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2017-18 If I Were GM


BigTed3
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2 hours ago, habsisme said:

the more i look back, the more obvious it is that PK needed to be moved. The guy was just not liked in the dressing room. 

Once you accept that, there was two options, move him for someone to try to win now, or rebuild. I would have gone for a rebuild. Traded PK to Edmonton for Draisaitl, Nurse, and a pick... something like that. 

I thought this was sarcasm and was waiting for the punch line - guess not.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Which part of the team hated him? The guys who invited him to their wedding? Or the ones who joked around with him on twitter? Or the ones that hung out with him at restaurants and clubs outside the rink? Players like Weise, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Price, DSP, Markov, Gill, Bourque, Prust, and Weaver all fell into those categories. There were rumors Plekanec didn't like PK. But there are rumors some players don't like Weber or Pacioretty or others too. So take it for what it's worth. I don't know that there's any evidence any of the players felt PK needed to be traded. I don't think there's any evidence he was a cancer in the locker room, especially since both us and Nashville seemed to have done more winning with him than without him.

The only people for whom there appears to be evidence that there was hate there for PK are Michel Therrien and Marc Bergevin. Both men went out of their way to slam him in the media, to not support him for team Canada, to refuse to give him money and/or term on his contracts, to criticize him as a person as well as a player, etc. As far as I can see, the whole PK feud was not a player-player problem but an issue with two men in power who wanted a "team-first approach" and didn't like Subban. I don't even think it was the case that PK wasn't a team player - by all accounts, teammates say he was - it was more the fact that MT and MB couldn't stand him being in the public spotlight and distracting from the team concept. But that problem is on those two men and their putting their own egos ahead of winning. It's been a problem with MT/MB their entire regime here: they've gotten rid of all the players with personality and all those capable of handling the Montreal media well. The end result is a team made up of boring players playing a dull style and having no success.

Are you kidding me!? They didn't even nominate him for him the Clancy.... this is not even an argument... the team hated him.

While I'm dispelling nonsense, Galchenyuk is not a Center, maybe coulda, shoulda been one, but not gonna happen, get over it! 

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2 hours ago, habsisme said:

Its obvious because the team hated him. Changing that half of the team wouldn't have made much of a difference because the new half would have hated him too. Also, Weber IS a better defenseman, just older. PK is NOT as good as some of you claim he is. Doughty's comments about his next contract speak volumes about that. Weber was the best D man in Nashville, PK is not! Now there are other variables there but acting like PK is SO good and Weber sucks is just not true

By your logic ... Weber wasn't the best dman in Nashville either ... and he certainly wasn't.        Both Ellis and Joni were there which made Weber expendable.     Who's 2nd on team scoring in Nashville?   PK Subban.      Who's third in the league for d-man points?  PK Subban.     He's also playing great defensively and will likely be a Norris finalist again this year.     

I have to seriously question anybody's bias who states Weber is better than PK or that "PK is just not that good" or "not as good as claimed".    To me that indicates you're biased based on his personality and not his toolset.

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24 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Are you kidding me!? They didn't even nominate him for him the Clancy.... this is not even an argument... the team hated him.

While I'm dispelling nonsense, Galchenyuk is not a Center, maybe coulda, shoulda been one, but not gonna happen, get over it! 

Do you know why they didn't nominate him for the Clancy?     By all rights he should have been for his Hospital project.       

The Canadiens organization is about THEM first and the players second.    Team management resented the fact Subban did this on his own and not as part of the CH family.   This trade absolutely came down to MB and MT simply not liking him personally ... not his talent, not his skill, leadership or anything else to do with hockey on the ice.

As to Galchenyuk, granted it was a gamble whether he'd work at center or not ... but the Habs drafted him with that intention and from the outside it seems they've done nothing to set him up with success doing so.

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Marc Dumont with a good article here suggesting we should not only trade Patches but Weber too.

 

Pacioretty would probably get interest from just about every team in the league.  The tricky part is that you'd most likely have to take back slightly lower tiered players, or young players (unproven).  Most teams that would be after Pacioretty right now would be "all in" in terms of winning in the next 2 years and therefore would likely not be able to spare top centres or top defensmen.

