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2017-18 If I Were GM


BigTed3
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The need to trade Patches and Weber as a key element in the team's rebuild has been glaring for months and it has been something I have urged along with the need to trade Price. Unfortunately, Bergevin has made that almost impossible now with the ridiculous contract he coughed up for the goaltender which kicks in for the 2018 season. The latter contract carries a no trade clause as if one was necessary with the boat anchor money involved. Name one team that would take Carey having to make that much cap space available for next year. And this for a goaltender who will be 31 years old before the start of next season. The colossal stupidity of this deal makes me angry. I believe he could be moved this year before the no trade kicks in but we would need a willing trading partner and ... well ..... there is only one Bergevin in this league sadly for this franchise and we have him! Patches has been a good soldier for the team and productive in the regular season context but he is closing in on his best before date and is about to get very expensive. Weber is already VERY expensive and declining in value as the days go by ...

The team currently stands 15th in the conference and has only beaten the 16th place team (Buffalo) with a collective 5 goals for and 13 against. This is with the aforementioned players in the line-up. Radulov's loss hurts as he was a heart and soul guy and a fan favourite. We could not keep him ... the economics of his demands for term and money were too much. So be it! Markov ... same deal .... see ya! No one else picked him up either ...... Losing Sergychev/Bo/Emelin effectively for Drouin ..... complete stupidity!

People here are talking about trading GallyA ..... they must have attended the M. Bergevin school of how to be a lousy NHL General Manager and ruin your franchise. His trade value is zero at the moment ... yet he is a skilled player ... let him redevelop....there is time in a rebuild ... that's the beauty ... he will repay the faith! Trust me .......

The team must rebuild with patience and focus ... develop with youth and skill ..... negotiate with sage and caution ... oops ... that means current management must go too!

TRADE Patches and Weber and Shaw and Plekanec and other roster players for whatever we can get in futures ie picks and or high level prospects. Keep young talent only ie the Gallies, Lehkonen, Drouin, Mete, Juulesen, Lindgren. If PRICE can be moved we may have to take back salary which will be deadwood but if we could get out from under that albatross of a salary sucking cap monster of a contract ..... IT IS WORTH IT!

This team is going nowhere as more and more people are starting to realize this season. We have a lottery pick in our future this year so let's make it a high one and watch some young talent progress and develop. If you want a sneak peak at the promise for the future .... pay close attention to the Leafs .... that could be us in 3 years.  

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1 hour ago, jeff33 said:

Trade patchy is number 1, trade weber is number 2 though so hang onto that C for a minute.

Im not a "we must trade Pacioretty for the sake of trading Pacioretty" supporter by any means.  I think he's a very useful player but when you look at our holes, we may need to trade one guy to get back 2 - and he's certainly an option.  With Galchenuk playing too far down the roster it gives us an opportunity to move Patches and promote AG27 to his spot too. 

As for Weber - there's no way MB is trading Weber imho - at least not for a few more years.  Weber is everything Marc Bergevin is trying to accomplish with this team.  Unfortunately, he (MB) is delusional enough to think thats a positive. 

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8 hours ago, maas_art said:

Im not a "we must trade Pacioretty for the sake of trading Pacioretty" supporter by any means.  I think he's a very useful player but when you look at our holes, we may need to trade one guy to get back 2 - and he's certainly an option.  With Galchenuk playing too far down the roster it gives us an opportunity to move Patches and promote AG27 to his spot too. 

As for Weber - there's no way MB is trading Weber imho - at least not for a few more years.  Weber is everything Marc Bergevin is trying to accomplish with this team.  Unfortunately, he (MB) is delusional enough to think thats a positive. 

actually i should have qualified that.

1. is firing bergevin, and thats huge. if he stays, weber stays, and patchy gets re upped to way more than he is worth and theres no going back from there. its price weber patchy for the next decade on horrible contracts. its our version of the kessel phaneuf days in toronto.

understand....for me it goes beyond 2 or 3 or even 4 on this list. this is a teardown. "if I were GM"  all of our core guys are gone for whatever best packages of picks and prospects I could get, and no one is untouchable on the roster. 

do i think that will happen? no. but I do think if we trade patchy for a solid return before he eats up our cap its the best move we can make. 

 

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14 hours ago, jeff33 said:

actually i should have qualified that.

1. is firing bergevin, and thats huge. if he stays, weber stays, and patchy gets re upped to way more than he is worth and theres no going back from there. its price weber patchy for the next decade on horrible contracts. its our version of the kessel phaneuf days in toronto.

understand....for me it goes beyond 2 or 3 or even 4 on this list. this is a teardown. "if I were GM"  all of our core guys are gone for whatever best packages of picks and prospects I could get, and no one is untouchable on the roster. 

do i think that will happen? no. but I do think if we trade patchy for a solid return before he eats up our cap its the best move we can make. 

