State of the Habs

[eldag]

Interesting comments re: this franchise's commitment to winning juxtaposed as they are to the PK trade and what some players had to say about it .....

In the opinion of many that trade was one of the most horrendous mistakes a franchise could have made .. followed up by the fact that there is absolutely no cohesive plan in place to make this team a contender by tooling up this line-up with sufficient weapons to not only defend but to be able to score enough to climb to a championship level. The criticism of Bergevin is valid ... there is a reason he is rated as one of the worst GM's in the NHL and this team has no hope of challenging for the Cup this season as currently constituted. And yet ... ownership has gone radio silent and the fans are left with what? It surprises me that there are people who are defending this current regime and how it is operating. I hope you enjoy the resulting mess that will be presented this season ..... how do you call management's apathy a commitment to winning?

 

[BigTed3]

7 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

On the first line, I definitely agree .

On the second, it wasn't so much that I expected anybody to badmouth him, but there are different levels of praise and I remember thinking at the time that a lot of it sounded genuine.  Something along the lines of "both guys are great players, I'm happy I won't have to face Weber in the corners anymore, etc." would be expected from anybody - it's pretty much just the polite, cliché thing to say.  But a lot of the comments were clearly going Weber's way and suggesting that Montreal won the trade.  Now maybe it's just that most of these guys had played against Weber and being from the West hadn't seen as much of PK, but for the purposes of this discussion it still goes to show that some of the things that we perceive as obvious terrible moves are not seen that way by a lot of people in the hockey community.  I'm sure that our 'old-school' philosophy probably does dissuade some players, but I'd also think that there are just as many others who would love to come play with the Man-Mountain in such a stable system.

I'll say this:

A lot of players, particularly the ones in North America, are brought up in the Don Cherry culture of hockey, which is to say that playing through broken ribs and blocking shots and making big hits are looked on as commendable. And they are to a certain degree. It's physically grueling to play hockey at a high level, and a lot of professional athletes go through a lot of pain and cause permanent damage to their bodies to play the game. But that doesn't mean those things help you win games more than being a great skater or skilled passer or top-notch sniper or so on. Players can find those attributes commendable, but it doesn't mean they win you games.

As far as opposition goes, players will also remember how tough it is to play against certain guys. Weber hits hard. Weber has a heavy shot. I'm absolutely sure that Toews and Kane and so on felt the punishment of those things when they were done playing Weber. But they won Cups in the era when Weber was in their division, and Subban's Preds swept them out of the playoffs this year. For anyone who's played the game, you know there are guys that you don't really look forward to playing against because of how physical or dirty they are, and you might certainly remember getting hit repeatedly and being covered in bruises or losing a tooth. But again, the end result is how that translates into game outcomes.

For a GM like Bergevin, he can't think about the game the way he did when he was a player. He can't think about who's the best teammate who takes the rookies out for steaks and drinks after the game. He can't think about who plays through pain and who throws the biggest hits. He has to focus on what makes the team win, and it's never been shown that character and grit and toughness win you games. Maybe they do to some degree (and I'm definitely not saying they're bad things to have), but the players whose grit and character translates into success will be able to measure that success in goals scored and team wins, not simply shot blocks and hits and motivational speeches. Bottom line for me is that 2016-2021 Subban and the things he does on the ice are more likely to yield team success than the things Weber does over that same time period.

 

[eldag]

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I'll say this:

A lot of players, particularly the ones in North America, are brought up in the Don Cherry culture of hockey, which is to say that playing through broken ribs and blocking shots and making big hits are looked on as commendable. And they are to a certain degree. It's physically grueling to play hockey at a high level, and a lot of professional athletes go through a lot of pain and cause permanent damage to their bodies to play the game. But that doesn't mean those things help you win games more than being a great skater or skilled passer or top-notch sniper or so on. Players can find those attributes commendable, but it doesn't mean they win you games.

As far as opposition goes, players will also remember how tough it is to play against certain guys. Weber hits hard. Weber has a heavy shot. I'm absolutely sure that Toews and Kane and so on felt the punishment of those things when they were done playing Weber. But they won Cups in the era when Weber was in their division, and Subban's Preds swept them out of the playoffs this year. For anyone who's played the game, you know there are guys that you don't really look forward to playing against because of how physical or dirty they are, and you might certainly remember getting hit repeatedly and being covered in bruises or losing a tooth. But again, the end result is how that translates into game outcomes.

