RyderRocks73 Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 If that's what MB asked for he should be fired that's not enough You're giving up a # 1 D man for what Leon Draisaitl been in the league 1 yr and a pick True. Edmonton doesn't have the caliber of defenceman we'd want back for giving up Subban- even with great forwards, we'd be taking a step back. With his announcement today, I have a hard time believing he would have closed that deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shutoutfan Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Dont know who would be less stupid. The one making this offer or the one not snap-accepting it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 McKenzie reporting the Habs unlikely to trade Subban but that their priority is to upgrade the defence. If true, Bergevin is way off... wing needs much more of an upgrade than the blue line. Friedman reporting Bergevin stated trade for Subban unrealistic because it's hard to get the trade he wants, not because he's not trying to trade Subban. Implies MB is in fact looking into potential deals, which is very very very very very troubling. It's sad that in a week when we should be thinking about how to upgrade our team, get a high pick, go after Stamkos, etc. most fans are more concerned about Bergevin doing something dumb and screwing up the team. It's gotten to the point that if Bergevin does nothing, it's considered a win because nobody trusts him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shutoutfan Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 According to tsn we are interested in Fowler. Hopefully not as some kind of replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimaas Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 McKenzie reporting the Habs unlikely to trade Subban but that their priority is to upgrade the defence. If true, Bergevin is way off... wing needs much more of an upgrade than the blue line. Friedman reporting Bergevin stated trade for Subban unrealistic because it's hard to get the trade he wants, not because he's not trying to trade Subban. Implies MB is in fact looking into potential deals, which is very very very very very troubling. It's sad that in a week when we should be thinking about how to upgrade our team, get a high pick, go after Stamkos, etc. most fans are more concerned about Bergevin doing something dumb and screwing up the team. It's gotten to the point that if Bergevin does nothing, it's considered a win because nobody trusts him. There's a lot of noise coming from all directions but I still dont buy it. Bergevin had made some questionable moves but trading Subban? That would be so far out of his comfort zone I just dont see it. The other thing that gives me a little comfort is his choice of words at the presser yesterday. He didnt say "if someoen offered me the right player" he'd move subban he said "if someone offered me half their team" - which obviously is a bit of a joke/exaggeration but its clear he's not moving Subban for one player. If LA called up & said we want Subban so badly we're going to give you Doughty, Kopitar, Toffoli and a 1st rounder I think you make that move - but obviously it aint happening. I just cant conceivably imagine Montreal (of all places) trading away maybe the most dynamic and marketable players in the league - and thats not even taking into account his play on the ice. He's the best defenman we've had since Chelios. Maybe since the big 3. According to tsn we are interested in Fowler. Hopefully not as some kind of replacement. Id have no problem with Fowler as our #4. Subban - Beau Petry - Fowler but we'd probably need to dump Markov or at least Emelin to make that work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habsisme Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Id have no problem with Fowler as our #4. Subban - Beau Petry - Fowler but we'd probably need to dump Markov or at least Emelin to make that work. I'd say move Emelin AND Beau but I have more confidence in Fowler being able to handle #2 duties than I do Beau and he'd have trade value as well. If we could get Fowler without losing 9, we can then ship 9 and Beau to Edmonton for 4... just thinking out loud. But Fowlers cap hit makes it absolutely necessary that we trade Emelin in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 So far, offers we have been rumored to get - Draisaitl and the 4th overall for Subban and the 9th - Horvat, Tanev, and the 5th overall for Subban - Trouba and the 2nd overall for Subban and the 9th None of those offers would be enough to make me want to move. I'll put this in perspective: if Subban were being signed as an RFA, we would get four 1st rounders in return. And that's not even something we would necessarily sign off on. So to move Subban, the equivalent of four 1st rounders is a minimum starting point for me. Again, count the number of true #1 defencemen in the league (maybe a dozen) and count