What do we need now?

[ramcharger440]

So looking at our lineup right now assuming all the major players are going to be here by training camp what are we missing? left wing? right wing? or do we need a center to replace Eller? we seem to have enough bodies on defence but are they the right ones? what do you guy's feel is our most pressing need on the ice?

[fnveenie]

I think it would be good to go after a 2nd line LW to play with Plekanec. I'm not big on the idea of rolling the dice on Lehkonen being ready for that role, nor do I want there to be a revolving door of wingers on the 2nd line like there was last season. I think, assuming Sergachev goes back to the OHL, another LD who is a capable puck mover and skater would be an asset as well.

[ramcharger440]

I would like to see a good left winger as well, I feel we were really let down by our lack of talent on the first two lines on the wing last year. I never felt Semin was going to be the guy I suppose he was worth a look though.

[Habberwacky]

I think we got a glimpse of what we need from Galchenyuk who finally found his confidence and should improve some more this year. If we can get that from Bealieu, Andrighetto and Carr or Reway this year we will be significantly better. While the team was awful last year the experience to keep the intensity at a higher level will be there this year. I think Bergevin's patience with our younger players is starting to show results as we have more good young players coming up to the NHL level close to being able to step in than we have had in a long time. If you asked this a month ago I would have had a long list but Mr. Bergevin has recognised some of our needs and created room on the ice and in our budget to let this transpire.

I think Shaw will fit in well here, but Dannault may strugglee to find a role. I was very impressed by some of our youth last year when they stepped in but was not too happy when they looked better than some of our more experienced players.

I think Petry needs to rebound from a dismal and injury plagued year or we will need to move him. I think we need to keep Sergachev up with us and that Pateryn may need to be traded to make room for him. If the kid is as close to NHL ready as they are saying I think sending him back to junior will be a big waist of time. We can slowly increase his playing time and pairings as he progresses on the big club.

[habs_93]

I think we got a glimpse of what we need from Galchenyuk who finally found his confidence

It's not so much "finding confidence" as "not being actively prevented from playing quality 5-on-5 and power play minutes with top 6 players".

Galchenyuk played 270.6 minutes of 5-on-5 with Pacioretty in 2015-16, compared to 157.48 in 2014-15 (these figures are from http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/), approaching double. Less time with Gallagher, naturally, as Gallagher was injured a bit. But significantly less time around bottom six players without real offensive ability.

Galchenyuk's "emergence" could've happened two seasons ago were it not for Michel Therrien's hideous mismanagement of this team.

[Guest]

What do we need now??? Same thing we needed last March,,,,, a new coach.

[eldag]

A player's strike or owner's lockout and a cancelled season ........

[Habberwacky]

It's not so much "finding confidence" as "not being actively prevented from playing quality 5-on-5 and power play minutes with top 6 players".

Galchenyuk played 270.6 minutes of 5-on-5 with Pacioretty in 2015-16, compared to 157.48 in 2014-15 (these figures are from http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/), approaching double. Less time with Gallagher, naturally, as Gallagher was injured a bit. But significantly less time around bottom six players without real offensive ability.

Galchenyuk's "emergence" could've happened two seasons ago were it not for Michel Therrien's hideous mismanagement of this team.

This is an easy out, but Galchenyuk is nowhere near who he was two years ago or at the start of last year. Easy to speculate and blame coaches. I prefer to keep then out of it and let Galchenyuk take the credit for the work he has done. My eyes tell a different story. Now if we just play Sergachev 30 minutes a night he'll be s good as PK and Weber. Is it really this simple, Let's review the long list of young playes these coaches have destroyed, although many have now failed evrywhere they have gone. Players get credit or not, for their career. They get good money to play and do their job. Some succeed some don't. If he wants those minutes hopefully he takes them like he started to do at the end of the year.

A player's strike or owner's lockout and a cancelled season ........

Expos thread? Yeah I'm not over that baseball fiasco either lol

[tony5775]

We need proof that Price is actually 100% healthy. If he is then the season will be a great one.

[ramcharger440]

This is an easy out, but Galchenyuk is nowhere near who he was two years ago or at the start of last year. Easy to speculate and blame coaches. I prefer to keep then out of it and let Galchenyuk take the credit for the work he has done. My eyes tell a different story. Now if we just play Sergachev 30 minutes a night he'll be s good as PK and Weber. Is it really this simple, Let's review the long list of young playes these coaches have destroyed, although many have now failed evrywhere they have gone. Players get credit or not, for their career. They get good money to play and do their job. Some succeed some don't. If he wants those minutes hopefully he takes them like he started to do at the end of the year.

