Marc Bergevin and staff 2017-18

[eldag]

When Bergevin made dumb trade # 365 sending Sergychev to Tampa for Drouin not long after reiterating his lie to the fans that he would not trade the young defenseman, I (along with a lot of reasonably knowledgeable Hab fans) had serious concerns about what MB was doing to the defense corps by sending away the organization's only blue chip prospect who happened to be a defenseman for a forward with lots of raw talent but some unsettling character issues.

Well .... so far .... it ain't looking all that peachy. While certainly a small sample size and dealing with two teams at opposite ends of the talent spectrum makes things problematic when doing comparisons, Sergychev has 3 goals and 5 assists and a plus 3 rating while averaging just over 12 minutes a night. Drouin is averaging over 18 minutes and has produced 5 points as a minus 5 player. I have not seen much of Drouin play admittedly because I have not been watching much Habs hockey for obvious reasons (number one being life is too short) however I have been told by people who have seen much more of him so far this year that he definitely has a high talent ceiling but he seems to disappear for certain lengths of time during games and he is not great defensively. Perhaps our more astute observers here have opinions on that.  Does putting him at centre restrict his creativity?

The only team preventing the Habs from claiming their rightful place as dead last in the NHL are the pesky Arizona Desert Puppies who will be formidable foes in the battle for the number 1 lottery draft selection in 2018. I remain optimistic however that we have the roster and the General Manager capable of securing the top number of lottery balls for next year's amateur draft lottery selection process ,,,,,,,     

[BigTed3]

18 minutes ago, eldag said:

When Bergevin made dumb trade # 365 sending Sergychev to Tampa for Drouin not long after reiterating his lie to the fans that he would not trade the young defenseman, I (along with a lot of reasonably knowledgeable Hab fans) had serious concerns about what MB was doing to the defense corps by sending away the organization's only blue chip prospect who happened to be a defenseman for a forward with lots of raw talent but some unsettling character issues.

Well .... so far .... it ain't looking all that peachy. While certainly a small sample size and dealing with two teams at opposite ends of the talent spectrum makes things problematic when doing comparisons, Sergychev has 3 goals and 5 assists and a plus 3 rating while averaging just over 12 minutes a night. Drouin is averaging over 18 minutes and has produced 5 points as a minus 5 player. I have not seen much of Drouin play admittedly because I have not been watching much Habs hockey for obvious reasons (number one being life is too short) however I have been told by people who have seen much more of him so far this year that he definitely has a high talent ceiling but he seems to disappear for certain lengths of time during games and he is not great defensively. Perhaps our more astute observers here have opinions on that.  Does putting him at centre restrict his creativity?

The only team preventing the Habs from claiming their rightful place as dead last in the NHL are the pesky Arizona Desert Puppies who will be formidable foes in the battle for the number 1 lottery draft selection in 2018. I remain optimistic however that we have the roster and the General Manager capable of securing the top number of lottery balls for next year's amateur draft lottery selection process ,,,,,,,     

I think a lot of Bergevin's trades and signings have been bad, especially int he last 18 months, but the Drouin-Sergachev deal is not one of them. It's a deal we might lose badly, it's a deal we might win, but it was a fair trade IMO. We dealt a very good asset for an equally good asset, one who is a tad older but who was also more proven at the NHL level. In Drouin's case, this is not a Shea Weber or Scott Gomez, where you've dealt a stud in or entering his prime (like Subban or McDo) for a guy who is good but already past his prime. We are getting Drouin when he will likely still be a top performer for another 6-8 years. I see this as a trade where you give up something good to get something good, and not a trade that we won or lost just yet. It was a hockey trade where we swapped one asset for another, and I have no problem with that.

The bigger problem is what Bergevin has or has not done with the defence. We had a huge hole at center, and it certainly seems like MB planned to fill that hole with Drouin. I like the way JD has played thus far. He is terrific at zone entries, his puck control on the PP is very good, and he's even made some nice defensive plays. But there will be a growing curve for a younger player who hasn't played center in the NHL before. The frustrating thing for me is that AG did just as well at center (better offensively than JD but not quite as good defensively and equally miserably in the FO circle) and wasn't given the chance to grow there.  So I personally have no issue with JD at center, but I do take issue with not having given AG the same chance. Nevertheless, that brings us back to the problem of MB trading for JD as a center to fill that hole when he had an equally good option in AG in house. And having made that trade, he now has a huge hole at left D.