Weber would have less suitors but should bring back a huge haul from any team that is needing a top pairing dman.   Edmonton or Toronto are two teams who would probably overpay (and have a lot to offer) for him.  Edmonton has tons of nice pieces by may not give them up for Pacioretty.  A top defenseman? That might change things.   Toronto is also severely lacking a stabilizing force like Weber on the blueline and its obvious that Babcock would love the idea of being reuinited with man-mountain.

Even an optimist like me knows is highly unlikely we win 30 of our last 41 games.   If i were GM I would move:

- Pacioretty (must get young player(s)  - either established #1C or LD  or a package of top end prospects at those 2 positions.
- Weber (must get young player(s)  - either established #1C or LD  or a package of top end prospects at those 2 positions.
- Plekanec (likely a 2nd or prospect would be the max you'd get for him)
- Alzner (this would be tough.  A team that offered him a contract this summer may still be interested?)
- Morrow (like alzner - needs to be off the roster. waive him if necessary)
- Petry  (im on the fence.  he's been great at times but he's not getting any younger. If someone paid well, id move him, although losing Weber and Petry would really hurt)

id field calls on just about anyone else.   I am not interested in trading drouin, galchenyuk, lehkonen, gallagher, mete, danault unless the offer was more than 'fair market value.'

And then there's price.   As a goalie i think he's got a lot of mileage left in the tank, his age doesnt scare me.  I think he could be easily traded (albeit to only a handful of teams that could afford him) but honestly, if you're going through a major rebuild and taking those vet. salaries off the books, prices cost will not hurt our cap and he might make us respectable as we go through the transition.

 



 



 

 

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3 minutes ago, maas_art said:


Weber would have less suitors but should bring back a huge haul from any team that is needing a top pairing dman.   Edmonton or Toronto are two teams who would probably overpay (and have a lot to offer) for him.  Edmonton has tons of nice pieces by may not give them up for Pacioretty.  A top defenseman? That might change things.   Toronto is also severely lacking a stabilizing force like Weber on the blueline and its obvious that Babcock would love the idea of being reuinited with man-mountain

 

Weber + Patches for Draistl + Prospect

 

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10 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Weber + Patches for Draistl + Prospect

 

you're selling yourself short if you trade both of them to the same team.   I am not sure if anything gets you draisatl but if Chiarelli would consider moving him I would try to offer Weber + a young forward (Scherbak or Lehkonen if they want someone more established).  Not sure if thats enough but PC has shown to be quite strange at trades and i could see him drooling over the idea of Weber on his team.

You could then flip Pacioretty to a team with defensive depth and gain a couple of pieces including a young mobile defensman like Sanheim + forward + pick from Philly for Pacioretty. Then you offer every cent you can muster to either Karlsson or Doughy as UFA. 

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2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

you're selling yourself short if you trade both of them to the same team.   I am not sure if anything gets you draisatl but if Chiarelli would consider moving him I would try to offer Weber + a young forward (Scherbak or Lehkonen if they want someone more established).  Not sure if thats enough but PC has shown to be quite strange at trades and i could see him drooling over the idea of Weber on his team.

You could then flip Pacioretty to a team with defensive depth and gain a couple of pieces including a young mobile defensman like Sanheim + forward + pick from Philly for Pacioretty. Then you offer every cent you can muster to either Karlsson or Doughy as UFA. 

Yeah, would love to pry Draistl out ... and then build around him, price and whatever else we get.

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26 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Yeah, would love to pry Draistl out ... and then build around him, price and whatever else we get.

Whats really frustrating is that IF Chiarelli would consider moving him - im not sure he would, but lets just pretend - i can almost guarantee you that Weber would be the type of player he would be looking for in return. Thats just how Chiarelli thinks.   I just cant see MB moving him. 

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42 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Marc Dumont with a good article here suggesting we should not only trade Patches but Weber too.

 

Pacioretty would probably get interest from just about every team in the league.  The tricky part is that you'd most likely have to take back slightly lower tiered players, or young players (unproven).  Most teams that would be after Pacioretty right now would be "all in" in terms of winning in the next 2 years and therefore would likely not be able to spare top centres or top defensmen.