Expos thread? Yeah I'm not over that baseball fiasco either lol

Yep some folks just can't move on.... galchenyuk got the minutes he deserved at the end of the season and he was a rockstar, if he does not get them this year then we have a real problem. as for a strike lockout or cancelled season I am pretty excited to see our new lineup I just hope we have one or two more moves coming.

[roy_133]

To be a real contender, top pairing left D to facilitate Weber like he had in Nashville (who can skate), 3rd line, 2-way C, potentially a 2nd line LW and to find a way to stop getting pummeled possession wise, which isn't only a player/personnel issue

[ramcharger440]

To be a real contender, top pairing left D to facilitate Weber like he had in Nashville (who can skate), 3rd line, 2-way C, potentially a 2nd line LW and to find a way to stop getting pummeled possession wise, which isn't only a player/personnel issue

Great points!

[CANADIENS27]

The biggest need is an owner who can stand up to the French media, one that is willing to scrap the team's current hiring practices.

[BigTed3]

To be a real contender, top pairing left D to facilitate Weber like he had in Nashville (who can skate), 3rd line, 2-way C, potentially a 2nd line LW and to find a way to stop getting pummeled possession wise, which isn't only a player/personnel issue

Right, ideally we would need all of those things. But in order of importance,

1. A new coach who puts players in the right spots, doesn't play pluggers in scorers roles and keep scorers in the pressbox. A guy who has a better system, gets the PP going, gets the breakout sorted out... that's the easiest fix to make for the biggest impact.

2. The 2nd line LW. Our top 6 right now includes Pacman, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Radulov, and maybe but not ideally Plekanec. But the LW spot is a question mark on the second line. It could be a rookie steps up, but it'll be hard to count on. Still, I'd rather that than seeing Shaw, Flynn, or Byron in that role. Acquiring a bona fide 2nd liner solves that issue.

3. The LD to go with Weber could potentially be Beaulieu, it really depends on his development. We have enough internal spare parts to patch our way through this if the system is better. But yes, in an ideal world, we trade one of Markov or Emelin and get an upgrade on the left side.

4. Ideally, Plekanec becomes the 3C despite his salary. If not, it comes down to Danault or DD or DLR or McCarron to fill the role. Again, it's doable, but you need to shift how you use your players. If it's DD or Mac, you need to go three scoring lines and try to exploit match-ups, like we did with Fleischmann-DD-Weise. If it's Danault or DLR, then you need to really get lots of offence from the top 6 and strictly play line 3 in a defensive role.

[jedimaas]

1. A new coach who puts players in the right spots, doesn't play pluggers in scorers roles and keep scorers in the pressbox. A guy who has a better system, gets the PP going, gets the breakout sorted out... that's the easiest fix to make for the biggest impact.

Im hopeful we already have this if Muller - who is an associate coach, not just an assistant, meaning he should have a fair amount of input, according to Bergevin - is allowed to have some say in the matter.

2. The 2nd line LW. Our top 6 right now includes Pacman, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Radulov, and maybe but not ideally Plekanec. But the LW spot is a question mark on the second line. It could be a rookie steps up, but it'll be hard to count on. Still, I'd rather that than seeing Shaw, Flynn, or Byron in that role. Acquiring a bona fide 2nd liner solves that issue.

I think we do have a guy who can step into that role. Hudon appears ready and if not, then Andrighetto. I think that if we truly play the Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Radulov line like a real #1 line, our 2nd line can afford to have one of those rookies on it.

Do you not count McCarron in our top 6? I do, but im not sure at which position. I could live with him at 2nd C especially if Plekanec runs the shut down line & gets decent minutes (see below).

3. The LD to go with Weber could potentially be Beaulieu, it really depends on his development. We have enough internal spare parts to patch our way through this if the system is better. But yes, in an ideal world, we trade one of Markov or Emelin and get an upgrade on the left side.

I truly believe Beau can do it. He's a ridiculously good skater and seems to have good vision/anticipation. A good coach could make a system for those two (Beau/Weber) work well together. lets hope they can figure that out.

Alternately, as you said, we could probably move a guy like Emelin + _____ and, if our pro scouting is on the ball, bring back a good young defensman who can maybe step in. We dont need a scoring LD we need a very mobile one with good vision. There are guys out there available, im sure.

4. Ideally, Plekanec becomes the 3C despite his salary. If not, it comes down to Danault or DD or DLR or McCarron to fill the role. Again, it's doable, but you need to shift how you use your players. If it's DD or Mac, you need to go three scoring lines and try to exploit match-ups, like we did with Fleischmann-DD-Weise. If it's Danault or DLR, then you need to really get lots of offence from the top 6 and strictly play line 3 in a defensive role.

Agree completely. Of course had we traded Plekanec (most likely would have gotten a better return) then Eller would be our guy but such is life.