Luckily for MB, Victor Mete surprised everyone by filling some of that void. Without Mete, the left side of the D would be Alzner, Morrow, and Davidson, and not one of those players has looked better than being a #6 guy thus far, not to mention cast-off Mark Streit. So, the Drouin-Sergachev trade in a vacuum is fine as a hockey deal. But it's a bit bizarre if you examine it in the bigger context of things for the Habs, because MB seemingly had no plan to fill the void on his D. He had already weakened the right side by trading Subban for Weber. And then he goes out and deals Sergachev and at the same time, sends Beaulieu packing and plays hardball with Markov. So he goes from 3 puck-moving D men on the left to none. Forget the loss of Emelin, I'm not crying over that. But look at those other 3 guys you lost and now look at the 3 guys you had to replace them (not counting Mete's emergence, which wasn't a guarantee when MB made those moves anyways). It's not the case where you deal Sergachev because you have other players lined up in the wings to fill that void. MB has nothing. He didn't have a back-up plan, he didn't really have anyone who played last year at the AHL level ready to step in. And then he goes out and dumps the two puck-moving D men he has left on the left side. If you know you've dealt Sergachev and you aren't sure you're going to be able to re-sign Markov, then why in Sam's name would you trade Beaulieu away and protect Benn? If you've lost Sergachev and Beaulieu and you have tons of cap space left over, why don't you pay Markov for the one-year deal everyone admits he was willing to take? In isolation, I have no particular issue with moving on from Markov or dealing Beaulieu or using Sergachev as a trade chip to get a young NHL star like Drouin. But put it all together and look at the lack of an alternate solution, and it really looks like Marc Bergevin had no plan and lacked all foresight for building his D. And for him then to come out and say we have a better defence than last year and more puck moving ability... yet more of Bergevin's lies to us. So no, the Sergachev trade isn't a losing bet. It's a gamble, but I take no issue with that.  What I do take issue with is Bergevin's lack of a plan to offset multiple losses on the left side of the D.

 

 

[eldag]

19 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I think a lot of Bergevin's trades and signings have been bad, especially int he last 18 months, but the Drouin-Sergachev deal is not one of them. It's a deal we might lose badly, it's a deal we might win, but it was a fair trade IMO. We dealt a very good asset for an equally good asset, one who is a tad older but who was also more proven at the NHL level. In Drouin's case, this is not a Shea Weber or Scott Gomez, where you've dealt a stud in or entering his prime (like Subban or McDo) for a guy who is good but already past his prime. We are getting Drouin when he will likely still be a top performer for another 6-8 years. I see this as a trade where you give up something good to get something good, and not a trade that we won or lost just yet. It was a hockey trade where we swapped one asset for another, and I have no problem with that.

The bigger problem is what Bergevin has or has not done with the defence. We had a huge hole at center, and it certainly seems like MB planned to fill that hole with Drouin. I like the way JD has played thus far. He is terrific at zone entries, his puck control on the PP is very good, and he's even made some nice defensive plays. But there will be a growing curve for a younger player who hasn't played center in the NHL before. The frustrating thing for me is that AG did just as well at center (better offensively than JD but not quite as good defensively and equally miserably in the FO circle) and wasn't given the chance to grow there.  So I personally have no issue with JD at center, but I do take issue with not having given AG the same chance. Nevertheless, that brings us back to the problem of MB trading for JD as a center to fill that hole when he had an equally good option in AG in house. And having made that trade, he now has a huge hole at left D.