For a GM like Bergevin, he can't think about the game the way he did when he was a player. He can't think about who's the best teammate who takes the rookies out for steaks and drinks after the game. He can't think about who plays through pain and who throws the biggest hits. He has to focus on what makes the team win, and it's never been shown that character and grit and toughness win you games. Maybe they do to some degree (and I'm definitely not saying they're bad things to have), but the players whose grit and character translates into success will be able to measure that success in goals scored and team wins, not simply shot blocks and hits and motivational speeches. Bottom line for me is that 2016-2021 Subban and the things he does on the ice are more likely to yield team success than the things Weber does over that same time period.

 

I agree with you that grit and character are good things to have but especially when combined with high skill levels of the true stars who have led their teams to victory. I think of the teams that have won the cup over the past say 10 years and then look who led them to greatness. In that time ... three teams won multiple cups..... Pittsburgh/Chicago/Los Angeles .... Names like Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Carter, Kopitar, Doughty, Brown, plus many others come to mind. Elite talents like Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Hossa/Keith/Carter/Doughty/Brown brought greater degrees of grit but mixed with elite talent that allowed them to beat you in many different ways plus carry themselves in leadership roles that almost transcended the game. Montreal does not have anyone at these elite levels of skill and leadership except you might argue for Carey, but goaltenders are a different animal and cannot lead or have the same impact as an elite goal scorer or even a defenceman. The teams mentioned above were championship caliber because they were built with a plan and developed with a focus and a commitment to winning. Interestingly, all had good goaltending but none had what might have been described as elite goaltending. Carey has elite goaltending skills ... no one can argue that BUT ... in 10 years he has not even made a Stanley Cup final and he turns 30 this month. He has an enormous contract that kicks in next year and ties him to the team for an additional 8 years. Shea Weber is now 32 and also has an enormous contract for similar term remaining .... this is the problem as I see it. There is no plan ... no focus ..... we have a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier players with varying levels of skill when thrown together can scrape into the playoffs some years then quickly they exit for early tee times while the contenders play on. This is what 5 years of Bergevin have brought  and trying to pry a John Tavares away from the Isles will not get this team over the hump let alone lesser talents like Nugent Hopkins or Duchene. We need a new management team with a plan and focus and commitment and with time to turn this thing around. Until we get that ... this team is going nowhere and especially so under the current GM.....

[maas_art]

57 minutes ago, eldag said:

Names like Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Carter, Kopitar, Doughty, Brown, plus many others come to mind. Elite talents like Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Hossa/Keith/Carter/Doughty/Brown brought greater degrees of grit but mixed with elite talent that allowed them to beat you in many different ways plus carry themselves in leadership roles that almost transcended the game. Montreal does not have anyone at these elite levels of skill and leadership except you might argue for Carey,

Pacioretty easily fits into that list.  Subban did too.   Had he been developed properly, Galcheyuk might be there too right now.   Those 4 building blocks were here when MB took over (Galchenyuk in the form of a 3rd OVA pick).   Now 1 is gone, 1 is under-developed and 2 are ageing.  

5 years has come and gone and we're not even as close as we were when MB started 

[Regis22]

10 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Pacioretty easily fits into that list.

Nah

Remember the World Cup when Torts  called him out . He never elevated his game to the next level

[maas_art]

Just now, Regis22 said:

Nah

Remember the World Cup when Torts  called him out . He never elevated his game to the next level

I will assume you are being facetious, but I know some people may buy the Torts quote.  Of course it doesnt work both ways.  You cant say "grit and character dont matter"   Any criticism of Pacioretty comes down to the same fluff arguments about "character" everyone disagrees with.  All you need to know:

Last 5 year in the nhl, most goals: 

1. Ovechkin :  219
2. Pavelski:  161
3. Crosby:  159
4. Kane: 159
5. Pacioretty: 156

Fifth in the entire league in goals scored over the last 5 years = elite.  Any arguments to the contrary are null and void. 

[Regis22]

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

I will assume you are being facetious,

Nope

Even ranked 13 th of all wingers

https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2017/8/15/16143390/max-pacioretty-top-twenty-wingers-nhl-carey-price-contract-done-ccm-tests-bauer-andrew-shaw-athletic

Even being 5th amongst goals scored in the last 5 yrs Im still not overwhelmed by him

[jeff33]

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

I will assume you are being facetious, but I know some people may buy the Torts quote.  Of course it doesnt work both ways.  You cant say "grit and character dont matter"   Any criticism of Pacioretty comes down to the same fluff arguments about "character" everyone disagrees with.  All you need to know:

Last 5 year in the nhl, most goals: 

1. Ovechkin :  219
2. Pavelski:  161
3. Crosby:  159
4. Kane: 159
5. Pacioretty: 156

Fifth in the entire league in goals scored over the last 5 years = elite.  Any arguments to the contrary are null and void. 

you think any of those teams would trade for patchy 1 for 1.  never in a million years. 

keep going down the list of elite players that patchy could fetch 1 for 1. its a long list. philly wouldnt do simmonds for him, and I dont blame them. Id rather have simmonds.

patchy is a great shooter and consistently gets his goals, and thats elite company hes in in that regard....but hes a 1 dimensional player and if hes the best we got we arent winning anything

[habs1952]

Patches is our Phil Kessel. 

