Marc Bergevin and staff 2017-18

[kinot-2]

1 hour ago, HabsRuleForever said:

Right away. #blamekinot

Goes without sayin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,jus sayin is all.

[jennifer_rocket]

Perhaps if we 2-7-1 in our NEXT 10 games... Bergevin will lose his job. 

[jeff33]

2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Perhaps if we 2-7-1 in our NEXT 10 games... Bergevin will lose his job. 

thats why im cheering every loss. much like therrien, any misleading success just lengthens this guys leash and lengthens our misery. crash and burn baby! 

[kinot-2]

2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Perhaps if we 2-7-1 in our NEXT 10 games... Bergevin will lose his job. 

If MB gets fired,,,, who will you replace him with? Will the new GM be on the same page as CJ? Will a committee find a new GM, like last time? How many bilingual "possible" GMs are out there, cuz you just know we (ahem), need a bilingual GM. 

[Habs=stanleycup]

Just now, kinot-2 said:

If MB gets fired,,,, who will you replace him with? Will the new GM be on the same page as CJ? Will a committee find a new GM, like last time? How many bilingual "possible" GMs are out there, cuz you just know we (ahem), need a bilingual GM. 

Petty politics is part of what's killing this team.

[HabsRuleForever]

6 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

If MB gets fired,,,, who will you replace him with? Will the new GM be on the same page as CJ? Will a committee find a new GM, like last time? How many bilingual "possible" GMs are out there, cuz you just know we (ahem), need a bilingual GM. 

Well St. Patrick of course!

[jennifer_rocket]

1 hour ago, kinot-2 said:

If MB gets fired,,,, who will you replace him with? Will the new GM be on the same page as CJ? Will a committee find a new GM, like last time? How many bilingual "possible" GMs are out there, cuz you just know we (ahem), need a bilingual GM. 

Ugh... I don't know?  I mean, you could simply promote Timmins for the time being. Provide him with a clear "rebuild" mandate to work with for the remainder of the year. Worry about finding a permanent replacement in the offseason.

[kinot-2]

Just now, jennifer_rocket said:

Ugh... I don't know?  I mean, you could simply promote Timmins for the time being. Provide him with a clear "rebuild" mandate to work with for the remainder of the year. Worry about finding a permanent replacement in the offseason.

Ya mean similar to the Cunneyworth situation? If Timmins "did" start a rebuild during the season, and then is replaced in the off-season, then the new GM might not agree with the work that Timmins had done.

[maas_art]

4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Perhaps if we 2-7-1 in our NEXT 10 games... Bergevin will lose his job. 

I think thats what it will take to be honest.

Right now I dont think Bergevin is in any danger.  There's lots of ways to explain the losses, make excuses and say that things will 'turn around' - and maybe they will.  Its clear we're having incredibly bad luck but as each game goes by our confidence sinks down with that luck and that cant be a good combination.

I am guessing that Molson has *consdered* who the replacement for Bergevin will be, but at present isnt thinking too hard about making a change.

[maas_art]

27 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Ugh... I don't know?  I mean, you could simply promote Timmins for the time being. Provide him with a clear "rebuild" mandate to work with for the remainder of the year. Worry about finding a permanent replacement in the offseason.

I actually think that would be a brilliant move.  Timmins seems to be the single best person in our organization at assessing talent.  Many times he shortlisted players (that went on to be stars) but MB chose to go with the safe pick instead.  

I think TImmins has a list of young players out there that he would demand as part of the deal  in trades for vets like Patches, Weber etc and would do very very well.  Im not sure how the rest of his skillset is - whether he can manage a cap, deal with rosters etc, but id be willing to give him a try.  There's also Rick Dudley but im not sure how much of what MB has done has had RD's approval.   Neither are french of course but i think they (Molson) may consider a non french GM if he was promoted from within. 

[Noob616]

Most realistic replacement is Julien Brisebois (AGM in Tampa Bay), I know people will be mad about another Francophone but he's probably the most qualified guy around that's ready to make the jump from AGM to GM. He's only 40, has a background in law, and never "played the game", so it's not like we'd be rehashing another former Hab or a career 3rd pairing defenseman as the GM. Honestly I don't think MB's very safe at this point. In two consecutive off-seasons he's made big moves and three fan favourites are gone (Subban, Markov, Radulov). I think people love Drouin and general opinion among Habs fans probably still favours Weber over Subban but in terms of the excitement and storyline I don't think the fanbase has embraced Weber like Subban. It feels kinda like a "You're not my dad!" thing :lol:. Price getting sarcastic cheers for stopping a 200-foot dump in is a worrying sign if I spent half a billion dollars on the team a few years ago.

