Marc Bergevin and staff 2017-18

[habs_93]

27 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

Pitts won the cup with a no name defense

The kind of chasing the "next big thing"/cargo cult thinking always confuses me. Because something worked for one team once is barely an anecdote, let alone reliable data.

[BigTed3]

2 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I actually don't get this comment? French or not Druion is an offensive player that is young with a huge upside. Trading away a top defensive prospect I don't like. That said he is still a prospect and could be Subban 2.0 or Beau 2.0 still unknown and like most defenseman may take a few years to be a top d-man if he does work out. What we have needed for years is offense. This trade does exactly that gives us offense up front. I would of loved to kept Rads but Druion is a lot younger. The fact he's French is nice for some fans but either way he addresses a need everyone has been talking about with a trade for someone who wasn't even in the line up. We have a solid defensive corp of D-man , along with Price who with his puck handling skills actually helps against for checkers. Pitts won the cup with a no name defense, yes the Preds had a mobile offensive d-corp , but everyone forgets they almost missed the playoffs to start with. With that same defense.

So you can look at this trade two ways, and both you and Regis are correct in certain ways:

- On the one hand, I like this trade in isolation for the reasons you stated: we get a relatively sure thing for a prospect who may or may not pan out. Drouin is still young and in his prime, so this is not like the awful Subban deal where we trade a star in his prime for a star past his prime.

- On the other hand, MB made this move without having a plan for how to rectify the lack of puck-moving D men in the organization. So he addressed one need (for scoring) by depleting a resource (puck-moving young D man) that we already didn't have much of. Combine that with the losses of Beaulieu and Markov, and the signing of another older, slower, defensive defenceman in Alzner, and there really doesn't seem to be much of a plan to make up for the loss of Sergachev.

So I do like the trade. But I think MB needs to do more to address the team's real needs for 1-2 scoring centers and 1-2 left-handed puck-moving D men.

1 hour ago, habs_93 said:

The kind of chasing the "next big thing"/cargo cult thinking always confuses me. Because something worked for one team once is barely an anecdote, let alone reliable data.

Our team doesn't have Crosby or Malkin, and the closest thing we have to a #1 offensive center, the team refuses to play in that role. So we can't simply bypass contributions from our D the way Pitt did. And also, winning the Cup takes a bit of luck as well. We could replay the season 100 times and 95 of those times, Pit probably doesn't win. If Nashville had won, everyone would be talking about how important D was instead.

 

[CaptWelly]

5 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

So you can look at this trade two ways, and both you and Regis are correct in certain ways:

- On the one hand, I like this trade in isolation for the reasons you stated: we get a relatively sure thing for a prospect who may or may not pan out. Drouin is still young and in his prime, so this is not like the awful Subban deal where we trade a star in his prime for a star past his prime.

- On the other hand, MB made this move without having a plan for how to rectify the lack of puck-moving D men in the organization. So he addressed one need (for scoring) by depleting a resource (puck-moving young D man) that we already didn't have much of. Combine that with the losses of Beaulieu and Markov, and the signing of another older, slower, defensive defenceman in Alzner, and there really doesn't seem to be much of a plan to make up for the loss of Sergachev.

So I do like the trade. But I think MB needs to do more to address the team's real needs for 1-2 scoring centers and 1-2 left-handed puck-moving D men.

Our team doesn't have Crosby or Malkin, and the closest thing we have to a #1 offensive center, the team refuses to play in that role. So we can't simply bypass contributions from our D the way Pitt did. And also, winning the Cup takes a bit of luck as well. We could replay the season 100 times and 95 of those times, Pit probably doesn't win. If Nashville had won, everyone would be talking about how important D was instead.

 