 

Agree completely. 

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If I were replacing MB as GM...

I believe we should gauge the trade market for Shea Weber. It hurt losing Subban in that deal, and it'll hurt more calling "quits" on Weber in Montreal... but it'll hurt even worse if he's still with Montreal in 4+ years from now. What's available? Certainly we'd take a rather large contract coming back, or have to pay some of his salary...

Max Pacioretty has immediate trade value. He's someone that could bring back useful pieces in a rebuild. Picks and prospects, easily. His contract expires in July 2019. Dealing him sooner will get us a greater haul.

We're stuck with Price. There's no market for goaltenders in the NHL. Even if the sports media consistently maintains that he's "the best in the world." At $10.5 million for 8 seasons, Carey is our goaltender. That's that.

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

If I were replacing MB as GM...

I believe we should gauge the trade market for Shea Weber. It hurt losing Subban in that deal, and it'll hurt more calling "quits" on Weber in Montreal... but it'll hurt even worse if he's still with Montreal in 4+ years from now. What's available? Certainly we'd take a rather large contract coming back, or have to pay some of his salary...

Max Pacioretty has immediate trade value. He's someone that could bring back useful pieces in a rebuild. Picks and prospects, easily. His contract expires in July 2019. Dealing him sooner will get us a greater haul.

We're stuck with Price. There's no market for goaltenders in the NHL. Even if the sports media consistently maintains that he's "the best in the world." At $10.5 million for 8 seasons, Carey is our goaltender. That's that.

My thoughts.  As mentioned, getting rid of Bergevin would be a prerequisite.  If that isnt done, none of this could happen. 

- Id definitely put major feelers out on dealing max. I think he's a great player, he's valuable to this team but he is going to end up with a ridiculous payday in a short time and we can ill-afford him.  Id love to get assets for him now. I suspect you could get a solid roster player and a blue-chip prospect who could be a core player for a decade if you were shrewd. 

- I like Weber. I think, despite his misleading advanced stats, he is one of the best positional defensmen we've had in decades and he can be a super addition to any blueline but the cost was waaaaaaay too high to acquire him. PK + Weber makes sense. Weber for PK makes zero.   I wouldnt necessarily jump the gun to get him off our roster but a smart GM would be earmarking 2 - 3 years from now to get out while his reputation is still high but we know his value is dropping.  Right now, honestly the GMs who would have traded for him a year ago I think would still value him the same way - maybe even higher. That doesnt include every GM in the league but I have zero doubt you'd find plenty of takers. I think you could get a monster package from a team like Edmonton for example.

-  I think you're wrong about Price.  There would be very very few teams that could take him, but i think most would be interested.  I agree that goalie markets are (and are always) very flat, but as the premier goalie in the world right now (rightly or wrongly) Price comes with a great deal of sizzle and that is much easier to sell than the steak.  I think you could get a valueable roster player, some very high picks and at least a couple of top end prospects for him.   That said, if im on rebuild, im not sure im dumping price.  Remember that with a rebuild you end up with oodles of money. Most of your players will be young, on ELCs and you can certainly afford to carry a few big contracts.   I think a guy like Price could possibly make us somewhat competitive during a rebuild, which is a nice option.  Of course if you get offered some insane deal, you take it but I dont see it happening.

All of this talk has me really frustrated though.  Think back a couple of years to our quarter final loss to the Rangers. Everything was coming together. Price had turned a corner, PK was becoming a star, we had just acquired Petry.  Markov and Plekanec were still playing well,  Galchenyuk and Gallagher were the future. We had good prospects (who we've since squandered)...imagine what this team would have looked like with a real coach at the time - and/or a system in the minors that didnt ruin young players. 

We should be better, not worse right now... and yet, 3 years later, im not sure what to make of this team. 

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55 minutes ago, Habituallity said:

Letting Radulov walk away for nothing was the end for me in having any kind of hope bergevin still might turn this train wreck around

Don't forget about Markov walking too. 

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We don't look like a team that's going to win it all this year. So unless we find a way to make use of our cap space and turn things around, the "core" going forward is going to be Price, Weber, Petry, Alzner, Schlemko, Drouin, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Shaw. Those are the veteran players signed long-term and/or getting paid the most. That's a depressing situation. MB went all in after the Subban trade, but he went all in holding a less than stellar hand (Therrien) and lost his bet. Now we're in no-man's land with no significant chance of winning now but a very muddled cap picture going forward. Most of the players I listed above are at or past prime, they're not going to be getting much better than they are now and most are probably not helping you win a Cup 3-5 years from now.