Like if the team goes out in the first round again I don't know how you sell ownership on continuing to stay the course, the team under Bergevin peaked in 2014 making the 3rd round and lost after Kreider took out Price. Then they lost in the 2nd round to the Lightning the next year. I think he's probably been excused for the blow-up year in 15-16 since there were so many crazy injuries, but after he moved his #1D and really seemed to finally build the team in his own vision they fizzled out in the 1st round and have started this year 2-7-1. I just don't know how you look at that trajectory, the Habs have had progressively worse results since 2014 even after making multiple "win now" moves. If we traded for Weber, Drouin, and Shaw to "win now" and we aren't winning, where do you go from there? 

[H_T_L]

21 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

 

Like if the team goes out in the first round again I don't know how you sell ownership on continuing to stay the course, the team under Bergevin peaked in 2014 making the 3rd round and lost after Kreider took out Price. Then they lost in the 2nd round to the Lightning the next year. I think he's probably been excused for the blow-up year in 15-16 since there were so many crazy injuries, but after he moved his #1D and really seemed to finally build the team in his own vision they fizzled out in the 1st round and have started this year 2-7-1. I just don't know how you look at that trajectory, the Habs have had progressively worse results since 2014 even after making multiple "win now" moves. If we traded for Weber, Drouin, and Shaw to "win now" and we aren't winning, where do you go from there? 

At  our current pace, I don't think we need to worry about being ousted in the 1st round.

[BigTed3]

47 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

Most realistic replacement is Julien Brisebois (AGM in Tampa Bay), I know people will be mad about another Francophone but he's probably the most qualified guy around that's ready to make the jump from AGM to GM. He's only 40, has a background in law, and never "played the game", so it's not like we'd be rehashing another former Hab or a career 3rd pairing defenseman as the GM. Honestly I don't think MB's very safe at this point. In two consecutive off-seasons he's made big moves and three fan favourites are gone (Subban, Markov, Radulov). I think people love Drouin and general opinion among Habs fans probably still favours Weber over Subban but in terms of the excitement and storyline I don't think the fanbase has embraced Weber like Subban. It feels kinda like a "You're not my dad!" thing :lol:. Price getting sarcastic cheers for stopping a 200-foot dump in is a worrying sign if I spent half a billion dollars on the team a few years ago.

Like if the team goes out in the first round again I don't know how you sell ownership on continuing to stay the course, the team under Bergevin peaked in 2014 making the 3rd round and lost after Kreider took out Price. Then they lost in the 2nd round to the Lightning the next year. I think he's probably been excused for the blow-up year in 15-16 since there were so many crazy injuries, but after he moved his #1D and really seemed to finally build the team in his own vision they fizzled out in the 1st round and have started this year 2-7-1. I just don't know how you look at that trajectory, the Habs have had progressively worse results since 2014 even after making multiple "win now" moves. If we traded for Weber, Drouin, and Shaw to "win now" and we aren't winning, where do you go from there? 

This team is definitely built now in the image of Marc Bergevin and yet the more it heads towards a Bergevin-style team and the further it gets away from the one BG/PG envisioned, the worse the team gets. Much of this team's success in recent years came despite its coach and because it had star players (Price, Subban, Pacioretty) leading the way through their prime years. Now, the best players are a little bit older (Price, Pacioretty, Weber, Plekanec, Petry, etc.) and the club's poor drafting and development is catching up to them. There was literally no one in the pipeline on defence coming into training camp this season, so much so that a junior-age player got 1st-pairing duty. Bergevin has completely turned over the defence in a little over two years and it's entirely of his own making via trades and free agent signings, but it's hard to fathom how many of these players would even get jobs with other teams right now. We know no one wanted Streit, and I can't see big line-ups to grab the likes of Morrow or Davidson (albeit the latter has played pretty well the past 2 weeks), nor Alzner on his current contract. Petry this season has started to look like Roman Hamrlik or Tomas Kaberle hitting their declines, and those happened very quickly. And Weber's got that monstrous contract that could prove to be an obstacle too. The short of it is that the defence is a mess, and including the missing Schlemko, you'd have to figure at least 6 of the 8 guys are likely going to be worse next year than they are this year (Mete and maybe Davidson being the exceptions). All the others are past prime (whether playing well or not currently) or haven't ever really put it together convincingly. So not only is this D corps that Marc Bergevin built really inept at moving the puck and creating offence and skating, it's also getting worse as time goes on.

