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2017-18 If I Were GM


BigTed3
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So to revise:

Galchenyuk-Drouin-Gallagher

Pacioretty-Eller-Lehkonen

Hudon-Danault-DeBrincat

Andrighetto-Plekanec-Kassian

 

And this is just one example. You could also put AG at center with something like this

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

Hudon-Drouin-Lehkonen

Danault-Eller-DeBrincat

Andrighetto-Plekanec-Kassian

 

 

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5 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

Excellent assessment, BT. Obviously we don't know, but I would suspect that had Galchenyuk been developed properly we'd be in a much better situation right now.

Sad Part #3: its not even much of an assessment or a "what if we had gambled on this"... it's just removing the numerous moves that made no sense. That made us older without getting better. That made us less skilled. That added players with grit but not much else. That made us slower. A lot of what Bergevin has done is subtraction by addition. Putting in players like Murray, Bouillon, King, Ott, Martinsen, Mike Brown, Parros, Alzner, Morrow, Flynn, Shaw, etc. didn't cost us a ton in terms of assets, but it made our line-up weaker because we ended up giving quality time to these guys and taking it away from the development of younger skilled players, which in turn led us to trade away better-quality guys. The Eller trade was a mistake, but frankly not as big a mistake as the Shaw acquisition, and the Danault emergence has off-set the Eller loss to some degree. The Subban trade really stands out as the one move that was harmful to our present and future because of the guy we lost (as opposed to the player we added, because Weber has still been very good, just nowhere near as good as Subban). And even when you look at Subban, that trade was made because MB and MT didn't like his personality.  All in all, Bergevin's first few years were questionable, but his last 18 months have been downright atrocious, mostly because he has had the polar opposite view of how to build a team from what actually breeds success in today's NHL. Nowadays, you need speed, you need skill, and you need to develop your young players via the draft and sign them to cheap deals. The Habs have been one of the weakest teams in the league in drafting and development over the past 5 years, hence the need to fill the line-up with under-achieving cast-offs from other teams.

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5 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I feel like there's been a lot of mistakes that were fairly obvious mistakes at the time they happened.

This cannot be overstated enough. 

Im a glass half full guy. I looked at the moves this summer & thought we were worse, but that we would be competitive (at least in the regular season). I dont think the start we had was predictable (we're still shooting at historically low percentages) but we ALL knew we were worse than last year.  How did MB not see this? 

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4 minutes ago, maas_art said:

This cannot be overstated enough. 

Im a glass half full guy. I looked at the moves this summer & thought we were worse, but that we would be competitive (at least in the regular season). I dont think the start we had was predictable (we're still shooting at historically low percentages) but we ALL knew we were worse than last year.  How did MB not see this? 

he sees grit and jam as great assets and character lots of character, and as long as they have a cup ring they are usefull

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8 hours ago, maas_art said:

This cannot be overstated enough. 

Im a glass half full guy. I looked at the moves this summer & thought we were worse, but that we would be competitive (at least in the regular season). I dont think the start we had was predictable (we're still shooting at historically low percentages) but we ALL knew we were worse than last year.  How did MB not see this? 

 

8 hours ago, jwlk said:

he sees grit and jam as great assets and character lots of character, and as long as they have a cup ring they are usefull

But to say he thought the defence was better than last year? And to say he thought we were better on D because we had good puck moving D men now? It's almost delusional.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So they've moved Klefbom off the top pairing in Edmonton and there's been a fair bit of negativity swirling around him from media guys carrying water for Chiarelli. 

I would normally think it's insane to expect a GM to move a 24 year old top pair D signed for 6 more years at 4.1M but it is Chiarelli we're talking about...

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Just now, Noob616 said:

So they've moved Klefbom off the top pairing in Edmonton and there's been a fair bit of negativity swirling around him from media guys carrying water for Chiarelli. 