If we set our lines up a little differently than most teams we could have Patches - Galchenyuk - Radulov as our bonefide #1 playing in all situations. Hudon/Andrighetto - McCarron - Gallagher gets carefully selected exploitation minutes and Danault - Plekanec - Shaw take the heavy lifting defensive matchups.

thats actually a pretty strong top 9 if you play it that way. Of course, we most likely wont.

[Noob616]

I'm not just being difficult here but the team really needs a #1D. Markov and Weber are good but don't drive possession anymore. Habs are back to essentially the same D from a few years ago.

2016 Andrei Markov is 2009 Mathieu Schenider, Barberio is Gorges, Petry is Hamrlik, and Shea Weber is Sheldon Souray. Emelin is Toronto Mike Komisarek. Beaulieu might become 2010 James Wisniewski if we're lucky.

[BigTed3]

I'm not just being difficult here but the team really needs a #1D. Markov and Weber are good but don't drive possession anymore. Habs are back to essentially the same D from a few years ago.

2016 Andrei Markov is 2009 Mathieu Schenider, Barberio is Gorges, Petry is Hamrlik, and Shea Weber is Sheldon Souray. Emelin is Toronto Mike Komisarek. Beaulieu might become 2010 James Wisniewski if we're lucky.

I think we'll need a #1 guy soon enough, but I do believe Weber is a #1 guy for now, maybe for another 2-3 years. He's not as good as Subban, but it's important to separate the disappointment of downgrading for no reason with an objective evaluation of the player we got in return. Weber is one of the top 30 defencemen in the NHL right now, so that makes him a #1 guy.

[Noob616]

I think we'll need a #1 guy soon enough, but I do believe Weber is a #1 guy for now, maybe for another 2-3 years. He's not as good as Subban, but it's important to separate the disappointment of downgrading for no reason with an objective evaluation of the player we got in return. Weber is one of the top 30 defencemen in the NHL right now, so that makes him a #1 guy.

I don't agree, again I am really not trying to just be contrarian for its own sake but I geninuely don't think Weber is even in the top 60 anymore.

Not sure if you read/speak french but here: http://tinyurl.com/hbz9nt8is an article outlining his decline. Shea Weber today is not "Shea Weber", Weber during his prime was basically diet Chris Pronger. Weber in 2016 is a (better) version of Sheldon Souray when he was with the Habs. Weber can still play but he isn't able to drive possession anymore for big minutes. This is salvageable if the pairings are Markov-Petry and Beaulieu-Weber, but still really not good enough to contend IMO. If the top pairing ends up being Markov-Weber this team will get cratered and need another .935 year from Price. If it ends up being Markov-Weber and Emelin-Petry it's going to be hilarious.

He has an elite shot, great physical presence, elite offensive zone instincts, but slow footspeed means he's not very effective 5 on 5 anymore. Weber was genuinely a top 5 defender 4 or 5 years ago; in the Vancouver 2010 era he was as good as everyone thinks he is. Problem is that 6 years later, he's now 31 instead of 25 and his possession game has fallen off a cliff. He's still elite in the offensive zone and on the power play, but his defensive game is rapidly declining and his possession game is very bad.

[ramcharger440]

There are all kinds of comparisons online one of them shows how much his game has dropped off with his last partner while he still looks good with other partners. just look at how good Marky made folks look for years it goes both ways. i really feel like Beaulieu and him will make a great duo i hope we get a look at that. i think your assesment of Webber is too harsh it is not like he is as old as Marky!

[habs_93]

Yeah. The contrast between Subban and Weber is pretty severe, and it'll be made all the more obvious due to Therrien. I can think of at least 15 defencemen offhand who I'd rank higher than Weber. The legend of Shea Weber is not what we're getting. It will take massive, massive leaps in performance from other players to make an appreciable dent in the sizable hole we've dug for ourselves.

[Noob616]

There are all kinds of comparisons online one of them shows how much his game has dropped off with his last partner while he still looks good with other partners. just look at how good Marky made folks look for years it goes both ways. i really feel like Beaulieu and him will make a great duo i hope we get a look at that. i think your assesment of Webber is too harsh it is not like he is as old as Marky!

Yes, I'm sympathetic to an argument that Weber's talent level isn't as bad as his current possession numbers show and that Laviolette's system/usage made him look worse than he is. However, I'm not sure how much I like that argument when other #1 defensemen can play well next to an inanimate carbon rod and drive possession. Brian Campbell made Tom Gilbert look like a top pairing guy. Subban drove possession as well as prime Shea Weber in 2011-12 with Hal Gill on his side, and made Gorges and a 35+ Markov look like top pairing guys. Erik Karlsson makes Marc Methot look like a top pairing guy. The best defenders drive possession on their own, and Subban was one of the precious few players that can do that no matter the situation. Weber probably isn't that guy anymore.