So like you said, if MB went all in and his team not only didn't get there, it's actually gotten worse, then what's next? Right now, it feels like MB is racking up debt at the casino and he keeps throwing more money in to try and make it back to break-even. Getting older with Weber for Subban wasn't enough? Let's dump Eller for Shaw. Let's sign Alzner and get Schlemko. Dump Beaulieu. Trade Pateryn for the older Benn. Get rid of Tinordi for Bartley. How many other young D men just never worked out? Darren Dietz. Mac Bennett. Dalton Thrower. Josiah Didier. Joel Hanley. Davis Drewiske. Morgan Ellis. Mark Barberio. Zach Redmond. Brendon Nash. Magnus Nygren. At some point, you have to look at this list and wonder how the Habs have failed to graduate so many of their D prospects and why they've been forced to build a makeshift D with spare parts. Even now, I'm not sure where the next wave of defencemen is coming from if we do decide to trade or walk away from the likes of Weber, Petry, Benn, Alzner, Morrow, and Schlemko.

Up front, there are some good young players, but no true centermen. And it's hard to believe you'll win a Cup without a well-built defence AND without any kind of center play in your top 6. Those are probably the two positions that have been most important at driving Cup wins in the past two decades, not goalies and certainly not wingers alone. So yes, MB has huge problems here, and both his current line-up as well as the relief he has built up in the organization both appear to be less stacked than they did 4-5 years ago. Maybe the plan had been to take a run at Stamkos and it didn't work out. Maybe he is hoping to use his cap space on Tavares and/or John Carlson. But you can't hedge your team''s success on being able to sign just-past-their-prime players for big money and long-term deals. There's no secret that success comes to those organizations that can draft well and build their clubs with young, fast, skilled players on cheap entry-level contracts. The number of players under the age of 23 who are now focal pieces of their team's rosters has shot up, and Bergevin has to adapt to building his line-up that way, not focusing on 30 year-old acquisitions from other squads.

[Habs=stanleycup]

Any other GM would have been fired a long ago for his continuous blunders starting with Subban. It's evident Molson is protecting him, even at the expense of the fans. It's a sad state of affairs for this team when politics dominate as a goal rather than the Stanley Cup itself.

[ramcharger440]

I am one who tends to give the benefit of the doubt to a GM and in some cases a coach but this is a total mess! there is litreally no excuse for the way this defence corps has been assembled none. as for the forwards i don't really have a problem with not signing Radulov for big cash long term but losing him hurts, he brought a toughness and energy to our top lines that is sorely missing this year. not having replacements ready for the loss of Rads and Markov and starting the season with the holes we have and all that money left over should be enough to get dismissed after our disaster of a start, but to put a cherry on top of the sunday the bad judgement shown by bringing in Streit and Hemsky and Alzner  as replacements is just stunning! then to sit in front of the media and try to sell the idea that our D corps is improved! give me a break! we have a 19 year old on our first pairing! he is a good one but still! we are slower softer and pretty much useless. he needs to go i think most of his assistants need to go too. i am not sold on CJ yet and i have never liked JJ as the d coach. i tend to agree with some on here it may be time to make some major moves but i am less than optimistic that MB can or would do a good job of getting value back in those trades.

[Habs=stanleycup]

Bergevin said he “kicked tires” on a lot of free agents this summer and made some “really, really good offers,” but the players decided they didn’t want to come to Montreal “for whatever reason.” That left the dapper GM with a lot of money sitting in his pockets.

One has to wonder why players don't want to come to Montreal.

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/stu-cowan-the-8-5-million-question-remains-for-canadiens

[maas_art]

3 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Bergevin said he “kicked tires” on a lot of free agents this summer and made some “really, really good offers,” but the players decided they didn’t want to come to Montreal “for whatever reason.” That left the dapper GM with a lot of money sitting in his pockets.

One has to wonder why players don't want to come to Montreal.

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/stu-cowan-the-8-5-million-question-remains-for-canadiens

The big problem with this statement isnt that we didnt land any great free agents, its that MB thought there were any free agents of value this summer who would have made a difference.   The biggest holes on our roster were top 2 centre and left handed puck moving defensmen. There were none available via UFA.  MB should have been able to see that even before July1 and should have been working the phones for trades. No help was coming via UFA. 

[BigTed3]

11 minutes ago, maas_art said:

The big problem with this statement isnt that we didnt land any great free agents, its that MB thought there were any free agents of value this summer who would have made a difference.   The biggest holes on our roster were top 2 centre and left handed puck moving defensmen. There were none available via UFA.  MB should have been able to see that even before July1 and should have been working the phones for trades. No help was coming via UFA. 