I would normally think it's insane to expect a GM to move a 24 year old top pair D signed for 6 more years at 4.1M but it is Chiarelli we're talking about...

The problem is that while i think we have many desirable pieces Chiarelli would jump to acquire (Weber, Pacioretty, Gallagher etc) I am pretty sure MB wont move them.  I could see him trying Shaw for Klefbom but I suspect we'd have to add a fair bit to our side for Chiarelli to bite. 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

The problem is that while i think we have many desirable pieces Chiarelli would jump to acquire (Weber, Pacioretty, Gallagher etc) I am pretty sure MB wont move them.  I could see him trying Shaw for Klefbom but I suspect we'd have to add a fair bit to our side for Chiarelli to bite. 

Ooooooh Shaw+ for Klefbom is so crazy it just might work. Only concern is the + would probably have to be Lehkonen in that case. I bet Gallagher would be an interesting piece for them too, he's very much a Chiarelli style player and he's on a crazy good contract which is nice since Draisaitl and McDavid are owed a billion dollars for a decade now.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Edmonton's got a lot of interesting pieces. I'd love to grab Klefbom AND another player like RNH... make it a package deal.

This summer i think they would have moved RNH.  Right now i think they see him as their best player so far this year.  At some point they'll consider moving him again but I dont think its now.

I agree though - if you had two smart GMs you probably could make a huge package deal & make both of our teams immediately better.  But its Bergevin and Chiarelli so... :P

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With the Coyotes so bad this year I really wonder if they'd consider moving OEL.  I have no idea what it would cost us, and i think there's a chance we have no way of acquiring him, but what about something like:

Pacioretty / Alzner  for OEL.   They get back a top 5 goal scorer in the league, and a top 4 defensman (well we can pretend) and we get a bonefide top pairing LD. If they dont want Alzner we can keep him (we certainly have the cap space) but im not sure where he'd go in the lineup.

Up front Chucky would move up the lineup & I *think* we'd be ok.   On the back-end we'd be miles better.  

OEL-Weber 
Mete-Petry  

Is a top flight top 4. 
Schlemko-Benn-Morrow-Jerabek etc etc - we have plenty to choose from for the bottom pairing. 

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17 minutes ago, maas_art said:

With the Coyotes so bad this year I really wonder if they'd consider moving OEL.  I have no idea what it would cost us, and i think there's a chance we have no way of acquiring him, but what about something like:

Pacioretty / Alzner  for OEL.   They get back a top 5 goal scorer in the league, and a top 4 defensman (well we can pretend) and we get a bonefide top pairing LD. If they dont want Alzner we can keep him (we certainly have the cap space) but im not sure where he'd go in the lineup.

Up front Chucky would move up the lineup & I *think* we'd be ok.   On the back-end we'd be miles better.  

OEL-Weber 
Mete-Petry  

Is a top flight top 4. 
Schlemko-Benn-Morrow-Jerabek etc etc - we have plenty to choose from for the bottom pairing. 

I suspect it's more likely Bergevin would propose Galchenyuk for OEL rather than dealing away Pacioretty. However, this is the "If I were G.M." thread.

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10 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I suspect it's more likely Bergevin would propose Galchenyuk for OEL rather than dealing away Pacioretty. However, this is the "If I were G.M." thread.

Maybe - although i think Max would have way more value in a trade than Galchenyuk right now (which is crazy to me). I think you'd have to add pretty substantially to AG for OEL but with Max its a decent 1 for 1 if they think they need more goals. 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Maybe - although i think Max would have way more value in a trade than Galchenyuk right now (which is crazy to me). I think you'd have to add pretty substantially to AG for OEL but with Max its a decent 1 for 1 if they think they need more goals. 

Patches for OEL would be a big gamble for both teams since both players are UFA after next year. I think too the Habs would have a better chance at re-signing OEL than the Yotes would have at re-signing Patches.

