State of the Habs

[Regis22]

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

 but there just isn't anyone on the team I'd call a hero or an idol-type player right now.

MB

[Habs=stanleycup]

HIO Show supplement

Just as I suspected, MB is micromanaging this team with disastrous results.

[CANADIENS27]

19 hours ago, maas_art said:

While not mathematically eliminated yet, I think we all agree we wont be making the post season this year so...

 

In years four, five and six of Marc Bergevin's five-year-plan we will have played a total of ONE playoff series with a total of 2 games won.  

 

How can Molson possibly "still have full faith" in Bergevin? 

Especially since it's long since reached the point that general managers around have to hold a pillow over their mouths to keep from laughing into the phone when Bergevin calls wanting to discuss a trade.  

 

 

[CaptWelly]

3 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

HIO Show supplement

Just as I suspected, MB is micromanaging this team with disastrous results.

So now everyone believes Nilan knows everything? CJ has always wanted responsible 200' centers. So even without MB CJ probably still wouldn't put Chucky at center. He didn't use Seguin at center either. Nilan also says he's doesn't have "Hockey' sense for center. So do we believe both? Or neither? I'm not against trying him back at center, I'm just saying it's not CJ's style and I didn't think he'd keep him at center when he came to coach. CJ has always preferred responsible centers to offensive only centers. 

[Habs=stanleycup]

28 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

So now everyone believes Nilan knows everything? CJ has always wanted responsible 200' centers. So even without MB CJ probably still wouldn't put Chucky at center. He didn't use Seguin at center either. Nilan also says he's doesn't have "Hockey' sense for center. So do we believe both? Or neither? I'm not against trying him back at center, I'm just saying it's not CJ's style and I didn't think he'd keep him at center when he came to coach. CJ has always preferred responsible centers to offensive only centers. 

It's more than just Nilan who has mentioned this.

[archey]

Turning it around. We'll get past Florida and then Boston will throw the postponed game and we will miss the playoffs.

[Regis22]

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/stu-cowan-p-k-subban-gets-the-last-smile-in-win-over-canadiens

Well BG doesn't like PK,  and maybe AG and CP will get traded since they 're still friends with PK

 

[Windoe]

Montreal needed a captain.  PK lobbied hard with Madame Beliveau, in the media, with his incredible donation and he signed an 8 year contract.  PK was prepared to be a hab for life, and PK wanted to be the captain.  Those are all great things in my books.

However, it was clear to MB that PK wasn't well liked.  In the absence of a clear choice for captain, management turned the vote over to the players. 

The players OVERWHELMINGLY did not vote for PK.  It wasn't even close.  Things began to unravel and divisions deepened. 

MB now had a big talent, that was largely not popular in the room, on an 8 year deal, that wanted to be captain but was not elected captain.  He opted to unload PK while he could before July 1st. If you look at the trade in a vacuum, yes, we lost it.  But either PK, or the majority of the roster had to go.  Part of the appeal of Weber, at the time, was that he was available (if only it had been a center), that he would help heal and lead the room, and still be a decent talent in return.  

Unfortunately it came to what it came to, but big personalities have a way of getting old over the years. 

It was not a win now while we're in our window move.  I want to re-emphasize this.  MB did not think to himself, ok, we've got 3 years to win the Cup, and PK is just not quite there yet, so I'll trade him for a guy in his prime.  THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.  It was a get rid of the thorn while we can / a change of scenery will be good for everyone / PK will not be our leader move.

After tonight, I'm pretty sure I know that Gallagher didn't vote for PK, but regardless I already knew that he was from the only player not voting for PK.  Gallagher, the ultimate workhorse and team player, who takes a pounding night in and night out for us, is our guy.  We're lucky to have him, and we should support him.  I don't disagree with anything he said tonight, and in a lost season, I'm happy to see some push back.  

We aren't losing because we don't have PK.  We're losing because we don't have centers.  MB's failing is not the PK trade, its not getting us centers.  He sure as h-e-double-hockey-sticks better be getting us some before puck drop of the 2018-2019 season.  Even two #2 centers would be a huge boost.  

 

[CANADIENS27]

Last night they ran into good goaltending.  

 

 

[Habs=stanleycup]

As P.K. Subban was being interviewed outside the Nashville Predators’ locker room following Saturday night’s 3-2 shootout win over the Canadiens at the Bell Centre, his former teammates Carey Price and Alex Galchenyuk were standing in the background waiting to talk with him.

Not surprisingly, Brendan Gallagher wasn’t there.

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/stu-cowan-p-k-subban-gets-the-last-smile-in-win-over-canadiens

[jennifer_rocket]

10 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

As P.K. Subban was being interviewed outside the Nashville Predators’ locker room following Saturday night’s 3-2 shootout win over the Canadiens at the Bell Centre, his former teammates Carey Price and Alex Galchenyuk were standing in the background waiting to talk with him.