Not only that, but the guy MB thought was the biggest fish to go after (i.e. his number one priority) was Alzner. The reports were all out well before July 1st that Alzner and the Habs were interested in each other, and that was the move MB chose to secure first, before finalizing deals with Radulov or Markov or whoever else. In general, July 1st is a difficult way to build a team. It should really only be used to add supplemental help for specific areas but very rarely your core; however you absolutely cannot overspend on depth players (neither in money nor term) and MB has been guilty of doing both repeatedly. He made a play for Drouin, but was he in on Hamonic? How hard did he push for Brodin or Dumba or one of the Wild D men when that team was clearly in trouble trying to protect players from the ED? MB had two ins there: he could have traded with Minnesota or he could have made an offer to Las Vegas that was better than what the Wild offered Vegas. He did neither. The same goes for Anaheim and trying to wrestle Shea Theodore or Vatanen away.

I fully believe that no team is giving away their good players for free but other teams are making trades and finding talent, so it's out there. Dallas was in a similar predicament of having no top 6 centers a few years ago and they managed to acquire Tyler Seguin and Jason Spezza. Guys like Seth Jones and Phil Kessel and Filip Forsberg and Nino Niederreiter and Taylor Hall and Dougie Hamilton have all been available in trades recently, just as a few examples. So there are guys out there if you're willing to give up picks or prospects or re-shape your line-up. If MB chose to give up Pacioretty or Weber, he could easily get 3, 4, or maybe even 5 key pieces back that could help us for longer. He simply has to be open to re-thinking his plan, but instead he's stuck with this grit and character approach and it just hasn't paid off. I've gone over this before, but look at his acquisitions over the past 18 months... Ott, Streit, Hemsky, Martinsen, King, Morrow, Nesterov, etc... I'd argue that not only have these players not helped, they've actually made us worse by taking away playing time and development opportunity from younger skilled players. You wonder why we just didn't develop anyone under Therrien? Because we were constantly plugging holes with washed up vets instead of giving younger guys a chance. No doubt this needs to change ASAP.

[habby67]

Ever GM, since Pollock, has been genetically engineered and trained by the rest of the NHL, to destroy the franchise. Damn karma. It's a conspiracy.

[RuudNuij]

On 28-10-2017 at 1:48 AM, BigTed3 said:

He simply has to be open to re-thinking his plan, but instead he's stuck with this grit and character approach and it just hasn't paid off. I've gone over this before, but look at his acquisitions over the past 18 months... Ott, Streit, Hemsky, Martinsen, King, Morrow, Nesterov, etc... I'd argue that not only have these players not helped, they've actually made us worse by taking away playing time and development opportunity from younger skilled players. You wonder why we just didn't develop anyone under Therrien? Because we were constantly plugging holes with washed up vets instead of giving younger guys a chance. No doubt this needs to change ASAP.

I cannot believe this manager is after a Stanley Cup.

i`m not even sure he is aware of which league he plays in.

Transactions in top sports are hard to create or apply, (agreed), one must think ahead. and in having a decent team, not a great one, should this be of your first consideration.

a funny little team that can bring you wins, but needs a little more help here and there on the odd occasion things don`t go their way, .. a little spark, so to speak.

a few sparks and some decency may just get you there.

but what do you do, when you`re afraid of fire? .. again, we wait and see.

[maas_art]

This is an older article but an interesting theory.  

Is Victor Mete the Reason Mikhail Sergachev Was Traded?

The idea that Bergevin felt Mete made Sergachev expendable is one ive heard before but one thing I find quite interesting about the article is that the author feels like Mete is an Andrei Markov Clone, while Sergachev is more like Subban. I tend to agree with these assessments and since Bergevin clearly does not value Subban's game it makes you wonder if he had any qualms at all about trading Sergachev. 

I think ultimately they both will be great - and I actually dont have a problem with moving Sergachev considering the return: drouin is going to be very good for us, i am certain- but it sure would be nice to have both of them on our roster, not just 1. 

[BigTed3]

6 hours ago, maas_art said:

This is an older article but an interesting theory.  

Is Victor Mete the Reason Mikhail Sergachev Was Traded?

The idea that Bergevin felt Mete made Sergachev expendable is one ive heard before but one thing I find quite interesting about the article is that the author feels like Mete is an Andrei Markov Clone, while Sergachev is more like Subban. I tend to agree with these assessments and since Bergevin clearly does not value Subban's game it makes you wonder if he had any qualms at all about trading Sergachev. 

