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2017-18 The Rumors Thread


BigTed3
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A few journalists in Edmonton have started the Pacioretty smear campaign to try to lower his trade value. They're talking about how Pacioretty isn't worth trading RNH and isn't worth trading the #10 pick.

Maybe they don't want Pacioretty, but again, his value is higher than that of Nash, Evander Kane, etc. and he should be able to garner at least a first rounder and another solid asset. I wouldn't deal Pacioretty for just the #10 overall, which is a complete crapshoot as to whether you get a guy who ever plays in the NHL. I'd be on board with something like Pacioretty for the #10 and either Klefbom or Nurse. But they can keep their 10th pick if they want Pacioretty straight up. I'd do Pacioretty to the Canes for the #1 overall, but if it's not a top 5 pick coming back, you get more back than just a 1st rounder for a top scorer in the league. I'd rather keep Pacman in that case.

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14 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

A few journalists in Edmonton have started the Pacioretty smear campaign to try to lower his trade value. They're talking about how Pacioretty isn't worth trading RNH and isn't worth trading the #10 pick.

Maybe they don't want Pacioretty, but again, his value is higher than that of Nash, Evander Kane, etc. and he should be able to garner at least a first rounder and another solid asset. I wouldn't deal Pacioretty for just the #10 overall, which is a complete crapshoot as to whether you get a guy who ever plays in the NHL. I'd be on board with something like Pacioretty for the #10 and either Klefbom or Nurse. But they can keep their 10th pick if they want Pacioretty straight up. I'd do Pacioretty to the Canes for the #1 overall, but if it's not a top 5 pick coming back, you get more back than just a 1st rounder for a top scorer in the league. I'd rather keep Pacman in that case.

I disagree. I think a top 10 (maybe even top 15) pick for Pacioretty could be enough. Remember those other 1st round picks that were traded are somewhere in the 20s. 

I would also deal Pacioretty for Nurse or Klefbom straight up. 

I don't think think the Canes are trading the #2 pick for only Pacioretty. 

I'm also fine with keeping if we get Tavares but it seems clear that IF we got Tavares, we'd need to move a winger for D or a #2 Center. I would be super happy to turn Pacioretty into Klefbom or RNH. In fact, I'd say it was a steal. 

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Nurse is the only one I would consider as many  in Edmonton wondered what Klefbom was doing this year and many think he is one of the reasons they missed the playoffs. Having said that I would need a lot more than Nurse too as he is an unproven commodity. Give me your first pick and a Nurse and I think I make that deal.

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

I disagree. I think a top 10 (maybe even top 15) pick for Pacioretty could be enough. Remember those other 1st round picks that were traded are somewhere in the 20s. 

I would also deal Pacioretty for Nurse or Klefbom straight up. 

I don't think think the Canes are trading the #2 pick for only Pacioretty. 

I'm also fine with keeping if we get Tavares but it seems clear that IF we got Tavares, we'd need to move a winger for D or a #2 Center. I would be super happy to turn Pacioretty into Klefbom or RNH. In fact, I'd say it was a steal. 

Tatar was traded for a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. The 1st will end up being a late first, yes, but Tatar is nowhere close to the player Pacioretty is.

Kane ended up getting dealt for a 1st rounder in 2019 among other pieces, so there's no way of knowing if that will be a lottery pick or not. It could be a 1st overall or a 30th pick.

Stastny yielded a conditional 1st, but again, he's nowhere close to Pacioretty and older.

Hartman yielded a lower 1st, and again, nowhere close to Pacioretty.

Nash yielded a 1st and several other decent pieces, and again, nowhere close to Pacioretty in terms of current value.

Ottawa got a mid-round 1st and an excellent goalie prospect for Brassard. He's a center, but I think most teams would take Pacioretty over Brassard and it wouldn't be close.

Phi got two 1st rounders and Lehtera for Brayden Schenn, with the second 1st ending up being a 14th overall. Yes, Schenn is younger and a center, but again, Pacioretty likely has more value for a Cup contender than Schenn did at the time he was traded.

Travis Hamonic and a 4th yielded a 1st and two 2nds, with the 1st ending up as a lottery pick.

And we all know about the Duchene trade.