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^^ Supposedly, Chayka has been telling other GM's not to bother asking him about OEL because "he's not available" although you have to figure everyone's got a price. I'd love to get OEL here obviously. He's a legit top pairing D man.

From the Yotes viewpoint, though, you have to wonder what they'd want. I'm not sure it's Pacioretty because he almost certainly won't re-sign there in a year and a half and Arizona isn't winning anything before then. I think Galchenyuk has more value to them, being a younger player and a guy who maybe stays there if he gets to be a first-line player and be a little less in the spotlight than if he's in Montreal. If I were Chayka, I'd also want to replace the OEL loss though, so I'd be asking for one of Mete or Juulsen as part of any deal. So I wonder if it might end up being more something like Galchenyuk, Shaw, and Mete to Arizona for Duclair and OEL.

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9 hours ago, maas_art said:

I dont know i would do that but id certainly consider Galchenyuk-Shaw-Juulsen for Duclair and OEL.

Seems like a pretty reasonable trade to me... Arizona has cap space and wants players who can be useful to them for the long haul. AG, if given a top line role as I outlined above, could be a good target to re-sign long term. Shaw is already locked up, and Juulsen is on an ELC. So all three guys could be contributors there for years. OEl is their captain but a UFA in less than two years and owed a payday. Duclair has been rumored to be on the outs in Arizona for a while but definitely has the potential to be a top 6 player. Duclair fills some of the offence lost by dealing AG and OEL fills the major need for a #1 LHD. It's the type of deal I can see helping both teams.

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31 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Seems like a pretty reasonable trade to me... Arizona has cap space and wants players who can be useful to them for the long haul. AG, if given a top line role as I outlined above, could be a good target to re-sign long term. Shaw is already locked up, and Juulsen is on an ELC. So all three guys could be contributors there for years. OEl is their captain but a UFA in less than two years and owed a payday. Duclair has been rumored to be on the outs in Arizona for a while but definitely has the potential to be a top 6 player. Duclair fills some of the offence lost by dealing AG and OEL fills the major need for a #1 LHD. It's the type of deal I can see helping both teams.

I can't see a deal being done for OEL. Wouldn't that be the same as the Habs trading their best D-man in Subban? I realize all the parts are still young but topnotch young D-men are hard to come by. 

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20 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I can't see a deal being done for OEL. Wouldn't that be the same as the Habs trading their best D-man in Subban? I realize all the parts are still young but topnotch young D-men are hard to come by. 

Sure, but OEL is 26 and the Habs would be giving up a younger star player in AG and a younger D former 1st rounder in Juulsen. So it's not like the Subban trade where the Habs gave up the better player now AND the better player for the future. Subban was also locked up long-term whereas OEL is a UFA in less than two years. And OEL is very good but he's not Subban good. So I think this trade would be very different than the Subban trade. If we had dealt Subban for a package like Draisaitl and Nurse or Huberdeau or Barkov plus a blue chip D prospect, then it would have put us in a very different position, and MB could have argued that we made the trade to strengthen a different position and/or to get better for the future. Instead, he just flat out lost the trade in every respect.

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I just can't shake this Klefbom idea. Normally I would find the idea completely laughable. Why would the Oilers trade a 24 year old #1D signed for 4.1M for 6 years when they plan to contend? He should be completely untouchable and for my money he's one of the most valuable assets in the NHL on that contract. I just feel like there's a perfect storm of narratives, cap/roster issues, Oilers media narrative nonsense, and the Chiarelli factor to make it a non-zero possibility.