Luckily for MB, Victor Mete surprised everyone by filling some of that void. Without Mete, the left side of the D would be Alzner, Morrow, and Davidson, and not one of those players has looked better than being a #6 guy thus far, not to mention cast-off Mark Streit. So, the Drouin-Sergachev trade in a vacuum is fine as a hockey deal. But it's a bit bizarre if you examine it in the bigger context of things for the Habs, because MB seemingly had no plan to fill the void on his D. He had already weakened the right side by trading Subban for Weber. And then he goes out and deals Sergachev and at the same time, sends Beaulieu packing and plays hardball with Markov. So he goes from 3 puck-moving D men on the left to none. Forget the loss of Emelin, I'm not crying over that. But look at those other 3 guys you lost and now look at the 3 guys you had to replace them (not counting Mete's emergence, which wasn't a guarantee when MB made those moves anyways). It's not the case where you deal Sergachev because you have other players lined up in the wings to fill that void. MB has nothing. He didn't have a back-up plan, he didn't really have anyone who played last year at the AHL level ready to step in. And then he goes out and dumps the two puck-moving D men he has left on the left side. If you know you've dealt Sergachev and you aren't sure you're going to be able to re-sign Markov, then why in Sam's name would you trade Beaulieu away and protect Benn? If you've lost Sergachev and Beaulieu and you have tons of cap space left over, why don't you pay Markov for the one-year deal everyone admits he was willing to take? In isolation, I have no particular issue with moving on from Markov or dealing Beaulieu or using Sergachev as a trade chip to get a young NHL star like Drouin. But put it all together and look at the lack of an alternate solution, and it really looks like Marc Bergevin had no plan and lacked all foresight for building his D. And for him then to come out and say we have a better defence than last year and more puck moving ability... yet more of Bergevin's lies to us. So no, the Sergachev trade isn't a losing bet. It's a gamble, but I take no issue with that.  What I do take issue with is Bergevin's lack of a plan to offset multiple losses on the left side of the D.

 

 

I think ultimately you and I are saying the same thing in different ways. Please refer to the highlighted text above.  If Sergychev was a winger instead of a defenseman then I probably would not object to the trade quite as much. You seem to have a higher opinion of Drouin than I hold but fair enough ... you have probably watched him play more this year. Where I think we absolutely agree is about the  egregious way in which the defense corps has been mangled by Bergevin's lack of planning and proper player assessment and it is in this light that I say the trade was a bad move in the bigger context .... don't you agree?

[BigTed3]

51 minutes ago, eldag said:

I think ultimately you and I are saying the same thing in different ways. Please refer to the highlighted text above.  If Sergychev was a winger instead of a defenseman then I probably would not object to the trade quite as much. You seem to have a higher opinion of Drouin than I hold but fair enough ... you have probably watched him play more this year. Where I think we absolutely agree is about the  egregious way in which the defense corps has been mangled by Bergevin's lack of planning and proper player assessment and it is in this light that I say the trade was a bad move in the bigger context .... don't you agree?

On a larger scale, absolutely... Bergevin has completely replaced his defence corps in a matter of 2-3 years and for the worse. Weber and Petry are on the decline, albeit still good defencemen, but they need to be complemented by faster, puck-moving D men on the left too. We had a lot of defencemen in camp this year competing for jobs, but almost all of the others were fringe NHLers to begin with.

[ramcharger440]

What i find scary is even if he had not made the deal for Webber PK could not have saved this Dcorps either. lets face it the best Dman we have is 19 with 8 games in the NHL.

[kalevine]

MB must have been drooling at the prospect of getting Alzner.  Exactly his type of D man ie-defensively "responsible" (meaning he doesn't get caught up ice), low offensive ceiling.   Price is no object when all the stars align like that for MB

 

[HabsRuleForever]

No Marc the answer is not in that room. The answer is in Nashville, Washington, Dallas & Russia, Colorado even. Heck, even Barberio scored last night.

[jennifer_rocket]

47 minutes ago, HabsRuleForever said:

No Marc the answer is not in that room. The answer is in Nashville, Washington, Dallas & Russia, Colorado even. Heck, even Barberio scored last night.

if his job is too hard for him, he should stop doing it. It feels like he's just making excuses for himself. It's "In that room..." Yeah, because the team you built is so good it's not your problem at all.

[eldag]

1 hour ago, HabsRuleForever said:

No Marc the answer is not in that room. The answer is in Nashville, Washington, Dallas & Russia, Colorado even. Heck, even Barberio scored last night.

Unfortunately ... that press conference revealed little beyond what most of us already know ... at the risk of winning today's Captain Obvious award this guy has no answers and has destroyed whatever this team had going over the last 5 years. His silly comment about "the answer is in that room" when he has relegated the team to a small market spending budget and failed to bring in any talent that would have brought us closer to contending is infuriating to a fan of the team. He accepts no responsibility for this mess and it is obvious Molson is not going to do anything about it .....