I agree in a lot of ways. I do think you need a balance of defense. I wish Beau had worked out for us. He may still turn out good or even a power play special teams type. Either way the way the playoffs ended with him sitting in our most important game it didn't look going forward that CJ was happy with him. I wish at least for the short term they had came to an agreement with Markov. I actually think his all around game and smarts and passing especially on the pp will be missed. I do think that this d isn't that bad though. I think the skating defense is over stated a bit also. With Price in net and this defense we should be solid. No they may not be rushing up the ice but passing head manning the puck is much faster than a guy skating it from the blue line and the forwards stopped at the other blue line instead of moving on the fly. Which as the announcers were calling chip and chase Pitts did a lot of and beat Nashville to the puck a lot. We may get lucky and have Jasek or Hussien (I know spelling is wrong) be able to jump in or someone else. I would of much rather gotten Drouin signed Rad and kept Sergachev but we didn't and I'm a little more optimistic. Gallager should be healthy I think under CJ Shaw will be more disciplined and better, Lehkonen should be better. I think Pleks will have a better year because he's have better players around him. If Hudon can make the team and maybe Mac has a solid year we could possibly play just the way we are and at the trade deadline maybe pick up a couple pieces to make a run. Weber + ? Drouin Pacs Chucky on the PP might be fun to watch! I just don't think were as far off or as doom and gloom as some.  

[Regis22]

2 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I actually don't get this comment? French or not Druion is an offensive player that is young with a huge upside.

OK , remove the " French Canadian " from my comment

I recall reading last yr MB saying something to the effect that he wouldn't mortgage ( specifically Surgachev ) the future to get some offence. And now he did it

[Regis22]

4 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

 I do think that this d isn't that bad though. I think the skating defense is over stated a bit also. With Price in net and this defense we should be solid. No they may not be rushing up the ice but passing head manning the puck is much faster than a guy skating it from the blue line and the forwards stopped at the other blue line instead of moving on the fly. Which as the announcers were calling chip and chase Pitts did a lot of and beat Nashville to the puck a lot.

I think this D stinks then again I don't know much of what these new guys can do . There aren't any young guys back there .  When they go to 3 on 3 in OT the Habs aren't going to have any D men who can skate with all that open ice

As for chipping and chasing , The Habs have been doing it for years under MT all it did was get them hemmed in their own zone

[CaptWelly]

2 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

I think this D stinks then again I don't know much of what these new guys can do . There aren't any young guys back there .  When they go to 3 on 3 in OT the Habs aren't going to have any D men who can skate with all that open ice

As for chipping and chasing , The Habs have been doing it for years under MT all it did was get them hemmed in their own zone

The chip and chase was referring to entering the other teams zone getting behind the other teams d with speed,  as I stated passing the puck moves the puck faster than skating the puck up ice as in "head manning the puck". Even at the end of last year the break outs looked better under CJ and most were moving the puck up ice. Emilen wasn't considered a skating d-man. Markov was more of a passer, so the only big difference was Beau who definitely can skate but unfortunately looked worse and worse decision wise with the puck later in the year.

[Habberwacky]

1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

I actually don't get this comment? French or not Druion is an offensive player that is young with a huge upside. Trading away a top defensive prospect I don't like. That said he is still a prospect and could be Subban 2.0 or Beau 2.0 still unknown and like most defenseman may take a few years to be a top d-man if he does work out. What we have needed for years is offense. This trade does exactly that gives us offense up front. I would of loved to kept Rads but Druion is a lot younger. The fact he's French is nice for some fans but either way he addresses a need everyone has been talking about with a trade for someone who wasn't even in the line up. We have a solid defensive corp of D-man , along with Price who with his puck handling skills actually helps against for checkers. Pitts won the cup with a no name defense, yes the Preds had a mobile offensive d-corp , but everyone forgets they almost missed the playoffs to start with. With that same defense.

Agree. For the first time in quite a while we will have a fairly young and competitive forward group secured with some potential surprises. Our depth at forward with Drouin is a much better investment than giving that kind of money or term to Radulov. As for Serrgachev, he is still an unknown quantity as far as playing at the NHL level. Bergevin has really gutted our defence and for those who were saying have a sell off, do the rebuild and trade our core I would say we may look back on this year as the year the rebuild was completed. If we look at the start of last year only Petry, Parisi, Weber, Lernout and Redmond remain on the back end. We let 11 players go as UFA's and lost 1 to waivers but signed 10 others with half of them being on the back end. No doubt Julien has had some input in this (Joe Morrow for one).Our forward depth may make for a few surprises this year and should easily be better than last years group. With some of Lernout, Juulsen, Jerabek, Mete, and Brooks or Bourque getting closer. I can see Streit spending some time in the minors to facilitate their development if his play deteriorates during the course of the season. Bergevin also has  the money and assets to trade for and sign a top four defenceman if he feels the need. 

[Regis22]

40 minutes ago, Habberwacky said:

. Bergevin also has  the money and assets to trade for and sign a top four defenceman if he feels the need. 