 

All that to say that much lesser players have been dealt for 1st rounders and often times with other pieces. I think we can get more than just the 10th overall for Pacioretty. if you look at a lot of rankings and mocks, the 10th overall is going to be someone like a Joe Veleno, Barrett Hayton, Noah Dobson, or Ty Smith. The 1st two guys are likely somewhere in the same category as Ryan Poehling... nice potential but likely a 2nd/3rd center and maybe they end up being a Kyle Chipchura type. Dobson has the potential to be "the next Pietrangelo" but he could again also be a complete bust. If I'm dealing Pacioretty for one asset, it's got to be a guy who's almost guaranteed to be a hit. I'd trade him for a top 5 pick... Svechnikov, Zadina, Tkachuk, Hughes, even Wahlstrom all have pretty good odds of being good-to-impact players at the NHL level. I think you can maybe make an argument for Boqvist and Kotkaniemi being worth it, but they're a little bit more of a gamble and unknowns. But that's still a top 8 pick you need to grab one of them. I'm less sold on Bouchard, Dobson, Veleno, and Hayton as being sure things, and a lot of those guys need to improve their skating and/or quickness at moving the puck, which is always a bit of a concern for guys making the jump to the NHL.

So if Carolina is serious about dealing futures (like the #2) for established scoring to win now (like Pacman), I'd do it. But the 10th just doesn't cut it for me. If we're giving up an elite scorer, I want at least one sure asset like a Nurse or Klefbom also coming back to offset some of the risk. Recent #10 picks include Owen Tippett, Tyson Jost, Mikko Rantanen, Valeri Nichushkin, Nick Ritchie, Slater Koekkoek, Dylan McIlrath, and Jonas Brodin. Jost has got a shot at being a star. The other guys aren't top line players and some of them are already clearly busts. Too much of a gamble to give up one of your best (and reasonably priced assets) for just the 10. If you wait til the deadline, almost guaranteed you can get a 1st rounder and 1-2 more assets of quality.

 

 

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

A few journalists in Edmonton have started the Pacioretty smear campaign to try to lower his trade value. They're talking about how Pacioretty isn't worth trading RNH and isn't worth trading the #10 pick.

Maybe they don't want Pacioretty, but again, his value is higher than that of Nash, Evander Kane, etc. and he should be able to garner at least a first rounder and another solid asset. I wouldn't deal Pacioretty for just the #10 overall, which is a complete crapshoot as to whether you get a guy who ever plays in the NHL. I'd be on board with something like Pacioretty for the #10 and either Klefbom or Nurse. But they can keep their 10th pick if they want Pacioretty straight up. I'd do Pacioretty to the Canes for the #1 overall, but if it's not a top 5 pick coming back, you get more back than just a 1st rounder for a top scorer in the league. I'd rather keep Pacman in that case.

If I'm paying a player 7 million a year I'm paying Evander Kane, not Pacioretty.

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If I were MB, I would "auction" Max off to the highest bidder, Let it be known that Max can be had "for the right price". But, MB must get the right return to fullfill the Habs needs. 

 

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11 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

If I were MB, I would "auction" Max off to the highest bidder, Let it be known that Max can be had "for the right price". But, MB must get the right return to fullfill the Habs needs. 

 

I get the sense that this has happened. I think every GM knows Max is available but when you look at what we want, the trade deadline was a somewhat unlikely time for it to happen (unless a team had a stockpile of young talent and felt they were one sniper away from the cup).

In the summer theoretically teams will give up more because they feel like if they move say 3 players maybe 1 or 2 of those they can replace via UFA. 

 

The bigger concern for me is what MB is asking for.  We've been over the Subban trade ad nauseam but the rumors seem to strongly suggest there were some very good offers for PK - ones I would have taken for sure - but we chose the "safe" (and not very good) option.   

I worry MB will trade Max for some 27-28 year old top 4 LD, rather than a couple of high end prospects because he believes their impact may be a year or 2 away and that wont save his job. 

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Elliotte Friedman says he believes Pacioretty will still be traded and that the question right now is the ask/return. He thinks Montreal will be willing to take younger players or futures and that Florida remains a good fit. He also says that Kane signing for 7 x 7 is good news for the Habs because teams may not want to give a guy like JVR 7 x 7 as well as a UFA and might instead opt to trade for a player like Pacioretty, who's making less and who has more value.