Weber would have less suitors but should bring back a huge haul from any team that is needing a top pairing dman.   Edmonton or Toronto are two teams who would probably overpay (and have a lot to offer) for him.  Edmonton has tons of nice pieces by may not give them up for Pacioretty.  A top defenseman? That might change things.   Toronto is also severely lacking a stabilizing force like Weber on the blueline and its obvious that Babcock would love the idea of being reuinited with man-mountain.

Even an optimist like me knows is highly unlikely we win 30 of our last 41 games.   If i were GM I would move:

- Pacioretty (must get young player(s)  - either established #1C or LD  or a package of top end prospects at those 2 positions.
- Weber (must get young player(s)  - either established #1C or LD  or a package of top end prospects at those 2 positions.
- Plekanec (likely a 2nd or prospect would be the max you'd get for him)
- Alzner (this would be tough.  A team that offered him a contract this summer may still be interested?)
- Morrow (like alzner - needs to be off the roster. waive him if necessary)
- Petry  (im on the fence.  he's been great at times but he's not getting any younger. If someone paid well, id move him, although losing Weber and Petry would really hurt)

id field calls on just about anyone else.   I am not interested in trading drouin, galchenyuk, lehkonen, gallagher, mete, danault unless the offer was more than 'fair market value.'

And then there's price.   As a goalie i think he's got a lot of mileage left in the tank, his age doesnt scare me.  I think he could be easily traded (albeit to only a handful of teams that could afford him) but honestly, if you're going through a major rebuild and taking those vet. salaries off the books, prices cost will not hurt our cap and he might make us respectable as we go through the transition.

 



 



 

 

I think Shaw is ver movable too, especially if you keep some salary, and I have given up on Galchenyuk and would move him too (for the right price of course). 

But to me the biggest roadblock is Price. It just doesn't make sense to rebuild and keep him. I think he's playing well again but the age is already starting to show. What point is there in keeping him for 3 years from now. If we rebuild, we have to move him too. 

Also, I would love Draisaitl but its going to be hard to get proven stars like that. It better to go after those blue chip prospect and high draft picks, sort of like Sergachev was last year. 

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3 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I think Shaw is ver movable too, especially if you keep some salary, and I have given up on Galchenyuk and would move him too (for the right price of course). 

But to me the biggest roadblock is Price. It just doesn't make sense to rebuild and keep him. I think he's playing well again but the age is already starting to show. What point is there in keeping him for 3 years from now. If we rebuild, we have to move him too. 

Also, I would love Draisaitl but its going to be hard to get proven stars like that. It better to go after those blue chip prospect and high draft picks, sort of like Sergachev was last year. 

Yeah, Id definitely move shaw if someone offered me value.  He's the type of player you can move, or keep - he'll show up no matter what & he hasnt done anything too stupid for a while.  We dont need his cap space.

I understand what you're saying about price but honestly you get rid  of Max, Weber, Pleks, maybe Shaw, maybe Alzner - thats a tonnnne of money and what is likely coming back is, at least in part, ELC thats a whole lot of open cap space.  Sure, in 4-5 years we may need that money but really think it wont be an issue for a while. I also think Price will be good for us for a while - and - i dont see anyone giving us a lot of value for him. 
 

I agree about the prospect thing.  There were rumblings about us offering players for Barzal last year/summer.  At the time he was just a prospect.  A 16th overall pick with skill but only a couple of games (and no points) to his name.  Fast forward this year, he's nearly a PPG and a game-breaking talent.  Good luck getting him now. 

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3 hours ago, habsisme said:

Are you kidding me!? They didn't even nominate him for him the Clancy.... this is not even an argument... the team hated him.

While I'm dispelling nonsense, Galchenyuk is not a Center, maybe coulda, shoulda been one, but not gonna happen, get over it! 

Not kidding you at all... I agree with you that "the team" hated him, but the team is something directed by Bergevin, Therrien, and company. I imagine some of PK's teammates might not have liked his personality and others loved him, which can be said about just about anyone. I don't think PK was traded or hated because of his teammates, I think that stemmed from Therrien's bigotry and ego.