Not surprisingly, Brendan Gallagher wasn’t there.

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/stu-cowan-p-k-subban-gets-the-last-smile-in-win-over-canadiens

Gallagher's response to media inquiries about his battle with Subban was so petulant and childish. "Why are we talking about him?" "He was -1." "They have a lot of other good players." It just sounds sour and immature. 

If you cannot understand why the media might ask about Subban after his once-a-year return to Montreal, then you're dumb.

[Habs_Hockey_Nutz]

53 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Gallagher's response to media inquiries about his battle with Subban was so petulant and childish. "Why are we talking about him?" "He was -1." "They have a lot of other good players." It just sounds sour and immature. 

If you cannot understand why the media might ask about Subban after his once-a-year return to Montreal, then you're dumb.

This could be a player being taken out of context... no? I think Gallagher, being the good soldier, was simply echoing what CJ had said before the game. I ask why not make Peke Rinne the focus as he was the best player for both teams last night? "Why are we talking about him?" was a legitimate question in my opinion. And Gallagher had battles with others in any case. Media-smedia... they ask the dumbest questions too often if you ask me.

[Habs=stanleycup]

1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Gallagher's response to media inquiries about his battle with Subban was so petulant and childish. "Why are we talking about him?" "He was -1." "They have a lot of other good players." It just sounds sour and immature. 

If you cannot understand why the media might ask about Subban after his once-a-year return to Montreal, then you're dumb.

Interesting how this trade has continued to spark so much controversy.

It was the trade that should have never happened IMO, but now the reasons why it did happen are starting to reveal themselves.

What I resent so much as a fan is that the Habs have given us mostly crap games all season, then all of a sudden they played their best and most intense game I`ve witnessed, seemingly because of PK`s return. That`s disturbing.

[Regis22]

6 hours ago, Windoe said:

  

We aren't losing because we don't have PK.  We're losing because we don't have centers. 

 

We don't have any D either

[Regis22]

2 hours ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

 I ask why not make Peke Rinne the focus as he was the best player for both teams last night? "Why are we talking about him?" was a legitimate question in my opinion. And Gallagher had battles with others in any case. Media-smedia... they ask the dumbest questions too often if you ask me.

Probably because BG seemed to be going out of his was to get at PK

[BigTed3]

1. Yes, the media was prodding with questions about Subban. But they also asked questions about Koivu when he came back and Komisarek and Kovalev and so on. When good players go elsewhere and then come back to town, especially when it's only once a year, it's going to be a story. Gallagher may not like Subban but dealing with stories is part of your job.

2. Gallagher is allowed not to like Subban. I have no issue with two guys being different personality-wise and not getting along. But for BG to take cheapshots at Subban was unnecessary. To say "the Preds have two elite defencemen, Josi and Ekholm" is just childish... Subban is clearly at least as good and probably better than those two, so for BG to leave him off the list was clearly on purpose.

3. To state that PK made the story all about himself is also absurd. Yes, PK likes attention. Yes, he is cocky. But PK didn't really do anything to draw attention to himself during this trip except for his trip to the hospital, which if you're upset about, that's your own problem. I'm never going to fault a guy for giving his time and money to sick kids.

Gallagher needs to grow up. He's the one who was being immature. He's the one who was taking runs at PK all night before the interviews. So clearly, he also felt there was a story to tell regarding PK and the Habs. BG is a good player, but his comments and actions last night tell the story of a guy who's jealous and whiny and needs to do some growing up.

[H_T_L]

Once again (watched the interview this time) i didn't have much of a problem with Gally's remarks. He should have showed a bit more restraint but i can understand the frustration after losing a game they really felt they deserved to win. PK made a few (between the lines) remarks of his own when he pretty much inferred they wiped the smile off his face with the 2 points. All part of the game IMO.

He did take some runs at him, but i also saw PK roughing him up in front of the net whenever Gally went in there. Again,,,i don't see the issue with it.  You can start to see the frustration that comes with playing against PK and we've seen it from other teams when he was a Hab. He rubs teams the wrong way some times and i guess we're not immune from the effect.

CJ himself made a similar comment in his interview

"I thought we deserved better," said Montreal coach Claude Julien, who didn't want to talk about Subban. "The game plan was to get pucks behind their defencemen, it wasn't about P.K. Subban. Obviously the attention is on him because it always is, but it wasn't about an individual."

Pretty much echoing Gally's comments yet he didn't take any heat for it.

[BigTed3]

15 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Once again (watched the interview this time) i didn't have much of a problem with Gally's remarks. He should have showed a bit more restraint but i can understand the frustration after losing a game they really felt they deserved to win. PK made a few (between the lines) remarks of his own when he pretty much inferred they wiped the smile off his face with the 2 points. All part of the game IMO.