I think ultimately they both will be great - and I actually dont have a problem with moving Sergachev considering the return: drouin is going to be very good for us, i am certain- but it sure would be nice to have both of them on our roster, not just 1. 

I'd have a hard time believing this for the following reasons:

1. Bergevin stated that Mete surprised them and forced the Habs to make a spot for him.

2. Sergachev had a really good camp last year and didn't make it to the 9 game mark before going back to junior, so hard to believe the team was counting on a guy who performed well at junior to be a top pairing guy without any AHL/NHL experience.

3. MB had discussed (I think at the summer golf tournament or after free agency, don't remember which) how he envisioned Schlemko playing with Weber. And Alzner told the media when he signed that he was told he would be playing with either Weber or Petry.

So I really don't think the Habs had planned on using Mete in a top 4 role. It suggests more that the team envisioned a top 4 of Schlemko-Weber, Alzner-Petry and weren't really set on Mete making the team and certainly not being a key player. Like you, I have no particular issue with the Drouin-Sergachev trade. I think it might turn out to be a good deal, a win-win for both teams that in the end will be just two good players traded for each other. We had a serious need for two top 6 centers, but we also had a serious need for top 4 left-handed defencemen. It just seems odd to fill one hole by further depleting an area that's an ongoing weakness already. I think MB just really wanted Drouin because he was drooling over the idea of a French-Canadian superstar. I really wonder if it had been Sergachev for an Anglophone or European player whether the trade would have been made.

[RuudNuij]

I think the Sergachev deal was one that is turning out to be a win/win situation, and who knows, maybe they knew Mete would excel, .. but I doubt it.

after reading about the rumors of how hard it is to get (good or even better) players to make the move to Montreal (taxes, and other issues)

and, if true, he (MB) would have known this too. 

I am not resentful, and he has done good things during his years. but I feel he has broken more than he has built.

after Vanuk, Parenteau, Briere, and many others, he finally found something that could have given him (us) 3, and maybe 4 years of turning into a real contender.

I hope with all in me that Price and all others find their drive, and there will be (many) more games that the CH will show they have the GRIT and CHARACTER.

but our top 6 differs from the many (now) great teams. face it, he traded Rads for Hemsky, and just kept his fingers crossed.

 

I hope Sergachev does well, as for many others that had to leave. 

I hope our team keeps winning when it counts, and I enjoy every game I watch them when they have a will to win.

(but feel bad for the players), when they have to send this squad out when they get creamed.

Drouin is a good (maybe even great) player, Pacioretty is often good on defense, or as they say otherwise, invisible. but only greater, (or maybe just more creative) players find him, or know when to find him. he will give you goals. (and although not every game, but 30-40, is all on who you put beside him. (they call it chemistry)

Gally & Gally I believe we still need to see what they can really do, maybe Danault the same. 

Montreal sold a growing defense that really started to look like something, Price knew these people, so thereby knowing most of their weakness,

now he has to judge that all over again.

we still need some help up front, and who knows, maybe we don`t, the shots are nearly always there, .. maybe we already got what we need, but it isn`t always showing, .. maybe we have to wait another year to be sure, ..

seems we`re the Maybe Canadiens for a while yet to come, but for now I like the line changes, that they all chip in, and fit-in elsewhere, .. I like when we are competing again. 

 

 

 

[vegasrick]

Bergevin must be in a panic mode right now that Price won't be playing.  I, for one, do not believe the "lower body" injury line we're being fed.  Like BigTed, I have to wonder why Price wasn't taken out sooner if the injury was a while ago, or why he wasn't take out simply because his numbers are atrocious even if he's healthy.  MB's hopes are dwindling right in front of his eyes.  Now, the team has no good defense, no good goaltending, and hit/miss forwards with no chemistry.  Rather than trade Price, I see MB trading Galchenyuk in a panic move in order to do "something" along the lines of his usual trades (i.e., get rid of a promising asset for an unknown or a washed-up veteran), which will only make matters worse.  I see Price demanding a trade pretty soon if this horrible mismanagement continues.  

[kalevine]

one negative aspect to this recent spurt is that MB will be back to thinking (knowing) that he has assembled a good team.  They have been overachieving the last few games as they were underachieving before.  It's pretty hard to even make the playoffs with a team that is 8.5 mill under the cap.  The sad part is that with all his overspending on D, right now it's looking like the D is where most improvement is needed!