That said, a number of these players still have value now. Today. Pacioretty is excellent value for his contract. He's an elite goal scorer. As good a scorer as Kessel but with a better defensive game. A better scorer than Duchene and on a friendlier contract (despite being two years older). If you're a contender like the Caps, Oilers, Pens, Hawks, Ducks, etc. you'd love to add a player like that, whom you can tuck under the cap and get instant first-line quality from. If I'm one of those teams in the hunt at trade deadline, I'd happily give up three assets (first rounder, top prospect, and another piece) to maybe make me the favorite for a Cup.

Weber and Price are harder to trade because of their contracts, but I think there would still be a market for them, probably moreso in the off-season though. I think Lindgren is capable of being a starter in the NHL, but it would take a convincing deal for me to trade Carey though, as I'm not sure the return in the trade would be worth it. With Markov already gone and Plekanec likely not back next year, there isn't an immediate need to get rid of Carey's cap hit if we can deal Weber. I'd love to turn Weber into a young NHL defender. A team like Edmonton or Columbus or so on might be willing to part with a young D man like a Nurse or Murray or Werenski if we give them Weber and take back some short-term cap hit. Maybe Anaheim or Minnesota deals away a young D man too.

If I'm GM, I'd focus on which young players can still help me for several years. Our top 6 can actually be fairly preserved: Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Lehkonen, and Hudon can all be top 6 players for another 5 years. McCarron and Danault and DLR are still good fits for the bottom 6 for a while. We need to add a couple of other scoring pieces including a key center, but if you're dealing Pacioretty and Weber, that should be doable. On the back end, you look to build around Mete (top 4 lefty), Juulsen (2nd pairing righty), Lernout (3rd pairing righty), and maybe you keep Petry if there's no good trade for him. But in addition to Weber, I'd be fine moving out Alzner and maybe Schlemko.

So absolutely, our GM needs to be open to trading Pacioretty, Weber, Plekanec, Shaw, Byron, Alzner, Schlemko, etc. and listening to offers for Gallagher and Petry if something really good comes along. I think there are markets for most of those players, and even after dealing them, it still leaves the team in a situation where it can re-build on the fly and be competitive again in 2-3 years. But look at teams that want to win now and target young NHL players off those teams...

- William Nylander in Toronto

- Murray or Werenski or Wennberg or P-L Dubois in Columbus

- Ryan Hartman in Chicago

- Brodin or Dumba or Eriksson Ek in Minnesota

- Sam Bennett in Calgary

- RNH, Klefbom, Puljujarvi or Nurse in Edmonton

 

Offer guys like Pacioretty and Weber and Price and Gallagher and Petry around and see what other teams are willing to give up to make their runs. We're not winning a Cup now, so we may as well focus on making ourselves competitive going forward.

 

 

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Any player not on an entry level or expiring contract should be moved. The time to be sentimental is over. It doesn't matter that there's supposedly no generational talent in this draft; maybe we trade the pick. Maybe we package it. It's imperative to maximize returns from this point out.

This core is not capable of winning now, and the economics of the league right now are such that it won't even have a chance in the coming seasons. If we hang on to false hope, we're going to regret it. We either start the rebuild from a position of strength now—and I do mean right now, not later in the season—or we don't. Every day we wait makes this harder.

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1 hour ago, habs_93 said:

Any player not on an entry level or expiring contract should be moved. The time to be sentimental is over. It doesn't matter that there's supposedly no generational talent in this draft; maybe we trade the pick. Maybe we package it. It's imperative to maximize returns from this point out.

This core is not capable of winning now, and the economics of the league right now are such that it won't even have a chance in the coming seasons. If we hang on to false hope, we're going to regret it. We either start the rebuild from a position of strength now—and I do mean right now, not later in the season—or we don't. Every day we wait makes this harder.

So, you're basically talking about trading anyone with at least a 2 year deal, tanking (for high picks), and a rebuild? Similar to TO? Would fans go for that? We're already into 6 years of MB,,, would we have to go thru another 4-5-6 years? i'm not sure if I can hang on that long.  :blink:

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Awesome posts maas_art and BigTed3. Really enjoyed reading through those. Carey is the one over-payed long-term player I would be willing to keep through a rebuild. But that does - as has been mentioned - rely on our ability to move on from someone like Weber. Someone recommended Edmonton as a potential destination for someone like Weber. Could make sense. Edmonton is certainly a team "on the up" and believes they can win very, very soon.