It is beyond me why people are continuing to pay outrageous prices to see this team play.

[Habs=stanleycup]

2 hours ago, eldag said:

Unfortunately ... that press conference revealed little beyond what most of us already know ... at the risk of winning today's Captain Obvious award this guy has no answers and has destroyed whatever this team had going over the last 5 years. His silly comment about "the answer is in that room" when he has relegated the team to a small market spending budget and failed to bring in any talent that would have brought us closer to contending is infuriating to a fan of the team. He accepts no responsibility for this mess and it is obvious Molson is not going to do anything about it .....

It is beyond me why people are continuing to pay outrageous prices to see this team play.

[habby67]

Who wrote MB's answers? Trump?r

[jwlk]

6 hours ago, HabsRuleForever said:

No Marc the answer is not in that room. The answer is in Nashville, Washington, Dallas & Russia, Colorado even. Heck, even Barberio scored last night.

i believe he truly believes this team is great, he compares them to other great teams, hes either really smart and we just can't see it, or he really doesn't know anything about hockey

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, jwlk said:

i believe he truly believes this team is great, he compares them to other great teams,   he really doesn't know anything about hockey

Fixed it for ya!

[HabsRuleForever]

12 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Fixed it for ya!

His next press conference.

“Its kinot’s fault”

[kinot-2]

46 minutes ago, HabsRuleForever said:

His next press conference.

“Its kinot’s fault”

Hey,,, why not? I get blamed for everything else that goes on with this team. 

[maas_art]

On 10/23/2017 at 8:14 AM, BigTed3 said:

We had a huge hole at center, and it certainly seems like MB planned to fill that hole with Drouin. I like the way JD has played thus far. He is terrific at zone entries, his puck control on the PP is very good, and he's even made some nice defensive plays. But there will be a growing curve for a younger player who hasn't played center in the NHL before. The frustrating thing for me is that AG did just as well at center (better offensively than JD but not quite as good defensively and equally miserably in the FO circle) and wasn't given the chance to grow there.  So I personally have no issue with JD at center, but I do take issue with not having given AG the same chance. Nevertheless, that brings us back to the problem of MB trading for JD as a center to fill that hole when he had an equally good option in AG in house. And having made that trade, he now has a huge hole at left D.

This.

This is the problem with so many of Bergevin's 'big trades."  He's the guy who trades his baseball glove for a ball.  

Could we have used Weber on our D? Absolutely.  At the expense of Subban? NO WAY.  Could we have used Drouin? You bet.  At the expense of Sergachev: the only blue chip prospect we had at that position?  Not ideal.  

Like you, i have less of a problem with this trade than most but we're a team with depth at LW, RW and RD.  We had huge holes at centre and left D. So what do we do? Rather than trading a winger for a centre or a winger for a LD we trade our only good LD prospect for a C (Who isnt even a proven centre).   And to compound it, as you mentioned, AG may still be the better option there!!   If we were trading so we had  Drouin - Galchenyuk - Danault - Mac/Mitchell/DLR as our 4 centres, thats one thing but we traded our best young defensman for a player with almost exactly the same skillset as AG and then we relinquished AG to the fourth line.

Its almost comical how the roster has been handled...except i have a hard time laughing    

[RuudNuij]

Lack of Confidence?, .. yes, .. probably maybe.

Lack of consistency?, .. yes.

our fine talented team has shown this not just now, but in all recent years.

the point was to get people over here to get the job done, we got some, and let them go.

funny thing (and this being om MB side), is that at times, this team is capable of anything ..

so I guess still but to sit and see what happens next. L.A. recent years have shown that if we are not well playing in the west, we don`t really get that far ..

(a prediction of my own), .. I sometimes milestone this as to how the habs are really doing, .. Personally, I would not like if Price or Patches couldn't`t win a cup in Montreal,

but without consistency, I don`t see this happening, unless a stake of luck, at exceptional timing.

i liked the line changes against Florida, and hope that all is still temporary, as I know we can do at least better than this.

but tonight will show again, .. L.A. any predictions ??

 

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, RuudNuij said:

Lack of Confidence?, .. yes, .. probably maybe.