  1. Klefbom is butter soft. We're talking about a guy with 4 hits this season after 11 games of ~25mins a night. In his last 4 seasons as a top 4 defenseman he's taken 9 penalties in 200 games. Chiarelli values gritty players, and especially gritty defensemen. He traded for Larsson who had over twice as many hits last season as Klefbom does in his career. He signed Lucic for insane money. He extended Gritty McGritface (Larsson) for 4 years and too much money. 
  2. There's a growing push to have Darnell Nurse take a step up and play a bigger role. He's been playing with Larsson on the top pair at even strength and people covering the Oilers have loved how gritty and physical they've been. Provided the Oilers management buys the hype that Nurse has taken a step forward, and Sekera will be coming back in 6ish weeks, they could very well believe they'd be able to run a top 4 of Nurse-Larsson-Sekera-Russell and could rationalize trading Klefbom for forward help that way.
  3. That same argument applies in the long run, Sekera is signed at 5.5M for a while, Russel at 4M, Larsson at 4.1M, and both Benning and Nurse (along with Maroon, Strome, Caggiula, Slepyshev, etc. etc.) need new contracts after this year, with McDavid's monster contract kicking in next year. Draisaitl makes 8.5M which is a concerning amount of money if he keeps playing as McDavid's LW and not as a 2C. They could rationalize the trade for cap relief, saving some money on D by squeezing Nurse/Benning on bridge deals and using the savings on a forward. They're in a real cap bind and it would be hard to justify moving RNH now after they're having scoring issues after moving Hall and Eberle for inferior players and cap savings. 

Much like the Hall and Eberle trades were dumb overpayments brought about by a sense they "needed" to be done, I think it's becoming an increasingly plausible scenario the Oilers feel like they "need" to move Klefbom for scoring help. I just think they're getting closer and closer to panic move time, and I can't see them moving anyone else really. They're not moving Larsson, he's Chiarelli's prize acquisition and not going anywhere. Sekera and Russell are signed too long for too much money to be traded. Same goes for Lucic. They're not getting an impact forward for Nurse or Strome. And now that the Oilers are having trouble scoring, I don't see how they move RNH if they're married to Draisaitl on McDavid's line. 

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52 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

I just can't shake this Klefbom idea. Normally I would find the idea completely laughable. Why would the Oilers trade a 24 year old #1D signed for 4.1M for 6 years when they plan to contend? He should be completely untouchable and for my money he's one of the most valuable assets in the NHL on that contract. I just feel like there's a perfect storm of narratives, cap/roster issues, Oilers media narrative nonsense, and the Chiarelli factor to make it a non-zero possibility.

  1. Klefbom is butter soft. We're talking about a guy with 4 hits this season after 11 games of ~25mins a night. In his last 4 seasons as a top 4 defenseman he's taken 9 penalties in 200 games. Chiarelli values gritty players, and especially gritty defensemen. He traded for Larsson who had over twice as many hits last season as Klefbom does in his career. He signed Lucic for insane money. He extended Gritty McGritface (Larsson) for 4 years and too much money. 
  2. There's a growing push to have Darnell Nurse take a step up and play a bigger role. He's been playing with Larsson on the top pair at even strength and people covering the Oilers have loved how gritty and physical they've been. Provided the Oilers management buys the hype that Nurse has taken a step forward, and Sekera will be coming back in 6ish weeks, they could very well believe they'd be able to run a top 4 of Nurse-Larsson-Sekera-Russell and could rationalize trading Klefbom for forward help that way.
  3. That same argument applies in the long run, Sekera is signed at 5.5M for a while, Russel at 4M, Larsson at 4.1M, and both Benning and Nurse (along with Maroon, Strome, Caggiula, Slepyshev, etc. etc.) need new contracts after this year, with McDavid's monster contract kicking in next year. Draisaitl makes 8.5M which is a concerning amount of money if he keeps playing as McDavid's LW and not as a 2C. They could rationalize the trade for cap relief, saving some money on D by squeezing Nurse/Benning on bridge deals and using the savings on a forward. They're in a real cap bind and it would be hard to justify moving RNH now after they're having scoring issues after moving Hall and Eberle for inferior players and cap savings. 