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On the subject of trading Pacman or Weber, I'd deal them both. There would be a bit of a cap recapture penalty risk with dealing Weber now and the other issue would be convincing someone he's healthy if he doesn't make it back by the trade deadline. But I'd easily deal them both BECAUSE I don't see us being able to win this year or next, and after that, those two pieces have a lot less value (Pacioretty because he'll be on a more expensive contract and Weber because he's older and his performance will likely have dropped off further).

Agreed that Edmonton and Toronto could be two teams to overpay for Weber. The Isles might be another. Or Dallas. The Pens, if they're ditching Letang, might have interest in replacing him with a Crosby favorite. Buffalo always seems like they're anxious to hit a homerun, even though they too aren't contenders right now. And what about Vegas? They weren't expected to hang around this long, but would McPhee (who has the cap room) be interested in putting a more serious stamp on this franchise and giving his guys an even better shot this year? I think Edmonton remains the best target though, for reasons stated above. They have a need for defence, they have an abundance of young skilled forwards, and they have a GM who like our own, over-evaluates grit and toughness. Would love to find a way to finagle Edmonton's 2018 1st rounder out of them if we do try to make a deal because there's a chance it could be a lottery pick.

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As for Pacioretty, Edm remains an option. The Isles, LA, Ana, SJ, Pit, Cal, Phi, NYR, Car, and Stl have all been rumored as potential destinations. The last two are particularly interesting. Carolina has young players like Lindholm, Fleury, Hanifin, Zykov, Slavin, etc. Stl has guys like Robert Thomas, Barbashev, Kyrou, Kostin, etc. Both teams could help us address needs within our organization.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

On the subject of trading Pacman or Weber, I'd deal them both. There would be a bit of a cap recapture penalty risk with dealing Weber now and the other issue would be convincing someone he's healthy if he doesn't make it back by the trade deadline. But I'd easily deal them both BECAUSE I don't see us being able to win this year or next, and after that, those two pieces have a lot less value (Pacioretty because he'll be on a more expensive contract and Weber because he's older and his performance will likely have dropped off further).

Agreed that Edmonton and Toronto could be two teams to overpay for Weber. The Isles might be another. Or Dallas. The Pens, if they're ditching Letang, might have interest in replacing him with a Crosby favorite. Buffalo always seems like they're anxious to hit a homerun, even though they too aren't contenders right now. And what about Vegas? They weren't expected to hang around this long, but would McPhee (who has the cap room) be interested in putting a more serious stamp on this franchise and giving his guys an even better shot this year? I think Edmonton remains the best target though, for reasons stated above. They have a need for defence, they have an abundance of young skilled forwards, and they have a GM who like our own, over-evaluates grit and toughness. Would love to find a way to finagle Edmonton's 2018 1st rounder out of them if we do try to make a deal because there's a chance it could be a lottery pick.

Lamoriello vs Bergevin. Hmmmm.....I don't think Toronto overpays for Weber.

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1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

Lamoriello vs Bergevin. Hmmmm.....I don't think Toronto overpays for Weber.

If you feel like you have a shot at a Cup and you need one more piece, you're willing to overpay in futures to make that happen. Even good GM's will and should do this.

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It's an interesting idea and it could make sense for both sides, the Leafs are super deep at forward and desperately need a guy like Weber, and the Habs need to move on from an aging core and need forwards. Rielly-Weber / Gardiner-Hainsey / Borgman-Zaitsev isn't Nashville or Anaheim but it's a pretty solid group of defensemen. I like Rielly and Gardiner a lot and Weber stabilizes a top pairing and slots Rielly/Gardiner into roles they're suited for as #2/#3. I know I'm on record as being negative about the trade but Weber's still a super effective defender and the Leafs have the horses on LD to complement him. 

The challenge is finding a fit, it's hard to find a package that makes sense. I'm sure Babcock would be salivating at the idea of a Rielly-Weber top pairing in the playoffs but NHL teams generally don't give up proven top line forwards like Marner or Nylander when they're only 20 and 21 years old. After that Kapanen and Liljegren are nice but I don't know they're enough if I'm moving Weber. You'd probably have to take Bozak as a cap dump too, and then you're asking for the Leafs to give up a 1RW and 3C off their roster in a year they plan to contend which is a tough ask.