Lack of consistency?, .. yes.

our fine talented team has shown this not just now, but in all recent years.

the point was to get people over here to get the job done, we got some, and let them go.

funny thing (and this being om MB side), is that at times, this team is capable of anything ..

so I guess still but to sit and see what happens next. L.A. recent years have shown that if we are not well playing in the west, we don`t really get that far ..

(a prediction of my own), .. I sometimes milestone this as to how the habs are really doing, .. Personally, I would not like if Price or Patches couldn't`t win a cup in Montreal,

but without consistency, I don`t see this happening, unless a stake of luck, at exceptional timing.

i liked the line changes against Florida, and hope that all is still temporary, as I know we can do at least better than this.

but tonight will show again, .. L.A. any predictions ??

 

LA by a field goal. 

[vegasrick]

3 hours ago, HabsRuleForever said:

His next press conference.

“Its kinot’s fault”

Well, at least he would be party correct about that one.

 

2 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

Hey,,, why not? I get blamed for everything else that goes on with this team. 

I noticed that.  Oh, well, what are ya gonna do?  I blame kinot. 

[BigTed3]

2 hours ago, maas_art said:

This.

This is the problem with so many of Bergevin's 'big trades."  He's the guy who trades his baseball glove for a ball.  

Could we have used Weber on our D? Absolutely.  At the expense of Subban? NO WAY.  Could we have used Drouin? You bet.  At the expense of Sergachev: the only blue chip prospect we had at that position?  Not ideal.  

Like you, i have less of a problem with this trade than most but we're a team with depth at LW, RW and RD.  We had huge holes at centre and left D. So what do we do? Rather than trading a winger for a centre or a winger for a LD we trade our only good LD prospect for a C (Who isnt even a proven centre).   And to compound it, as you mentioned, AG may still be the better option there!!   If we were trading so we had  Drouin - Galchenyuk - Danault - Mac/Mitchell/DLR as our 4 centres, thats one thing but we traded our best young defensman for a player with almost exactly the same skillset as AG and then we relinquished AG to the fourth line.

Its almost comical how the roster has been handled...except i have a hard time laughing    

Even with Drouin, right now out center line is JD-Danault-Plekanec-Mitchell/DLR/McCarron. That's pretty weak. Our top center is batting 43% in the face-off circle and needs time to learn the position. Our next two guys are 3rd liners. So yes, that needed an upgrade and still does. Is our current line any better than if AG was the 1C instead of Drouin? Not to me.

Now look at the wings. LW features Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Hudon, and Byron. That's pretty darn good. On RW, we have Lehkonen, Gallagher, Shaw, and then take your pick of Scherbak, Mitchell, McCarron, Carr, etc. Not as good as the left side but still passable. So yes, if we were going to deal anyone to find a 1C, it seems like it would have made more sense to deal away a winger rather than a LD. Or, and I'll come back to this, if you're making plans to deal Sergachev, you don't go throwing away Beaulieu and/or Markov. There was definitely a case to be made last year that Benn out-played Beaulieu down the stretch. But Benn's also older and more comfortable on the right side. And he's not a puck mover, whereas Beaulieu is. So if your deficit is puck-moving left-sided D men, it didn't make a lot of sense to protect Benn over Beaulieu. Again, just hard to fathom how you put all of Bergevin's moves together, because the sum of his maneuvering just doesn't gel the way it should.

 

 

[jwlk]

23 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Fixed it for ya!

lol

[BigTed3]

You know the GM is doing a questionable job when he's got more posts in his thread than all but one player.

[HabsRuleForever]

And it’s because of management that the one player has more posts.

[BigTed3]

To recap all of Marc Bergevin's press conferences over the past few years:

- Carey will be back soon.

- Carey will be back eventually.

- Carey will be out indefinitely but back this year.

- It just didn't happen for Carey.

- I am not trading PK Subban

- I have traded PK Subban

- Michael Therrien is a foxhole guy

- If you want to blame someone, blame Marc Bergevin, not Michel.

- I have fired Michel Therrien.

- Trades are hard.

- We have a better defence than last year.

- Signing free agents is hard.

- I meant team defence is better, not out defence corps. I was misinterpreted.

- The answer is in that room.

- I will not make a panic trade.

 

So... who thinks a panic trade is coming?

[HabsRuleForever]

Right away. #blamekinot