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1 minute ago, BigTed3 said:

Elliotte Friedman says he believes Pacioretty will still be traded and that the question right now is the ask/return. He thinks Montreal will be willing to take younger players or futures and that Florida remains a good fit. He also says that Kane signing for 7 x 7 is good news for the Habs because teams may not want to give a guy like JVR 7 x 7 as well as a UFA and might instead opt to trade for a player like Pacioretty, who's making less and who has more value.

yeah I definitely think there's a good chance Patches is gone this summer.  I think #1 he's our top trade commodity but #2 - and the team wont say this publicly - but i think they want a new captain.  If you are blaming last season on "attitude" then one has to believe they think the captain didnt do enough.  

I think that if we do end up moving him its imperative we get back a puck moving LD or a centre. I am assuming we will have to fill at least one hole (probably #2C) via UFA but I think we'll have to make a few key trades to move our surplus of LW and fix our Centre and LD woes... 

 

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Don Wadell of the Canes did an interview... a few of the salient points:

- says it's his job to listen to offers but he believes the Canes will keep the #2 overall pick, and that it would take quite an offer to get them to move it (as if he was going to come out and say they would move it for peanuts or be open to whatever the best offer is though)

- states he's happy with his top 4 D in place and that the team will almost certainly draft a forward, most likely one of Tkachuk, Svechnikov, or Zadina. Again not, unexpected.

- says he had Keith Tkachuk in Atlanta before and knows his family well; says Svechnikov brings goal-scoring, which is a big need for his team; and says Zadina is elite and that Necas knows him well and has nothing but good things to say about him. States that the Necar-Zadina relationship is a factor in their evaluation but won't say how much of a factor.

- says he has "lots of balls in the air" with respect to addressing their goalie situation and that if the team had even average goaltending last year, it would likely have been a playoff team.

 

Meanwhile, Peter Chiarelli says the team may be picking for a specific need at #10, and that his team has a different priority need than most other teams ahead of the Oilers, which may open a trade-up possibility... we know the Oilers need some help on D, but more than that need an elite winger to go with McDavid. So with respect to the Habs, that brings up the question of whether the Habs would swap #3 for #10 and other assets, with Edm then taking someone like Zadina. It would like leave us out of the Kotkaniemi sweepstakes as well and land us a player like Veleno, Bouchard, or Dobson.

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Awesome

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/canadiens-gm-talks-with-max-paciorettys-agent-about-contract-extension

TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger reported on Friday that Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin has had talks with the agent for captain Max Pacioretty about a possible contract extension.

Pacioretty has one season remaining on his six-year, US$27-million contract with a salary-cap hit of $4.5 million. After four straight 30-goal seasons, Pacioretty slumped this season with only 17 goals in 64 games.

“The trade speculation in Montreal on captain Max Pacioretty has been consistent I would say since well before the Feb. 26 trade deadline,” Dreger said on an Insider Trading segment on TSN. “But here’s something that’s interesting … they have had preliminary discussions — they being Marc Bergevin, the general manager, and (agent) Pat Brisson of CAA (Creative Artists Agency) on the possibility of an extension for Max Pacioretty. Not saying it gets done, but they’re at least considering that option.”

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37 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Awesome

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/canadiens-gm-talks-with-max-paciorettys-agent-about-contract-extension

TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger reported on Friday that Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin has had talks with the agent for captain Max Pacioretty about a possible contract extension.

Pacioretty has one season remaining on his six-year, US$27-million contract with a salary-cap hit of $4.5 million. After four straight 30-goal seasons, Pacioretty slumped this season with only 17 goals in 64 games.

“The trade speculation in Montreal on captain Max Pacioretty has been consistent I would say since well before the Feb. 26 trade deadline,” Dreger said on an Insider Trading segment on TSN. “But here’s something that’s interesting … they have had preliminary discussions — they being Marc Bergevin, the general manager, and (agent) Pat Brisson of CAA (Creative Artists Agency) on the possibility of an extension for Max Pacioretty. Not saying it gets done, but they’re at least considering that option.”

sure, bergevin is asking a fortune and no one wants to give it.  I watch max play plenty of times, I definitely wouldnt give up much.

rather than once again badly losing a trade, he will instead resign max rather than do the right thing and move on.

the really really frustrating part is i am POSITIVE that if were allowed to see whats actually been offered for max , there are at least a couple of offers we would all be totally on board with

re sign max! re sign pleks! we'll have the exact same team , surely things will go differently!