I guess the nice thing is Carr/Byron could grease the wheels a bit, Byron especially would slot in perfectly with their speed up front. I think the Habs should be getting significant value back for Pacioretty but I think considering age and contracts we might have to be willing to take 75 cents on the dollar for Weber, or include more value (Hudon/Lehkonen) going back to move him. Hudon and Lehkonen are options too, they're definitely not throw-ins but if you can do something like Weber+Hudon/Lehkonen for Nylander/Marner+Liljegren+Bozak+picks you have to at least think about it. 

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13 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

If you feel like you have a shot at a Cup and you need one more piece, you're willing to overpay in futures to make that happen. Even good GM's will and should do this.

I meant to insinuate Lamoriello would take MB to the cleaners if they made a deal.

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15 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I meant to insinuate Lamoriello would take MB to the cleaners if they made a deal.

Interestingly though, Lamoriello has made very few bad trades over his long history, but, speaking to BigTed's point, the few he has made that were sort of "not so great" were mostly to acquire guys for a playoff push.  So there's a history of him making otherwise "bad" trades, to push his team over the top to compete now. 

So I think you're both right.  In a vacuum, id hate to see what an MB-LL trade would look like from our standpoint.  But considering we'd be offering them a guy who could take the team to contender status, he (LL) might well overpay to get weber.  

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I'll put this here because its not a real "rumor" but:

For fun, Eklund ran a "if you were a rival GM what would you offer for Carey Price" and got a lot of interesting ideas.  Obviously this is 100% made up and just fan submissions so its not like it has any weight (especially considering Marc Bergevin will likely never deal price) but some interesting suggestions from Flames and Oilers fans.  The most interesting deal seems to be from the flyers:

To Montreal: 
Simmonds
Sanheim-D 
Lehtera-C 
1st or 2nd Round Pick in 2019 or 2020 or Scott Laughton (Montreal can choose) 
1st Round Pick in 2018 (Montreal can choose either Philly or St. Louis' Pick) 

To Phildaelphia: 
Price-G 

Full story here: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Carey-Price-to-Thurs-Buzzcast/1/90071

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18 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I'll put this here because its not a real "rumor" but:

For fun, Eklund ran a "if you were a rival GM what would you offer for Carey Price" and got a lot of interesting ideas.  Obviously this is 100% made up and just fan submissions so its not like it has any weight (especially considering Marc Bergevin will likely never deal price) but some interesting suggestions from Flames and Oilers fans.  The most interesting deal seems to be from the flyers:

To Montreal: 
Simmonds
Sanheim-D 
Lehtera-C 
1st or 2nd Round Pick in 2019 or 2020 or Scott Laughton (Montreal can choose) 
1st Round Pick in 2018 (Montreal can choose either Philly or St. Louis' Pick) 

To Phildaelphia: 
Price-G 

Full story here: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Carey-Price-to-Thurs-Buzzcast/1/90071

If Philly offered that, I'd take the two 1st rounders and the rest of that package and run. Hell yeah.

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9 hours ago, maas_art said:

Interestingly though, Lamoriello has made very few bad trades over his long history, but, speaking to BigTed's point, the few he has made that were sort of "not so great" were mostly to acquire guys for a playoff push.  So there's a history of him making otherwise "bad" trades, to push his team over the top to compete now. 

So I think you're both right.  In a vacuum, id hate to see what an MB-LL trade would look like from our standpoint.  But considering we'd be offering them a guy who could take the team to contender status, he (LL) might well overpay to get weber.  

I'd be inclined to think he would do that after this season is over. I think he knows they aren't quite there yet even if they added Weber.

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12 hours ago, habs1952 said:

I'd be inclined to think he would do that after this season is over. I think he knows they aren't quite there yet even if they added Weber.

I buy that but also its rare, especially with a young team, to just win a cup out of nowhere. usually you have to have a couple of 'lead up' post seasons to get you there. I could see LL trading for Weber now with a hope of winning a couple of rounds this year and then going all the way the next or the year after.  

I think its probably moot while MB is at the helm but I do think LL would make a strong pitch for Weber and i think he'd actually help the leafs (or the oilers) a LOT.  Both teams' defense would automatically get way better overnight just by everyone shifting down the depth chart a little. 

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