[CaptWelly]

12 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Patches is our Phil Kessel. 

Really like Kessel kills penalties or is out there late in games because he's great defensively. Patches is good defensively and does kill penalties. He has also played injured and came back from severe  injuries very fast. The part about Torts who cares he doesn't talent at all anyway and is defiantly old school on toughness over talent. Remember Torts didn't want Chucky for that team also , the year after a 30 goal season. He wanted a tough team to win it all on team USA. Hoe did that work out? Of that above list Patches is up there in short handed and game winning goals also , which is when it counts. The actual team mates voted him in that should mean a lot. 

[jeff33]

12 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Patches is our Phil Kessel. 

exactly. 3rd or 4th best fwd on a real cup contending team. or best player on a bubble team going nowhere just like his time with the leafs.

the glimmer of hope however, is that chuck/drouin morph into our crosby/malkin.......inasmuch as they can to their degree of potential. i.e if they can both become consistent 80 pt players. and of course, as long as we don't trade chucky, which we probably will.

 

in other news, the preds just hired matt pfeffer.....who if you will recall is the analytics guy who lost his job by vehemently opposing the subban trade. hilarious.

 

[eldag]

13 hours ago, jeff33 said:

you think any of those teams would trade for patchy 1 for 1.  never in a million years. 

keep going down the list of elite players that patchy could fetch 1 for 1. its a long list. philly wouldnt do simmonds for him, and I dont blame them. Id rather have simmonds.

patchy is a great shooter and consistently gets his goals, and thats elite company hes in in that regard....but hes a 1 dimensional player and if hes the best we got we arent winning anything

Patches gets 60+ points in the regular season and 30+ goals consistently. That makes him a good player and top 6 on most teams. His playoff record in 39 games is 10 goals, 9 assists and a minus 1 ... definitely not elite nor a leader in that category. Last season disappeared in the playoffs and had one assist as team captain against the Rangers ...... 

[habs1952]

2 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

Really like Kessel kills penalties or is out there late in games because he's great defensively. Patches is good defensively and does kill penalties. He has also played injured and came back from severe  injuries very fast. The part about Torts who cares he doesn't talent at all anyway and is defiantly old school on toughness over talent. Remember Torts didn't want Chucky for that team also , the year after a 30 goal season. He wanted a tough team to win it all on team USA. Hoe did that work out? Of that above list Patches is up there in short handed and game winning goals also , which is when it counts. The actual team mates voted him in that should mean a lot. 

Patches kills penalties only because we don't have anyone else. 

[CANADIENS27]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 4:24 PM, habs_93 said:

Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of Bergevin not having "a commitment to winning", per se, it's his hideously outmoded view of the game that's the problem. I'm sure he thinks he's made wonderful moves. That's the problem.

And also the French media's contentment with mediocrity.  How soon do they finally call for his removal?  

 

 

[CaptWelly]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 10:50 AM, eldag said:

Patches gets 60+ points in the regular season and 30+ goals consistently. That makes him a good player and top 6 on most teams. His playoff record in 39 games is 10 goals, 9 assists and a minus 1 ... definitely not elite nor a leader in that category. Last season disappeared in the playoffs and had one assist as team captain against the Rangers ...... 

So if we judge by playoff standards than Price isn't elite either!

[maas_art]

28 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

So if we judge by playoff standards than Price isn't elite either!

 

 

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

So if we judge by playoff standards than Price isn't elite either!

You've just relegated a bunch of past elite NHL stars to mediocrity because they have never won the cup.

[jeff33]

I don't give max a hard time for his playoff. He did what he does, thats the nature of his game.  My real point is that he isn't the best player on a real cup contending team.

Honestly, I could happily part with pretty much every single core player on this roster. 

Our core:

1. Price.....our only true star player, but I would trade him 100% just to restock our pathetic prospect pool and get some offence. Having a goalie and nothing else isnt gonna win us squat.

2. Patchy.....already said what I think of him plenty of times. id trade him not only for similar reasons to price, but also before that sweetheart contract is up and he wants 8 million. and we give it to him.