What assets does he have, besides money ,  to trade for a top 4 D man ? Every team in the league wants one , they are not going to give it away , like MB did with PK .

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/2020-vision-what-the-montreal-canadiens-roster-will-look-like-in-three-years

 

Beyond that, things are a bit of a mixed bag for the Canadiens. They have a defense corps that will be ancient by NHL standards in three years, which raises questions about whether they’ll be able to keep up in a league that is already fast and trending toward more speed.

[Regis22]

44 minutes ago, Habberwacky said:

Agree. For the first time in quite a while we will have a fairly young and competitive forward group secured with some potential surprises.

The forwards are basically the same as last year

Take out Radulov insert Drouin, and an aging  Hemsky

Still no # 1 or # 2 C again

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/2020-vision-what-the-montreal-canadiens-roster-will-look-like-in-three-years

It’s a question that has dogged the Montreal Canadiens for years and will continue to do so until they address it, either from within or outside the organization. What are they going to do with that enormous, gaping hole down the middle of their lineup? And if they fancy themselves as a serious Stanley Cup contender in 2019-20, they have a couple of years to come up with an answer.

Whether or not it is a player who is listed as a center, left winger and right winger – one Alex Galchenyuk – is as much an unknown as it was when he broke into the NHL five years ago. Even though the Canadiens signed him to a three-year deal worth $4.9 million a season, the organization is no closer to knowing what it has in him. He hasn’t had a sustained opportunity, but hasn’t been terribly impressive, particularly in his own end, when he has had a chance

 

[Regis22]

3 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

The chip and chase was referring to entering the other teams zone getting behind the other teams d with speed,  as I stated passing the puck moves the puck faster than skating the puck up ice as in "head manning the puck".

I agree but I think the current D aren't the greatest at passing the puck . Last year Markov was IMO the best and this yr I don't see much in the way of head manning the puck coming from the D . I think they'll get hemmed in their own zone . Teams know that they are slow so they 'll dump it in and beat them to the puck then the Habs will spend the night chasing the other team for the puck . But maybe someone on the back end will surprise us I just don't know who , the D is full of a ton of # 4 to # 8 D men

[Habberwacky]

29 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

The forwards are basically the same as last year

Take out Radulov insert Drouin, and an aging  Hemsky

Still no # 1 or # 2 C again

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/2020-vision-what-the-montreal-canadiens-roster-will-look-like-in-three-years

It’s a question that has dogged the Montreal Canadiens for years and will continue to do so until they address it, either from within or outside the organization. What are they going to do with that enormous, gaping hole down the middle of their lineup? And if they fancy themselves as a serious Stanley Cup contender in 2019-20, they have a couple of years to come up with an answer.

Whether or not it is a player who is listed as a center, left winger and right winger – one Alex Galchenyuk – is as much an unknown as it was when he broke into the NHL five years ago. Even though the Canadiens signed him to a three-year deal worth $4.9 million a season, the organization is no closer to knowing what it has in him. He hasn’t had a sustained opportunity, but hasn’t been terribly impressive, particularly in his own end, when he has had a chance

 

Interesting read. I think Patches is still here in 3 years and scoring though and hope Reway (has been one of my favourite players to watch for a while now) is more than a 4th line winger, but am not sure about Gallagher being on that list. The only player who I am relatively sure will not be there from our present team is Mitchell (no Dannault? Insert there at least). I don't see Evans in their projections and think we will know shortly how he is doing as he finishes his career with Notre Dame this spring. If Galchenyuk and Drouin can live up to expectations we have some very good depth. Ikonen will also be fun to watch. I think Julien had a  small flashy centre somewhere else too and hope Ikonen can be near that little ball of hate. The backend appears a little trickier to resolve and it would be nice to see the projections Habs' staff are looking at in making these moves. I do not believe Bergevin is making these decisions in the dark or on his own. I have heard some good things about the progress of Lernout and with the team moving to Laval fans will get the opportunity to do their own evaluations. Weber will not be a top pairing defenceman in 2020 (not sure he will be playing), but with Brooks, Juulson and Mete on the farm we aren't too bad. I would suggest that Jerabek may have a better chance than Schlemko of being a top 4 rearguard in 2020 too. Not sure the whole strength down the middle problem is as large as some would like it to be. Thanks for the article. It offers an interesting perspective.

