2017-18 The Rumors Thread

[HabsRuleForever]

19 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

We developed Sergachev, Subban ,  McDonagh ,

A develop & release program.

[BigTed3]

9 hours ago, Regis22 said:

We developed Sergachev, Subban ,  McDonagh ,

Actually we didn't. McDonagh was traded while he was still in the US collegiate system and never played for our organization. Sergachev went right from junior to the NHL and back and forth before going to TB. Neither guy played in the AHL and suffered from our poor development system. Ditto for Lehkonen, Emelin, Galchenyuk, etc. Our best prospects managed to bypass the AHL completely. Subban played there one year, but he might be more of an exception to anything, because he was clearly already NHL-ready as a youngster.

[HabsAlways]

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Actually we didn't. McDonagh was traded while he was still in the US collegiate system and never played for our organization. Sergachev went right from junior to the NHL and back and forth before going to TB. Neither guy played in the AHL and suffered from our poor development system. Ditto for Lehkonen, Emelin, Galchenyuk, etc. Our best prospects managed to bypass the AHL completely. Subban played there one year, but he might be more of an exception to anything, because he was clearly already NHL-ready as a youngster.

Subban's one year in the AHL was with the Hamilton Bulldogs in 2009-2010 under Guy Boucher ... in short, he played in our  farm system before it was destroyed by Lefebvre

[maas_art]

11 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Subban's one year in the AHL was with the Hamilton Bulldogs in 2009-2010 under Guy Boucher ... in short, he played in our  farm system before it was destroyed by Lefebvre

Yup.   To go back to the days of Gainey/Gauthier - Boucher.    Sure, Gainey royally messed up with McDonaugh but for the most part his moves were methodical and with a set of plans.  Gauthier I think was even better.  At the time people werent happy because they made long-term moves but they set up this team as a borderline contender by the time they were sacked.   MB inherited a solid foundation and has since weakened us in almost every way (except left wing, got a lot of those!).  What a mess. 

[HabsAlways]

2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Yup.   To go back to the days of Gainey/Gauthier - Boucher.    Sure, Gainey royally messed up with McDonaugh but for the most part his moves were methodical and with a set of plans.  Gauthier I think was even better.  At the time people werent happy because they made long-term moves but they set up this team as a borderline contender by the time they were sacked.   MB inherited a solid foundation and has since weakened us in almost every way (except left wing, got a lot of those!).  What a mess. 

Gauthier was just disrespectful the fans and the players by not being open or transparent.     And you're right what success MB had at the start of his tenure was all due to Gainey/Gauthier ... and look what he's done with it?    Created a tire fire.

[maas_art]

2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Gauthier was just disrespectful the fans and the players by not being open or transparent.     And you're right what success MB had at the start of his tenure was all due to Gainey/Gauthier 

I totally get that - he was a polarizing figure and both of them made mistakes but the difference between MB and his predecessors is that they had clear visions of what they wanted out of the team and Marc just keeps "retooling a little."  You can never have too many defensemen... and then he goes and loses 4 LD in one off season.  He goes "all in" by trading Subban for the much older Weber to, presumably, win now... and then continues to give us Philip Danault as our #1c.   There's no vision, no plan....seemingly no clue. 

[habsisme]

Gauthier did well until he traded for Kaberle to try and save his job. The move made no sense. Ditto for Gomez. Those trades we just bad, no excuse for them. Weber trade is not NEARLY that bad. I don't like it either but I dont think MB has ever made a dumb trade like the 2 before him, not even close. I like MB, he just never wanted to understand 2 things... this new NHL is about youth and speed and rebuilds are necessary. Galchenyuk should have spent that shortened season in juniors and played center, and then should have played center in montreal, no matter how bad he did. Should have played Beaulieu and Tinordi instead of Murray. And we should have trade Plekanec and Markov 2-3 years ago.... but he was always trying to win NOW

[ChiLla]

24 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Gauthier did well until he traded for Kaberle to try and save his job. The move made no sense. Ditto for Gomez. Those trades we just bad, no excuse for them. Weber trade is not NEARLY that bad. I don't like it either but I dont think MB has ever made a dumb trade like the 2 before him, not even close. I like MB, he just never wanted to understand 2 things... this new NHL is about youth and speed and rebuilds are necessary. Galchenyuk should have spent that shortened season in juniors and played center, and then should have played center in montreal, no matter how bad he did. Should have played Beaulieu and Tinordi instead of Murray. And we should have trade Plekanec and Markov 2-3 years ago.... but he was always trying to win NOW

We gave up Spacek to get Kaberle in an effort to replace Markov's offensive production after his third serious knee injury if I recall correctly. The move didn't work out but it was rather inconsequential all things considered. We essentially gave up nothing and took a gamble on Kaberle, that's it.