the number who are right-handed (maybe 3-4). Subban is a rare gem, and he's in his prime and signed long-term. That's about as good a player as you can possibly acquire. So if I were looking at those three teams potentially making offers to us, what would be a starting point? - Edm: Draisaitl, Hall, Nurse, and the 4th overall (4 first rounders) - Van: nothing... they just don't have anything worth talking about. - Wpg: Scheifele, Trouba, Petan, and the 2nd overall (4 first rounders) And in none of those deals would I be sending our 9th overall as well. Subban alone is better than any player coming through the draft right now and he's a sure thing, not a guess as to what kind of career he will have. Clb has also been rumored to be shopping their 3rd overall, and to me, any deal with them would need to include Seth Jones, the 3rd overall, and another player like Jenner or Reichel. The asking price is high, but it should be high for a player like Subban who's a top 10 player and top 3 defenceman in the league IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyez Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 DD out ... ^ this guy in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Bob Mckenzie saying Tampa refusing to go up on their latest offer to Stamkos of 8 years at 8.5M per season. I think that's a beatable contract. If we're paying Subban 9M and he didn't have UFA status, I think Stamkos can easily command 9-10M or more. Other names thrown out by various reporters in Boston, St. Louis, and Chicago suggest that Marc Bergevin has had feelers out for other players who could be available, including Cam Fowler, Kevin Shattenkirk, Andrew Shaw, and Dmitri Kulikov. I'm not sure I see the big need to spend all our remaining cap dollars on the defence (unless there's a plan to dump Markov and/or Emelin to free up cap space and a roster spot for a new guy), but for what it's worth, Bergevin continues to see defence as his biggest need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Further to my point about their only being 10-12 true #1 defencemen in the league, let's look at the past few Stanley Cup winners and whether they had a #1 D man: - 2016: Pens - Letang (on my list) - 2015: Hawks - Keith (on list) - 2014: Kings - Doughty (on list) - 2013: Hawks - Keith (on list) - 2012: Kings - Doughty (on list) - 2011: Bruins - Chara (was a true #1 at that time) - 2009: Pens - Letang (on list) - 2008: Wings - Lidstrom (was true #1 at that time) - 2007: Ducks - Niedermayer (was true #1 at that time) You have to go back 10 years to the 2006 Canes to find a team that won a Cup without having an elite defenceman leading the way, and even then, that year was more the exception than the rule. Without Subban (and without getting one of the other 10-12 elite D men back in a trade for him) we're looking at our best defenceman being one of Beaulieu, Markov, or Petry. None of those players qualifies as a #1 defenceman. In fact, none of those players currently even qualifies as a top pairing defenceman in my view. Petry is ideally a #3, Beaulieu is a #4 who can hopefully one day become a #2 but isn't there yet, and Markov is a declining entity who is probably best served by being a #5 guy and PP specialist (albeit even he couldn't help the PP last year). It's great and all that Laine and Hall and Draisaitl and Dubois are good hockey players, but it would be much harder to replace PK Subban than it would be to find another guy to play a top 6-9 role as a forward. If we were to trade Pacioretty, it would hurt, especially with the great contract he's on, but I can count you off 20 or more guys that we could find to play top-line forward and contribute 30 goals or more a season, so the drop-off there isn't as bad. With Subban out, the "next guy up" is such a far cry below what PK brings to the rink that it's unthinkable to deal him away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyez Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Bergevin continues to see defence as his biggest need. & that is why I think he is a little out to lunch 1. we have Price in net 2. we have PK on the blue line (& a few other VERY good d-men) stopping goals is NOT our problem... it's GETTING goals.... #1 priority he "should" have, is getting Stamkos (goals)... & picking up a goal scorer in the draft (@9 or or "above") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habsisme Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 I disagree. Our entire left side is full of question marks. IF things go well then yeah we have a #2 in Markov and #4 in Beau but both those guys sucked for large portions of the year last year I want a top 6 guy more than anything, but I don't think its crazy at all for MB to be concerned with D, especially if you're trying to move Emelin and maybe even Beau. Its conceivable we could add 2-3 players if we can shed some salary... and I really think we need to or hope that young players come of