[habs1952]

5 hours ago, Regis22 said:

I think this D stinks then again I don't know much of what these new guys can do . There aren't any young guys back there .  When they go to 3 on 3 in OT the Habs aren't going to have any D men who can skate with all that open ice

As for chipping and chasing , The Habs have been doing it for years under MT all it did was get them hemmed in their own zone

Just wait until a couple of D-men go down with injuries and we look to the farm for replacements. 

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, Regis22 said:

I agree but I think the current D aren't the greatest at passing the puck . Last year Markov was IMO the best and this yr I don't see much in the way of head manning the puck coming from the D . I think they'll get hemmed in their own zone . Teams know that they are slow so they 'll dump it in and beat them to the puck then the Habs will spend the night chasing the other team for the puck . But maybe someone on the back end will surprise us I just don't know who , the D is full of a ton of # 4 to # 8 D men

I hear price is gonna play goal with a regular hockey stick this year.

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, Habberwacky said:

Interesting read. I think Patches is still here in 3 years and scoring though and hope Reway (has been one of my favourite players to watch for a while now) is more than a 4th line winger, but am not sure about Gallagher being on that list. The only player who I am relatively sure will not be there from our present team is Mitchell (no Dannault? Insert there at least). I don't see Evans in their projections and think we will know shortly how he is doing as he finishes his career with Notre Dame this spring. If Galchenyuk and Drouin can live up to expectations we have some very good depth. Ikonen will also be fun to watch. I think Julien had a  small flashy centre somewhere else too and hope Ikonen can be near that little ball of hate. The backend appears a little trickier to resolve and it would be nice to see the projections Habs' staff are looking at in making these moves. I do not believe Bergevin is making these decisions in the dark or on his own. I have heard some good things about the progress of Lernout and with the team moving to Laval fans will get the opportunity to do their own evaluations. Weber will not be a top pairing defenceman in 2020 (not sure he will be playing), but with Brooks, Juulson and Mete on the farm we aren't too bad. I would suggest that Jerabek may have a better chance than Schlemko of being a top 4 rearguard in 2020 too. Not sure the whole strength down the middle problem is as large as some would like it to be. Thanks for the article. It offers an interesting perspective.

He's using a ouija board given to him by Geoff Molson.

[Habs=stanleycup]

9 hours ago, habs1952 said:

He's using a ouija board given to him by Geoff Molson.

[Habs=stanleycup]

Interesting read from the hockey writers:

Habs GM Bergevin in Embarrassing Cap Situation

http://thehockeywriters.com/montreal-canadiens-gm-bergevin-in-embarrassing-cap-situation/

[maas_art]

On 8/7/2017 at 10:24 AM, CaptWelly said:

I actually don't get this comment? French or not Druion is an offensive player that is young with a huge upside. Trading away a top defensive prospect I don't like. That said he is still a prospect and could be Subban 2.0 or Beau 2.0 still unknown and like most defenseman may take a few years to be a top d-man if he does work out. What we have needed for years is offense. This trade does exactly that gives us offense up front. I would of loved to kept Rads but Druion is a lot younger. The fact he's French is nice for some fans but either way he addresses a need everyone has been talking about with a trade for someone who wasn't even in the line up. We have a solid defensive corp of D-man , along with Price who with his puck handling skills actually helps against for checkers. Pitts won the cup with a no name defense, yes the Preds had a mobile offensive d-corp , but everyone forgets they almost missed the playoffs to start with. With that same defense.

Agreed.  Adding Drouin to the roster is a no brainer and while it hurts to lose Sergachev, the bigger problem is that we have basically NO quality defensmen in the pipeline right now.   There's way more risk on TB with this deal and I have zero problem with it, even though i would rather have not dealt away MS.

[ramcharger440]

7 hours ago, maas_art said:

Agreed.  Adding Drouin to the roster is a no brainer and while it hurts to lose Sergachev, the bigger problem is that we have basically NO quality defensmen in the pipeline right now.   There's way more risk on TB with this deal and I have zero problem with it, even though i would rather have not dealt away MS.

100%. either get a #1 center or play Chucky or Druoin there and we should be ok offensively. now if we had a younger version of Marky too that would be great but we will get by ok. i find it interesting that no one seems to feel Petry is our puck moving offensive dman? sure we could use one on the left too but it is Petry's time to shine in my view anyways.