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Price and Weber should be the immediate priorities to move. Price has a no trade starting next year and will be the toughest to trade. It may be mission impossible and we would have to take back some contract on an aging/ineffective asset to do so which is okay as long as it is relatively shorter term (2 or 3 years) max. We won't get much of value on a rebuild for him except maybe a pick(s). Weber should bring return if we pick the right dance partner with an eye to picks and/or high level prospects. Most tradable asset is Patches but the sooner the better with picks and prospects the key.

All of this of course is dependent on the obvious first move which is to fire Bergevin immediately. The damage he has done to this franchise is immeasurable and as it is this may be a long term recovery but he is uniquely unqualified to be running an NHL franchise and definitely cannot be a part of any rebuild here. Each day that he remains makes the task ahead more formidable.

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15 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

So, you're basically talking about trading anyone with at least a 2 year deal, tanking (for high picks), and a rebuild? Similar to TO? Would fans go for that? We're already into 6 years of MB,,, would we have to go thru another 4-5-6 years? i'm not sure if I can hang on that long.  :blink:

Fans don't really have a choice. We're going absolutely nowhere with this stuff, full stop. Fans will either have to get comfortable with a 4-6 year rebuild, or get comfortable with being Edmonton/Toronto of the 2000s: a permanent bubble team treading water.

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3 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

Fans don't really have a choice. We're going absolutely nowhere with this stuff, full stop. Fans will either have to get comfortable with a 4-6 year rebuild, or get comfortable with being Edmonton/Toronto of the 2000s: a permanent bubble team treading water.

good post, yeah MB has drained the farm and traded lots of talent for grit, this team is in stall mode

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44 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

Fans don't really have a choice. We're going absolutely nowhere with this stuff, full stop. Fans will either have to get comfortable with a 4-6 year rebuild, or get comfortable with being Edmonton/Toronto of the 2000s: a permanent bubble team treading water.

Imho that's Bergevin's plan.  He routinely says "make the playoffs, anything can happen" and points to teams like LA that are "built for the playoffs" but what he doesnt understand is that a good GM builds the best team available.  You dont try to make the playoffs and "see what happens."  Thats what a team on a rebuild does.  Thats not what a team that goes all in & loses 4 years on its best defenseman does.  Thats not what a team does with key players who are well into their 30s (and a defensman who was a year short of 40!)

Bergevin probably looks at the 2006 oilers as his poster-team. they barely made the playoffs, they played with grit and made it to the finals.  And you know what, maybe they could have won. Carolina won with a crap team.  Boston won with a crap team.... but we call those "flukes."  

No serious GM builds his team to mimic either one of those rosters... oh wait.... 

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56 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

Fans don't really have a choice. We're going absolutely nowhere with this stuff, full stop. Fans will either have to get comfortable with a 4-6 year rebuild, or get comfortable with being Edmonton/Toronto of the 2000s: a permanent bubble team treading water.

We are all fans, and thats what we want.  I think people would be more than happy if management said we are getting serious about a cup, we are offloading all our bad contracts and starting fresh. we still have price to keep it respectable ( I would happily trade him if someone wants that contract, I just think no one does) drouin, lehkonen, hudon....build on that. pick up a decent UFA or 2 to tide things over and we would be the same team we are now, just with a future. I dont even see it being a drastic dropoff

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16 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Imho that's Bergevin's plan.  He routinely says "make the playoffs, anything can happen" and points to teams like LA that are "built for the playoffs" but what he doesnt understand is that a good GM builds the best team available.  You dont try to make the playoffs and "see what happens."  Thats what a team on a rebuild does.  Thats not what a team that goes all in & loses 4 years on its best defenseman does.  Thats not what a team does with key players who are well into their 30s (and a defensman who was a year short of 40!)

Bergevin probably looks at the 2006 oilers as his poster-team. they barely made the playoffs, they played with grit and made it to the finals.  And you know what, maybe they could have won. Carolina won with a crap team.  Boston won with a crap team.... but we call those "flukes."  

No serious GM builds his team to mimic either one of those rosters... oh wait.... 

I agree. Bergevin is clearly stuck in the late 90s, but it goes deeper than that. He seems to want to aggressively refuse to acknowledge that probability exists. It's rather unfortunate.

It's imperative for the team to move Weber and Price now, not later. They are both valuable players, but we're going to get the real benefit from their mystique value, and that has an expiration date. We can still "win" the Weber trade if we make it into a time-delayed three-way and end up with prospects and/or picks that we can use to acquire players with elite talent who peak in contractually convenient times for us in the future. Let's win it.

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