He did take some runs at him, but i also saw PK roughing him up in front of the net whenever Gally went in there. Again,,,i don't see the issue with it.  You can start to see the frustration that comes with playing against PK and we've seen it from other teams when he was a Hab. He rubs teams the wrong way some times and i guess we're not immune from the effect. CJ himself made a similar comment in his interview

"I thought we deserved better," said Montreal coach Claude Julien, who didn't want to talk about Subban. "The game plan was to get pucks behind their defencemen, it wasn't about P.K. Subban. Obviously the attention is on him because it always is, but it wasn't about an individual."

Pretty much echoing Gally's comments yet he didn't take any heat for it.

With CJ's remarks, again though, the funny thing is that by the Habs repeatedly saying it's not about PK, they are themselves making it about PK. They're drawing attention to him and they're deliberately trying to cast him in a negative light. I'd have had no problem with Gallagher simply saying he didn't want to talk about PK, end of story. I have little issue with Gallagher trying to get PK off his game. So I don't have that much of an issue with Julien's comments, to be honest. What bothered me about Gallagher's remarks were

1. Saying that everyone wanted to make it about PK, which he too was doing by the way he went out of his way to run him (i.e. a little hypocritical). If Gallagher didn't think PK was anything special, then why try to single him out to hit him all night long?

2. Saying PK was trying to make this game about himself (which may be his personality in general, but which he didn't do at all in my view last night)

3. Worst of all, putting Subban down by implying he wasn't as good as Josi or Ekholm or even in the same category as them. That's the part that's the most childish and which put it over the line. It would be like someone asking a player about Carey Price and the player saying "when I think about who could play goalie for Canada, I see Crawford and Fleury as being the two elite guys who have helped Canada have success and should be there next time." It would be a cheapshot against Carey, clearly something that's not true, and thus very petty.

[H_T_L]

2 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

With CJ's remarks, again though, the funny thing is that by the Habs repeatedly saying it's not about PK, they are themselves making it about PK. They're drawing attention to him and they're deliberately trying to cast him in a negative light. I'd have had no problem with Gallagher simply saying he didn't want to talk about PK, end of story. I have little issue with Gallagher trying to get PK off his game. So I don't have that much of an issue with Julien's comments, to be honest. What bothered me about Gallagher's remarks were

1. Saying that everyone wanted to make it about PK, which he too was doing by the way he went out of his way to run him (i.e. a little hypocritical)

2. Saying PK was trying to make this game about himself (which may be his personality in general, but which he didn't do at all in my view last night)

3. Worst of all, putting Subban down by implying he wasn't as good as Josi or Ekholm or even in the same category as them. That's the part that's the most childish and which put it over the line. It would be like someone asking a player about Carey Price and the player saying "when I think about who could play goalie for Canada, I see Crawford and Fleury as being the two elite guys who have helped Canada have success and should be there next time." It would be a cheapshot against Carey, clearly something that's not true, and thus very petty.

It's all fair points Ted. I myself just didn't read into it that deep. I've always been a big PK fan but i can see how he can rub people the other way. Some would call it jealousy but things like that don't get to me. I've worked with athletes for decades and found it difficult to handle that aspect of sports in the past.  I guess you could say i've mellowed with age. Now i just tell them to get a life. 

[maas_art]

7 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Gallagher's response to media inquiries about his battle with Subban was so petulant and childish. "Why are we talking about him?" "He was -1." "They have a lot of other good players." It just sounds sour and immature. 

Yeah, the -1 thing is what stood out to me.  You can say you werent paying attention to a guy or whatever but when you took the time to look at his box score line?  That means you're paying more attention than you want to admit. 

 

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

To state that PK made the story all about himself is also absurd. Yes, PK likes attention. Yes, he is cocky. But PK didn't really do anything to draw attention to himself during this trip except for his trip to the hospital, which if you're upset about, that's your own problem. I'm never going to fault a guy for giving his time and money to sick kidss

Yup.  This pretty much feeds into the "why was Pk traded thing though."  Interestingly, i think most of us thought that it was PK vs Pacioretty but it seems more and more like PK vs the Gallagher camp was more accurate. 

10 hours ago, Windoe said:

Montreal needed a captain.  PK lobbied hard with Madame Beliveau, in the media, with his incredible donation and he signed an 8 year contract.  PK was prepared to be a hab for life, and PK wanted to be the captain.  Those are all great things in my books.

However, it was clear to MB that PK wasn't well liked.  In the absence of a clear choice for captain, management turned the vote over to the players. 

The players OVERWHELMINGLY did not vote for PK.  It wasn't even close.  Things began to unravel and divisions deepened. 

Totally buy all of that.  Watching behind the scenes footage of 24CH you saw that lots of guys were annoyed with or didnt seem to like PK.   Gionta frequently called him immature, Plekanec and Pacioretty seemed annoyed with him at times, obviously guys like Gallagher didnt like him. 