age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 & that is why I think he is a little out to lunch 1. we have Price in net 2. we have PK on the blue line (& a few other VERY good d-men) stopping goals is NOT our problem... it's GETTING goals.... #1 priority he "should" have, is getting Stamkos (goals)... & picking up a goal scorer in the draft (@9 or or "above") I, like Bergevin, see value in building from the net out and having a strong D. But we have several puck-movers and we do have a pretty decent D corps. What we don't have is a system and the coaches to make efficient use of those D men. It doesn't help to have so many mobile D men who can make great passes if you demand they dump it out along the boards most of the time. Right now, our bigger need is for offensive support. We have Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Plekanec, and Eller, and then we have a number of younger players whom Therrien appears afraid to use. Instead, he's inserted pluggers like Weise, Byron, Mitchell, Flynn, DSP, Matteau, DLR, and Danault up and down his line-up, and it's not working. Part of the solution lies within, giving more opportunity to the likes of Hudon, McCarron, Scherbak, Andrighetto, and so on. And the other part requires MB to use the remaining cap room to find a Stamkos, Okposo, Eriksson, Ladd, or Brouwer to supplement what we have already. This is a far greater need than finding another #4 or #5 D man right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimaas Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 So far, offers we have been rumored to get - Draisaitl and the 4th overall for Subban and the 9th - Horvat, Tanev, and the 5th overall for Subban - Trouba and the 2nd overall for Subban and the 9th None of those offers would be enough to make me want to move. I'll put this in perspective: if Subban were being signed as an RFA, we would get four 1st rounders in return. And that's not even something we would necessarily sign off on. So to move Subban, the equivalent of four 1st rounders is a minimum starting point for me. Again, count the number of true #1 defencemen in the league (maybe a dozen) and count the number who are right-handed (maybe 3-4). Subban is a rare gem, and he's in his prime and signed long-term. That's about as good a player as you can possibly acquire. So if I were looking at those three teams potentially making offers to us, what would be a starting point? - Edm: Draisaitl, Hall, Nurse, and the 4th overall (4 first rounders) - Van: nothing... they just don't have anything worth talking about. - Wpg: Scheifele, Trouba, Petan, and the 2nd overall (4 first rounders) And in none of those deals would I be sending our 9th overall as well. Subban alone is better than any player coming through the draft right now and he's a sure thing, not a guess as to what kind of career he will have. Clb has also been rumored to be shopping their 3rd overall, and to me, any deal with them would need to include Seth Jones, the 3rd overall, and another player like Jenner or Reichel. The asking price is high, but it should be high for a player like Subban who's a top 10 player and top 3 defenceman in the league IMO. Agreed on all points, especially the bolded part. If thats true (that the offer has our #9 going back the other way) its ludicrous. The ONLY way I see this having a hope of making sense for us is if we get some quality young bodies and retain our #9 so we can draft the best available defensman. Then we try to sign a couple of quality veteran dmen to fill in until this year's #1 is ready. Even then, none of this makes sense to me. Trading PK would be just one notch below trading Price - both of which are absolutely nuts imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Lebrun reporting Habs and Ducks talking Fowler again.. I'm not sold on Fowler as a must-add and what we must remember is that if we add a 4th D man whom we want to keep in the expansion draft (I'm assuming right now we're covering Subban and Petry by virtue of they're NMC's as well as Beaulieu) then we either have to expose one of them or else we lose the ability to protect 3 forwards (7 goes down to 1). There's not big value to chase a D man via trade right now, as we'd have to give up the assets to get Fowler AND we risk losing either him or Beaulieu for nothing next year. In other rumors, teams that have confirmed interest in Stamkos now up to TB, Det, Buf, Tor, NYI, NYR, Van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Regis2 Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Stamkos No mention of Montreal http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/25/competition-to-land-steven-stamkos-will-be-stiff Other FA's to watch http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/26/steven-stamkos-and-6-other-ufas-to-keep-an-eye-on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Stamkos No mention of Montreal http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/25/competition-to-land-steven-stamkos-will-be-stiff