 

[CaptWelly]

49 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

100%. either get a #1 center or play Chucky or Druoin there and we should be ok offensively. now if we had a younger version of Marky too that would be great but we will get by ok. i find it interesting that no one seems to feel Petry is our puck moving offensive dman? sure we could use one on the left too but it is Petry's time to shine in my view anyways.

 

I really like Petry myself just the talk has been about a left d puck moving d-man. Which hopefully we can work out moving forward. We need a 1 or even 1-2 center. That said I believe the deal really has to be great. I like having both Chucky and Druoin and would love to be able to keep both. I wouldn't have an issue with starting the season with Chuck & Druoin both playing center. Danualt Pleks next and maybe we developed a great 1-2 punch or at least 1 of them looks great there and we go with one or the other. I want to see them together on 3 on 3 and on the power play!

[Regis22]

1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

 i find it interesting that no one seems to feel Petry is our puck moving offensive dman? sure we could use one on the left too but it is Petry's time to shine in my view anyways.

Don't shoot the messenger

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/canadiens-thinking-now-trending-topics-134159102.html

When the Canadiens traded P.K. Subban — still funny and relevant, by the way — they did so with the acknowledgement that Weber was more of a stay-at-home guy. He’s not going to lug the puck for you. Neither was Markov, to be fair. Not at his age. Then there’s the addition of Alzner, not known as a puck-mover either. So then who’s in charge of moving the puck through the two non-attacking zones? Jeff Petry? Sure, him. Did it last season, didn’t he?

[maas_art]

13 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

100%. either get a #1 center or play Chucky or Druoin there and we should be ok offensively. now if we had a younger version of Marky too that would be great but we will get by ok. i find it interesting that no one seems to feel Petry is our puck moving offensive dman? sure we could use one on the left too but it is Petry's time to shine in my view anyways.

The problem is that both Petry and Weber are RHD.   If we're once again keeping Weber and Petry on separate pairings, you have a great puck mover in Petry and you can probably slot a guy like Alzner in beside him, but who is moving the puck for the 37-40 minutes a game Petry is not on the ice?   Its pretty dire. I still have no idea who is slotting in next to Weber because no one on the roster seems well-suited. The bigger problem is that Weber's game is built on position and separating players from the puck.  If he's allowed to do that he's still an effective #1 dman, but in order to do that, he needs a mobile puck mover who can scoop up the puck and get it out of harms way.  We have no one who jumps out as being able to do that.

I still think MB is going to have to pull a rabbit out of his hate, and unfortunately i think that may mean moving Galchenyuk to do so

[Regis22]

4 hours ago, maas_art said:

I still think MB is going to have to pull a rabbit out of his hate, and unfortunately i think that may mean moving Galchenyuk to do so

Which explains why he was not given a no trade / no movement etc clause  when he signed

[maas_art]

26 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Which explains why he was not given a no trade / no movement etc clause  when he signed

Definitely.  At his age, with a short contract, there would have been little risk to giving him at least a modified NTC.  

[MALMACIAN_CRUNCH]

On 8/6/2017 at 9:29 PM, habs1952 said:

Besides Subban who was traded, I can't think of any D-man playing for the Habs who was developed by the Habs. We've basically traded everything away.

There can be no arguing with that, all have been either traded or just not resigned (or in Emelin's case, left unprotected).

That said, besides Suban and Markov and maybe Beaulieu, are there any that we actually miss? I think that some level of purging has to be expected any time there is a turnover at the upper levels of management. That doesn't mean that I am happy, or agree with every move (or non-move) that has been made, just that it's not that surprising, nor alarming, to see a GM turnover an entire defense over the course of 5 years. Are we better or worse off for it? Who knows? But I guess we'll find out soon enough...

On a positive note, we do have a descent handful of prospects in that department that should be knocking at the door before we know it.

[maas_art]

4 minutes ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

On a positive note, we do have a descent handful of prospects in that department that should be knocking at the door before we know it.

There's some good #3-6 guys but I am not convinced any of the dmen in our system are legit threats to be top pairing guys.   At least with Sergachev we had a pretty good chance at one.  Now our cupboards are bare for the first pairing.  I sure hope the rumours of us trying to acquire Sanheim are true.