Much like the Hall and Eberle trades were dumb overpayments brought about by a sense they "needed" to be done, I think it's becoming an increasingly plausible scenario the Oilers feel like they "need" to move Klefbom for scoring help. I just think they're getting closer and closer to panic move time, and I can't see them moving anyone else really. They're not moving Larsson, he's Chiarelli's prize acquisition and not going anywhere. Sekera and Russell are signed too long for too much money to be traded. Same goes for Lucic. They're not getting an impact forward for Nurse or Strome. And now that the Oilers are having trouble scoring, I don't see how they move RNH if they're married to Draisaitl on McDavid's line. 

I agree completely. I actually think its more likely, not less, that Chiarelli makes a panic move asap, so why cant we reap the rewards? Lol.

I think that Chiarelli would highly covet Weber, Shaw, Pacioretty and Gallagher.  I dont think Bergevin would move Weber. The other guys, maybe.  Gallagher for Klefbom may be a 1 for 1 swap.   Shaw, we'd have to add someone.  But i think the answer may lie in Pacioretty.   

If you're looking to "add offense" then adding one of the top 5 goal scorers in teh NHL is a no brainer.   It would also allow Edmonton to split up McDavid and Draitsalt with Patches moving to McDavid's LW and Draitsatl going back to centre where he should be.    That frees up RNH to be moved.   For us, yes it sucks to lose patches but wing is the only position where we're actually stacked.  To move one of our top wingers & receive a top 2 centre and top 4 LD in return (both younger too) would be a huge upgrade from a position we are strong to positions we are weaker at.

What about:

RNH + Klefbom  for Pacioretty 

Theoretically it could help both teams immediately but i think for us its a short and long term win.


 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

 Gallagher for Klefbom may be a 1 for 1 swap.   Shaw, we'd have to add someone.  But i think the answer may lie in Pacioretty.   

What about:

RNH + Klefbom  for Pacioretty 

I think we'd have to add pretty significantly. My premise is they'll undervalue him but I think they still rate him as a (stylistically flawed) top pair guy and I doubt we get that for Gallagher or Shaw+. For Klefbom alone I think you could do Pacioretty straight up or Gallagher+Lehkonen (and I'd prefer just Pacioretty). For Pacioretty and RNH I think you're looking at Pacioretty+Gallagher which I'd still do in a heartbeat, and I think that deal still makes sense for both teams in the short and long term.

I don't think we'd be able to absolutely fleece them for Klefbom but I rate him very highly and his age/contract adds a ton of value. It's not so much that I think we'd get a Subban-Weber or Hall-Larsson level slam dunk trade out of him, but I just see Klefbom as a such an attractive asset that it'd be impossible to lose a trade for him. 

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59 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

I think we'd have to add pretty significantly. My premise is they'll undervalue him but I think they still rate him as a (stylistically flawed) top pair guy and I doubt we get that for Gallagher or Shaw+. For Klefbom alone I think you could do Pacioretty straight up or Gallagher+Lehkonen (and I'd prefer just Pacioretty). For Pacioretty and RNH I think you're looking at Pacioretty+Gallagher which I'd still do in a heartbeat, and I think that deal still makes sense for both teams in the short and long term.

I don't think we'd be able to absolutely fleece them for Klefbom but I rate him very highly and his age/contract adds a ton of value. It's not so much that I think we'd get a Subban-Weber or Hall-Larsson level slam dunk trade out of him, but I just see Klefbom as a such an attractive asset that it'd be impossible to lose a trade for him. 

I know what you're saying and I think it would take a smart GM to spin it, but I honestly think you're undervaluing Pacioretty.  
Goals scored in the NHL In the last 5 years:

1. Ovechkin
2. Pavelski
3. Crosby
4. Pacioretty
5. Benn
6. Tarasenko
7. Kane
8. Seguin
9. Tavares
10. Marchand

Also, Pacioretty is only 4 goals back of both Crosby and Pavelski  - had he'd started off better this year could actually be second. Im not saying he's as good, or better than any of the other names but I think you could demand a lot more than just RNH for him in return. 

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