You're right that he's not as old as Markov but he plays a very different game. Markov and guys like Lidstrom, Duncan Keith, Brian Campbell, etc. are the types of players who can be effective well into their 30s, they rely on elite puck moving skills, vision, and positioning. Weber relied on his immense physical strength, he has an elite shot, elite physicality, elite size, and the combination of it made him elite when he was in his prime. Issue with a player like Weber at 31 is that once you lose that half a step with age, it doesn't work anymore, he isn't fast enough to rely on his still elite physicality the way he once did. Markov has declined far more linearly, and really it was only last season where he started to look out of place in the top 4.

I don't think I'm being too harsh with Weber though, I still think he's a very good but not great and certainly not elite player. I don't dislike the player as a person or as a player, I think he'll be a lot of fun to watch on a power play with Markov, Galchenyuk, and Radulov. What I dispute is the as mentioned above "legend of Shea Weber", the idea that he's this god among defenseman and a frilly little puck handler like Subban can never compare. He once was actually that good, his peak in 2010 to 2012 was incredible, but he's no longer that player. Shea Weber is billed as a Chris Pronger successor, when at this stage in his career he's a better version of Sheldon Souray. That's not a bad thing either, Souray was a very good player with the Habs, and Weber is certainly better than he was. But you don't trade the 2nd best defenseman on earth for him.

[ramcharger440]

2nd best defenceman on earth? as you dispute Webber so will I dispute that. last season was not a great one for Subban perhaps he peaked and is now on his decline. Lol, despair all you like I will wait till I can see real results on the ice. with the mix of young fast d men we have I am sure ancient crusty worn out over the hill over hyped Webber will be great for us.

[Noob616]

2nd best defenceman on earth? as you dispute Webber so will I dispute that. last season was not a great one for Subban perhaps he peaked and is now on his decline. Lol, despair all you like I will wait till I can see real results on the ice. with the mix of young fast d men we have I am sure ancient crusty worn out over the hill over hyped Webber will be great for us.

His season was fine, his shot rates were pretty similar to any other year but playing in front of three AHL goalies impacted his GA numbers. Whatever, I'll leave the Subban stuff alone because I don't feel like rehashing the same things I've been saying about possession and his skill moving the puck for half a decade now.

What young fast D-men? Beaulieu is literally the only one. Markov is very slow, Weber and Emelin are slow, Barberio and Pateryn have average speed, Petry is a good skater but really not all that fast. I agree, Beaulieu-Weber would be a good pairing, but do you believe for a second that Therrien is going to give Beaulieu top pairing minutes? They went out and got a name brand star defenseman, he's going to get 24+ minutes a night in all situations. I really do not imagine Therrien would be comfortable giving those minutes to Beaulieu, as evidenced by...his entire body of work. They are going to run Markov-Weber until it clearly doesn't work, and then run Emelin-Weber after that.

Please stop pretending I said Weber is a geriatric with 2 years left in the NHL. What I said was that he's no longer elite outside of his offense/PP game, and that he's very clearly inferior to Subban. Yes, he is over the hill, basically every NHL player besides Joe Thornton declines from age 31 on. Even Gretzky, he averaged 190 points in his age 19-24 years and then only broke 100 once after he turned 31. "Over the hill" doesn't mean garbage, it means "peaked and will now decline with age instead of improving" which really shouldn't be controversial. Why is it so controversial to say that Shea Weber at Vancouver when he was 25 or Weber in Sochi at age 29 isn't the same player as Weber aged 31?

[roy_133]

The risk is that while we know he has and will continue to regress, what speed will it take place? I mean, we've seen great DMen in their early 30's fall off a cliff and we've seen some be like, 85-90% of their prime selves. Either way though, I think everyone would agree that the older a player gets as he approaches and enters his 30s, the higher the risk in terms of performance drop off.

Peak play is getting earlier and earlier in the NHL, probably because the game is so speed dominated.

[jedimaas]

The risk is that while we know he has and will continue to regress, what speed will it take place? I mean, we've seen great DMen in their early 30's fall off a cliff and we've seen some be like, 85-90% of their prime selves. Either way though, I think everyone would agree that the older a player gets as he approaches and enters his 30s, the higher the risk in terms of performance drop off.

Peak play is getting earlier and earlier in the NHL, probably because the game is so speed dominated.

Bingo.

Which is exactly why we should have gotten Weber + Kamenev, Trenin or at very least Dougherty to offset Subban's age difference. If nothing else it should have been Weber + 1st - Especially since we now know it was Poile who targetted Subban, not the other way around.