Weber-Subban is not inconsequential, however. We traded the better player for a really good one who happens to be 32 years old and has 8 (!) years left on his contract.

[habsisme]

its crazy that you think Subban is better than Weber. Even now, I'm not sure that's the case but when if it  becomes the case it merely because of age. 

I think you forgot about the massive cap hit Kaberle was and this was before we knew we could buy him out

[ChiLla]

1 minute ago, habsisme said:

its crazy that you think Suban is better than Weber. Even now, I'm not sure that's the case but when if it  becomes the case it merely because of age. 

I think you forgot about the massive cap hit Kaberle was and this was before we knew we could buy him out

Not sure why you think it's crazy. Weber is a great player, yet he's older, slower, and generally less mobile while the entire league is increasingly about speed and quick transition – and it's only going to get worse given his age. He's got the better shot and you won't find him out of position much, simply because he doesn't really pinch. It's not his game, which is perfectly fine when you have Roman Josi, Ryan Ellis or Mathias Ekholm to take care of that. 

I don't remember Kaberle's exact numbers but wasn't his salary somewhere around 4M? Compare that to Weber's close to 8M for another 8 years or Plekanec' 6M for 30 points. Not saying it was a great move but we didn't give up anything, took a gamble and essentially lost cap space. Compliance buyout or not, Kaberle wasn't going to be here for 10 years, they would probably have bought him out anyway. What really broke Gauthier's neck IMO was trading Cammalleri mid-game. If memory serves, the optics were really bad at the time and it didn't go down well at all in the room.

[kinot-2]

Flames waived Freddie Hamilton. MB really should get on that. 

 

[habsisme]

1 hour ago, ChiLla said:

Not sure why you think it's crazy. Weber is a great player, yet he's older, slower, and generally less mobile while the entire league is increasingly about speed and quick transition – and it's only going to get worse given his age. He's got the better shot and you won't find him out of position much, simply because he doesn't really pinch. It's not his game, which is perfectly fine when you have Roman Josi, Ryan Ellis or Mathias Ekholm to take care of that. 

I don't remember Kaberle's exact numbers but wasn't his salary somewhere around 4M? Compare that to Weber's close to 8M for another 8 years or Plekanec' 6M for 30 points. Not saying it was a great move but we didn't give up anything, took a gamble and essentially lost cap space. Compliance buyout or not, Kaberle wasn't going to be here for 10 years, they would probably have bought him out anyway. What really broke Gauthier's neck IMO was trading Cammalleri mid-game. If memory serves, the optics were really bad at the time and it didn't go down well at all in the room.

If you want to talk about fit, thats another story but saying that PK is this great player who couldn't even get on team Canada and Weber is some okay D man.... im sorry... thats just not true.Josi and Elis are better players than PK... Weber was clearly the #1 d man on that team... enough said! Not even going to bother anymore. Is he older? YES and that sucks but we the better player (maybe not the better fit).

Kaberle was over 4 million and at a time when as a percentage of the cap it was significant, I believe there was 4 or 5 years remaining 

I have said this SO MANY TIMES but if you think Weber's contract is bad, you don't understand the way this works. It not a bad contract AT ALL

[HabsAlways]

1 hour ago, habsisme said:

If you want to talk about fit, thats another story but saying that PK is this great player who couldn't even get on team Canada and Weber is some okay D man..

Old school hockey establishment that viewed Weber as better than PK doesn't make it reality.    Go lookup Darren Pang's slip of the tongue and that explains a lot as to why the old school club looks down on PK.     PK 2nd on Nashville in points, 3rd in the league, likely a Norris finalist again.

