoy his youth. If his actions negatively impact the Habs I will have a different view.

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For Subban, he is consistently judged on a much harsher level of criticism than others. A lot of that starts with the bashing he takes from his own coaches and from the media here. It really set his reputation up poorly, and Team Canada is just following along. Nevertheless, if you look at the people running Team Canada, you'd expect them to be able to see above the lacklustre job Therrien has done with Subban. I don't see any way the team can argue Pietrangelo is better; though he's good, he's extremely overrated. And I'll take Subban on the left over Muzzin there every day of the year. Subban at this point in his career is also superior to Weber and he's also better than Doughty, even though that's a lot closer. As I said with the Olympics, I can understand the committee liking Doughty and Weber's experience and success internationally but Subban will never get that if he's never given the chance. To me, Subban's non-selection was not in the least based on an objective evaluation of skill and on-ice performance and THAT is what makes it the biggest snub.

Weber is ridiculously overrated, if Hockey Canada wants to put Doughty over Subban, I can live with it (even though I do honestly disagree) but after that in terms of RH DMen? I don't see a real strong argument for anyone. Funny enough, you could probably argue Letang as the closest and he didn't make the team either. Whatever, Hockey Canada has always done this and will continue to.

As for the Subban being underrated thing, a lot of it doesn't bother me as a Hab fan, it's mostly just noise. The fact that he's a great personality who can sell the game on so many levels and it's a missed opportunity doesn't really impact me personally. The thing that's concerning is like you said, so much of it originates out of Montreal. It stands to reason that since Bergevin was on the selection committee and he knows Subban better than anyone there his word carried a fair bit of weight but it's also clear that no one in the organization FULLY has Subban's back. At least not the level of a superstar talent. Bergevin and Therrien are constantly making Subban work 2x as hard for 50% of the credit/recognition and it spreads through the media and the hockey world.

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