And if MB truly felt this could become a problem down the line - FINE - but you cannot trade him for an declining player 1 for 1!!   I mean even if it had been Weber + Trevin or Weber + 1st it would have been better.  Deals from Vancouver and Edmonton seemed way better at the time and in hindsight were tons better.

So my problem isnt so much that we traded PK (Even though I really liked him). I get that sometimes guys arent the right fit and maybe the management and coaching staff just felt like things would get worse from there. Who knows.  The problem I have is that if you trade an elite #1 defensman, you HAVE TO get back players who are as good if not better.  We traded him for 75¢ on the dollar. 

[jeff33]

Well, we can see why he was traded.

What a distraction! I mean,if he were still here we would probably be a bottom 5 team or something. 

Good luck in Nashville! I mean, what place are those losers in. must be a lottery team. 

 

[BigTed3]

3 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Yeah, the -1 thing is what stood out to me.  You can say you werent paying attention to a guy or whatever but when you took the time to look at his box score line?  That means you're paying more attention than you want to admit. 

 

Yup.  This pretty much feeds into the "why was Pk traded thing though."  Interestingly, i think most of us thought that it was PK vs Pacioretty but it seems more and more like PK vs the Gallagher camp was more accurate. 

Totally buy all of that.  Watching behind the scenes footage of 24CH you saw that lots of guys were annoyed with or didnt seem to like PK.   Gionta frequently called him immature, Plekanec and Pacioretty seemed annoyed with him at times, obviously guys like Gallagher didnt like him. 

And if MB truly felt this could become a problem down the line - FINE - but you cannot trade him for an declining player 1 for 1!!   I mean even if it had been Weber + Trevin or Weber + 1st it would have been better.  Deals from Vancouver and Edmonton seemed way better at the time and in hindsight were tons better.

So my problem isnt so much that we traded PK (Even though I really liked him). I get that sometimes guys arent the right fit and maybe the management and coaching staff just felt like things would get worse from there. Who knows.  The problem I have is that if you trade an elite #1 defensman, you HAVE TO get back players who are as good if not better.  We traded him for 75¢ on the dollar. 

I don't think there's such a thing as an untouchable player. Take McDavid, who's probably the best player in the league right now. If Montreal offered Price, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Drouin, Mete, and a 1st rounder, Edmonton would be stupid not to take that deal.

That being said, I think Subban should have been as close to an untouchable as you get on the team. He was the perfect age to match the core of the rest of the team (Price, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Petry, etc.). He was a guy who could take over games and was signed to a long-term deal. He had already won a Norris. He grew up a Habs fan and wanted to be here. And he could not only handle the Montreal media but own it. Even if you find a comparable talent, it'd have been hard to find a guy who matched everything else he did.

Now if the Oilers had offered us Draisaitl, RNH, Nurse, and a 1st (which wasn't out of the realm of possibilities at the time), then maybe you take it. But it would have had to be a heck of a deal to convince me to give up a top 3 D man in the league like Subban. That's just really hard to replace. So as you said, to come out with only Weber, who was older, slower, and declining, it just doesn't make any sense. It says the Habs did everything they could to get rid of Subban and were so eager to do so that they didn't do their homework and didn't get fair market value.

[jeff33]

As for him and gally going at it....awesome. even the barbs afterwards...great stuff.

where gally really lost it was saying they have 2 elite d, ekholm and josi....like brendan.....he has more points than you and everyone else on your team. and his team for that matter. and hes 3rd in points and 1st in goals in the whole league,  he may very likely win a norris, has won one already.has been to a cup. may very well get there this year again, and maybe even win

until you are more than a 20 goal scorer on a lottery team who is never going to come close to winning an indiviual award, maybe you should shut up.

just like how roy couldnt hear roenick with his cup  rings in his ears.  just dont start these kind of games with players in a different universe than you

[habs1952]

Seems like PK was effective in throwing Gally off his game and not the other way around.

[Windoe]

That's about as close to any playoff banter as we're going to get this year, so enjoy it!

I think most people can now see the choices were: Its PK's team and if you don't like that you can be moved, OR PK's gotta go.  That's the first choice MB had to make.  Second choice was trade him for what?  Weber only got us back 75 cents on the dollar like maas_art says.  

But that's PK.  He puts you in a tough situation.  He makes you choose.  He divides.  And it only gets worse over time.  The clock is ticking in Nashville, they better get it done while he's shiny and fun, and they better start moving out his adversaries as they develop over time.  To BG's point, the table was set in Nashville well before PK showed up.      

Where we are now: The room is stabilized, but they don't have the required centers and defense they need to win. You can only squeeze so much energy out of a poorly designed team for so long.  NHL teams require centers, and we need to get two of them yesterday.