[ChiLla]

2 hours ago, habsisme said:

If you want to talk about fit, thats another story but saying that PK is this great player who couldn't even get on team Canada and Weber is some okay D man.... im sorry... thats just not true.Josi and Elis are better players than PK... Weber was clearly the #1 d man on that team... enough said! Not even going to bother anymore. Is he older? YES and that sucks but we the better player (maybe not the better fit).

Kaberle was over 4 million and at a time when as a percentage of the cap it was significant, I believe there was 4 or 5 years remaining 

I have said this SO MANY TIMES but if you think Weber's contract is bad, you don't understand the way this works. It not a bad contract AT ALL

I don't think anyone called Weber 'some okay Dman' but please feel free to come up with as many straw man arguments as you like, no need to be sorry about it.

As for the second part in bold, I agree, we're definitely done here.

 

[kinot-2]

Getting back on topic. Sportsnet put together a list of teams that Max might be traded to, and what the return would be. I just picked out the essential parts.

The complete article can be read here: Don't shoot the messenger. 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/six-potential-trade-destinations-canadiens-max-pacioretty/

 

CALGARY FLAMES

As for what could go the other way, the captain of Canada’s World Junior Championship entry, Dillon Dube, was a Flames second-rounder in 2016

 

EDMONTON OILERS

A Pacioretty-for-Ryan Nugent-Hopkins deal seems less likely now than it did two months ago because RNH has been one of the few bright spots in Edmonton and Montreal might actually want younger pieces than the 24-year-old pivot. Team USA world juniors forward Kailer Yamamoto could hold appeal if the Habs are after youthful skill.

 

ANAHEIM DUCKS

The Canadiens blue line has arguably been the weakest part of the club this year, so a return package could focus on a young NHL defenceman like Brandon Montour.

 

LOS ANGELES KINGS

If the Canadiens are really ready for a re-tool, perhaps there’s a blockbuster to be done here where the Kings send the always-hurt Marian Gaborik — who’s still valuable when healthy, but, you know… — the other way. Taking on that salary through 2020-21 is doable for Montreal if it means getting its mitts on another couple prospects or picks.

Canadian WJC defenceman Kale Clague is part of the Kings system. Los Angeles also drafted big scoring forward Gabe Vilardi 11th overall last June, and though he’s been sidelined by a back injury all year, he was recently traded from the defending-Memorial Cup champion Windsor Spitfires to the Kingston Frontenacs.

 

CAROLINA HURRICANES

 With the Canes’ bevy of young blue-liners, maybe they’d be willing to talk about a package headlined by 21-year-old Haydn Fleury?

 

MINNESOTA WILD

 Matt Dumba, a 23-year-old, right-shot defenceman, might hold some appeal along with centre Luke Kunin, the 15th overall pick in 2016.

 

[BigTed3]

According to Darren Dreger, Bergevin is not convinced he has to trade Pacioretty but at present, "he's asking for a ton"... which is good. We aren't in a position where we have to trade him, so either get what you want or don't make the deal til the summer. We should be able to ask for a package of prospects and picks, akin to what Colorado got for Duchene.

[maas_art]

16 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

According to Darren Dreger, Bergevin is not convinced he has to trade Pacioretty but at present, "he's asking for a ton"... which is good. We aren't in a position where we have to trade him, so either get what you want or don't make the deal til the summer. We should be able to ask for a package of prospects and picks, akin to what Colorado got for Duchene.

Agreed. This is a good sign.  

My guess is, as you noted, we're either looking for a package of picks and prospects, or, we are looking for 1 or 2 proven commodities.  RNH + Nurse,  or a single elite young centre etc.   There arent many teams who are in a position to move those sorts of assets (and who need pacioretty now) though.   

I agree we dont "have" to move him right now but I think his value in the next couple of months is higher than at the draft.  This summer he'll be a 1 year rental.  Right now. he's very cheap rental for 2 post-seasons.  I think someone would overpay now vs. then.

If i could have my way, id love to land a young top end prospect centre (like when we were suggesting trading for Barzal last year this time) and an established young defensman + picks.   Will be interesting to see what happens. I dont think this will drag on, I think Max will be gone in the next 2 - 3 weeks tbh.