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1 hour ago, jeff33 said:

re sign max! re sign pleks! we'll have the exact same team , surely things will go differently!

They have an elite # 1 goalie in CP, an elite # 1 D man in SW an elite # 1 winger in MP all they need is that 1 C and then this team is a legitimate contender  

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I think they can find a way to make signing Pacioretty work. It's not the player that's the problem. But if you're going to pay 7-8M a season for 6 years, for example, to Pacioretty, then you absolutely need to dump at least one of Weber or Price, maybe both. I don't think they'll sign Max, this is likely just a process to boost his trade value, but if they do, they can't just sit on three older guys making tons of money. Someone's got to go. It also doesn't alleviate the log jam at LW and the lack of centers and LHD. Lots of stuff that means it makes more sense to trade Max, but it's technically feasible to re-sign him if you make 3-4 other things work instead.

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22 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

They have an elite # 1 goalie in CP, an elite # 1 D man in SW an elite # 1 winger in MP all they need is that 1 C and then this team is a legitimate contender  

mmmm yup thats that good koolaid :P

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‘Just focus on yourself. You can’t change everything yourself. Just worry about your game and your personality, how you are as a teammate and how you are as a player every day.’ 

Max on being captain through losing times, from a guy who just proceeded to mope through an entire season and make soft lazy plays all over the ice game after game. 

:6280:

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I think they can find a way to make signing Pacioretty work. It's not the player that's the problem. But if you're going to pay 7-8M a season for 6 years, for example, to Pacioretty, then you absolutely need to dump at least one of Weber or Price, maybe both. I don't think they'll sign Max, this is likely just a process to boost his trade value, but if they do, they can't just sit on three older guys making tons of money. Someone's got to go. It also doesn't alleviate the log jam at LW and the lack of centers and LHD. Lots of stuff that means it makes more sense to trade Max, but it's technically feasible to re-sign him if you make 3-4 other things work instead.

Well and there's always the JT factor.  If MB and Brisson has talked maybe JT has said he'd like to play with Pacioretty.  Its tough to know without all the info at this point. 

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5 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Has Darren Dreger reported that negotiations have begun on an extension for Max? Please no. No. Just no.

Yes, there are reports that the Habs have talked to Pacioretty's camp about an extension. I don't have a problem with it. Doesn't mean they will sign anything, but here's why it's a good thing:

1. It's MB's job to look into all his options. If Pacioretty is willing to sign for 5 years at 6.5M a season, for example, then that's a great deal for the Habs to not have to go a full 7 or 8 years. He's likely still worth that and it still leaves him as a tradeable commodity. Maybe Pacman's agent is completely unrealistic and wants 8 years at 8M per season, but you at least have to know that.

2. Knowing the contract demands helps you in trade negotiations. You can share or not share whatever information you have with a trade partner. Lets say Florida wants Pacioretty (and rumors are that it could be one of his preferred destinations because he has family there) and knows that he's looking for X amount over X number of years. Maybe Florida then says, okay, that's reasonable and we'd be willing to give you more in a trade if we can discuss that extension with him before acquiring him. Suddenly, maybe they're willing to give you Borgstrom or an extra pick they wouldn't have otherwise parted with. You can use that information to your advantage to increase the trade return. Even if you don't share that info with another team, if you yourself know he's seeking something unreasonable, you might be more willing to accept a good offer now rather than waiting for a great offer to roll along that might never come.

So I see no issue with MB gathering information, so long as he ends up using that to his advantage.

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

So I see no issue with MB gathering information, so long as he ends up using that to his advantage.

This.  

Like you, I dont have a problem with retaining Pacioretty assuming its under the right conditions.   If we keep patches one of Drouin or Galchenyuk would have to go.   Ideally Id like to keep one of them but if it means flipping one for a top pairing LD (and that patches couldnt do that himself) then Id certainly consider it.

I have been very critical of MB over the last year but so far he's done well this off season and I cant criticize him for gathering information. 

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