3. Chuck...definitely got A level skills...shows flashes....still hasnt found his true groove in the NHL. seems to have a very hard time getting coaches trust. might be something to that....might also be that hes fed up with his situation here and might never really blossom for us. Id trade him for a fair return and not feel bad about it

4. Plek....like overnight it became a joke that hes considered part of our core. move on from him asap.

5. Gallagher.... very likeable player but as much as I like him I see a tiny guy who takes a beating and I think how long can you keep this up. Hes a skill player but not so skilled that he can lean on it, he has to fight for his points. also his hand is demolished. I personally feel like we have already seen the best we will ever see from him, and even if he just maintains this level , its not something we cant live without...40 ish points, big deal. its replaceable. again, if theres a good return out there...and i think there is...I take it.

6. Weber.....the 4 foot pass specialist. this is a trade ASAP. hes in obvious decline, and at current is not an elite level D imo. its gonna happen and its gonna snowball, and we are gonna have this big fat contract that we cant move and a player filling an extremely important role who should not be filling it. 

7. Alzner...? lol? I guess hes a core player on this team? oh my god

8. Petry. ok I like petry. So not everyone. 

After that its Drouin who for me is the one enticing piece we have, curious to see how he does, he might turn out to be legit. I was a fan since his WJC.......and then some decent kids like danault and lehkonen who I like but are not guys we are relying on as crucial pieces on a cup contending team.

this is for sure my least favourite edition of the habs in a very long time....maybe ever.  even when we had some poorer editions I found them lovable. Cristobal Huet and Zednik and guys like that. These guys.....I dunno.

Captain Invisible leading the popgun offence, Fugazi Mountain leading the defence in tandem with the baziillion dollar goalie.....I cant get behind this.  Character our way to 16 straight 1-0 victories for our 25th cup....its not even a facepalm, its the 2 handed face cradle.  I can't wait until we get serious again. 

 

 

[Regis22]

16 hours ago, jeff33 said:

I can't wait until we get serious again. 

Hans are 1` top C and 1 topD man away from being a contender

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, Regis22 said:

Hans are 1` top C and 1 topD man away from being a contender

We'll be creating holes to fill holes because of out drafting/development and trading of assets. 

[maas_art]

11 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

We'll be creating holes to fill holes because of out drafting/development and trading of assets. 

This is the real problem. If you could have added those 2 players without deducting any, i think we'd be fine but right now we're in trouble unless MB has a rabbit in his hat.   I have no doubt Galchenyuk could fetch us a #1LD, or a top 2 but that weakens us up front.   If MB can somehow pick up two top guys and give up one, we'd be ok, but im sceptical he can. 

[Regis22]

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 0:26 PM, habs1952 said:

We'll be creating holes to fill holes because of out drafting/development and trading of assets. 

I wasn't serious

What the Puck: Building Canadiens around Carey Price is a poor plan

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/montreal-canadiens/what-the-puck-building-canadiens-around-carey-price-is-a-poor-plan

The Canadiens were not among the dozen NHL teams that reached out to Will Butcher

https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2017/8/19/16168870/will-butcher-rumours-free-agent-canadiens-interest-carey-price-system-nikita-scherbak-maschmeyer

Why do that when you have so many D prospects in the system just ready to make the big club

[habs1952]

4 hours ago, Regis22 said:

 

The Canadiens were not among the dozen NHL teams that reached out to Will Butcher

https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2017/8/19/16168870/will-butcher-rumours-free-agent-canadiens-interest-carey-price-system-nikita-scherbak-maschmeyer

Why do that when you have so many D prospects in the system just ready to make the big club

[Regis22]

Not saying this Butcher kid would make and help the Habs but for a team  with little IMO D prospects it wouldn't hurt to at least reach out

https://awinninghabit.com/2017/08/20/montreal-canadiens-offer-will-butcher/

Montreal Canadiens: Possible Reasons Why A Pitch Hasn’t Been Made to Will Butcher Yet

Reasons For No Contact

There’s no denying the skill that Butcher has as a defenceman, however it’s possible that the Canadiens don’t believe he could duplicate that in the NHL. Another reason, and one that makes the most sense, is in regards to Jakub Jerabek.

Montreal signed the defenceman from the KHL this offseason, and his chances of making the team are pretty high. If Butcher is signed in faith that he will be guaranteed a roster spot, that could push Jerabek out. The 26-year-old could be considered the team’s own version of Butcher.

Finally, the organization could’ve got word around the league or from Butcher’s agent himself on the interest from other teams. The team list will be narrowed down to 3-4 pretty soon. However, that would be disappointing if that was the case. An organization should always try to add talent, and if Bergevin hasn’t reached out yet, then it’s possible he doesn’t see a fit for him on the Canadiens.

That being said there is still time for contact with Butcher. And even if they never do contact him, the Montreal Canadiens have enough talent on the blue-line to excel this season.

[jeff33]

^ guess we have nothing to worry about eh

the kool aid is delicious. also, ive been told its raining, and i believe it!