[booboo_mtl]

I'm surprised the Islanders are not mentioned as a destination for Patches. They have two 2018 1sts & two 2nds, and some decent young talent. If we added a guy like Lindgren and factor in the GM Snow, it's a deal even MB could possibly win.

[kinot-2]

16 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Agreed. This is a good sign.  

My guess is, as you noted, we're either looking for a package of picks and prospects, or, we are looking for 1 or 2 proven commodities.  RNH + Nurse,  or a single elite young centre etc.   There arent many teams who are in a position to move those sorts of assets (and who need pacioretty now) though.   

I agree we dont "have" to move him right now but I think his value in the next couple of months is higher than at the draft.  This summer he'll be a 1 year rental.  Right now. he's very cheap rental for 2 post-seasons.  I think someone would overpay now vs. then.

If i could have my way, id love to land a young top end prospect centre (like when we were suggesting trading for Barzal last year this time) and an established young defensman + picks.   Will be interesting to see what happens. I dont think this will drag on, I think Max will be gone in the next 2 - 3 weeks tbh.

Methinks MB will wait it out to the last minute at the trade deadline.

[maas_art]

21 minutes ago, booboo_mtl said:

I'm surprised the Islanders are not mentioned as a destination for Patches. They have two 2018 1sts & two 2nds, and some decent young talent. If we added a guy like Lindgren and factor in the GM Snow, it's a deal even MB could possibly win.

I definitely can see the Isles being interested.    Dont forget he's about as "hometown" as you get too - being born just an hour away.

Barzal would have been my choice if we had traded prior to the start of the season but Im pretty sure he's off the books now.   If the Isles feel like they cant get Tavares signed (and we are allowed to talk to him ahead of time) a Max for JT  deal could be something to look at hard. I dont know if the isles would ask (or could get) more since JT is closing in on UFA but its a starting point for a strong trade for both teams. 

[kinot-2]

Another expert added some fuel to the fire over the past few hours as TSN's Ray Ferraro said Pacioretty could be on his way to Edmonton with Ryan Nugent-Hopkins going the other way.

Ferraro based his argument on the fact that the Oilers would get an elite winger to play with Connor McDavid while the Canadiens would finally get a real top 6 center.

RNH has registered 29 points in 40 games this year, his best start to the season in years and could be on his way to a 30-goal season.

[maas_art]

37 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

Another expert added some fuel to the fire over the past few hours as TSN's Ray Ferraro said Pacioretty could be on his way to Edmonton with Ryan Nugent-Hopkins going the other way.

Ferraro based his argument on the fact that the Oilers would get an elite winger to play with Connor McDavid while the Canadiens would finally get a real top 6 center.

RNH has registered 29 points in 40 games this year, his best start to the season in years and could be on his way to a 30-goal season.

I think converting Patches to a younger, top line centre is an ideal return. Id personally push for another piece from edmonton but when you stack RNH's great year vs. pacioretty's bad one, it may be a tough sell. Max has been a much more consistent scorer but he's older and only signed  1 year so I would think PC would try to make it 1 for 1.

One of the more intriguing rumors ive heard Dumba + Coyle from Minnesota for Patches.   

[kinot-2]

29 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I think converting Patches to a younger, top line centre is an ideal return. Id personally push for another piece from edmonton but when you stack RNH's great year vs. pacioretty's bad one, it may be a tough sell.

One of the more intriguing rumors ive heard Dumba + Coyle from Minnesota for Patches.   

I'd do that.

 

[booboo_mtl]

15 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

I'd do that.

 

me too, that'd be a very solid return

[BigTed3]

Ferraro clarified that the said RNH for Pac would be the basis for a deal, not the entire deal. Presumably Edm would need to add to that... Pacman is a higher-tier player despite the age difference.

Dumab and Coyle would be another attractive return, although I don't know that either guy really has the potential to be a 1C/top-2 D, and Dumba is a righty. So again, this makes sense IF there are other deals in the works, like flipping Weber for a true 1C. While Coyle is a decent player, I'd rather get a guy who's a bit younger or less proven at the NHL level but with a higher ceiling (like Barzal before this season). I keep coming back to a guy like Vilimaki in Calgary as a potential #1 D. Or a guy like Dubois in Clb would be fantastic. Gabe Vilardi? Someone top-end but with less to their resume where we have a legit shot at an elite player...