Other FA's to watch http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/26/steven-stamkos-and-6-other-ufas-to-keep-an-eye-on 1. Written by the Toronto Sun 2. They've basically named the teams who have claimed interest publicly in Stamkos. Doesn't mean other teams aren't interested. Bergevin was in on Vanek and no one had us as even a top 5 team in those sweepstakes until the trade broke. So maybe he just plays his cards a bit closer to his chest than loudmouths like Tim Murray and Jim Benning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Interesting comment from Peter Chiarelli today, when he said he was pushing hard for a #1 defenceman, preferably a right-handed shot and he noted that there were "maybe 12 tru number one defencemen in the league." That just goes to show you the value Subban brings to the team and how dumb it would be to trade him for a forward or picks. If I look through the league, these are the players i would consider to be true number one D men, meaning they can play 25+ a night, be rolled out in any situation, and be a #1 guy on essentially any team in the league: - Subban - Karlsson - Doughty - Keith - Pietrangelo - Suter - Hedman - Weber - McDonagh - Letang - Ekman-Larsson Also want to point out that very few of these #1 D men have ever changed teams. In fact, only two have: Suter, because Nashville is a small-market team that couldn't afford to pay him (but not because they actively traded him away), and McDonagh, because Gainey made a big mistake and even then this was done at a time when McDonagh wasn't established in the NHL. But none of these guys is considered to be available in a trade, with the exception of possibly Subban if you believe the rumors. The problem is that MB won't shoot the rumors down. Jim Rutherford came out at the draft and said "I'll tell you this once, Malkin is not being traded" and that was the end to all the speculation. Bergevin refuses to commit to his players the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Regis2 Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 1. Written by the Toronto Sun 2. They've basically named the teams who have claimed interest publicly in Stamkos. Doesn't mean other teams aren't interested. Bergevin was in on Vanek and no one had us as even a top 5 team in those sweepstakes until the trade broke. So maybe he just plays his cards a bit closer to his chest than loudmouths like Tim Murray and Jim Benning. Well, this is the Rumours Thread , and Im NOT reading any rumours of the Habs in the hunt for Stamkos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTed3 Posted June 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Well, this is the Rumours Thread , and Im NOT reading any rumours of the Habs in the hunt for Stamkos Don't have links or anything, but they've been mentioned by a few media sources and people on twitter. Not as strongly as the Sabres, Wings, Leafs, etc. but still up for discussion. And again, it's all speculation right now. These aren't lists from Stamkos about where he wants to go, these are just teams that have publicly expressed interest. I think at least 20 teams will contact the player, but we don't know who will be seriously considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1IscottieI1I Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Elliotte Friedman is saying that Vadim Shipachyov could still be able to come to the nhl regardless of his khl contract. No word of we are still the front runner. He could be a cheaper option for our top 6 than stamkos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimaas Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Elliotte Friedman is saying that Vadim Shipachyov could still be able to come to the nhl regardless of his khl contract. No word of we are still the front runner. He could be a cheaper option for our top 6 than stamkos We already got Shaw. We're set! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs_Hockey_Nutz Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Elliotte Friedman is saying that Vadim Shipachyov could still be able to come to the nhl regardless of his khl contract. No word of we are still the front runner. He could be a cheaper option for our top 6 than stamkos Can we really compare the two in any other way? We already got Shaw. We're set! Right! And Danault... (don't you know). Anything else will be icing on the cake... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Regis2 Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 Right! And Danault... (don't you know). Anything else will be icing on the cake... right? D Weise is seeking employment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs_Hockey_Nutz Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 D Weise is seeking employment Aye-Danault... It shaw looks like a possibility... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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