2018 - Does Marc Bergevin make it to next season

[HabsAlways]

We're only hours away from 2018 ...  the Habs are 3 games below 500 and 10pts out of a playoff spot.    There's probably little to no hope they make the playoffs.

[jeff33]

I think the fact that we have that 9 mill in cap space combined with the cap going up will give our clueless foxhole owner a good excuse to give him one more offseason. And I think there is a very solid chance of that happening.

In any sane world MB has to be gone 100%. adjusting for what goes on in hab universe, I think that translates to 40%, and could gust as high as 60 depending how badly we finish when its all said and done.

If we have any sort of late run , or finish 10th or 9th but only by a small or even relatively small margin, MB is coming back. Thats my feeling. 

If we bomb out like we did a few years ago and finish 3rd last or whatever, I think it forces Molson's hand.

At the end of the day, understand that molson is a.....im not sure how vanilla a word I have to use on this forum. He isnt a smart person in my opinion. It seems to me that he listens to MB's nonsense and actually believes it.  Thats what I think. I think he would prefer to give Marc another chance, so all he needs is an excuse, and then we could be the first organization to hold TWO!!! press conferences to explain why we are NOT firing a person,  because it is so obvious that they SHOULD be fired, that it requires an  apologetics session. 

[BigTed3]

The media pundits all think Bergevin's job is safe for now, and I also don't see a change in season. But we're going to miss the playoffs, and 6 years into Bergevin's regime, this is probably the worst situation the franchise has been in since he arrived. He's made a ton of mistakes in judgment. I just don't see how any reasonable owner could allow him to continue. Which begs the question of how rational GM will be, but I think Bergevin will be fired after the season's end.

[Regis22]

27 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

If we have any sort of late run , or finish 10th or 9th but only by a small or even relatively small margin, MB is coming back. Thats my feeling. 

That's not going to happen and if it did you would still need the  six teams ahead of they to start losing more games .

[habs1952]

LOLOLOLOLOL at #3. You can't teach an old NHL dog how the new NHL works. I went with #5 because it's obvious Molson doesn't have the cajones to fire him now.

[HabsAlways]

2 hours ago, habs1952 said:

LOLOLOLOLOL at #3. You can't teach an old NHL dog how the new NHL works. I went with #5 because it's obvious Molson doesn't have the cajones to fire him now.

lol my last three are all sarcastic ... 

 

4 hours ago, jeff33 said:

I think the fact that we have that 9 mill in cap space combined with the cap going up will give our clueless foxhole owner a good excuse to give him one more offseason. And I think there is a very solid chance of that happening.

 

Yup thats exactly my fear.      That somehow MB has convinced Molson he's going to sign Tavares or some nonsense and we're stuck with him till late into next season.

Even if somehow he miraculously signs Tavares ... LOL ...  the rest of the team is such a mess that even Jesus himself deciding to suit up won't make a difference.

[tony5775]

I would agree he should be canned now.  But it would make sense to let him go at seasons end. Just control what he does at the trade deadline.

Not upset about Weber as he is an elite defenseman.

Getting Drouin was not what i wanted. but then again I understand that decision. Sergachev was something I was really looking forward too.

Its three things that bother me. Hiring Claude Julien who even thou everyone here will disagree was not a better option then MT for this team. At least MT was able to adjust to what was goin on and get this team going on most occasions.

But the worse thing is taking on Alsner and believing he would be able to take Markov,s spot on the team.

The treatment of Markov who has the CH tattoo I am sure some where on him, was just very upsetting for myself. We could so use his puck handling skills and leadership right now,  Maybe Julien and his not liking Russian players had something to do with this as well. Markov will alwys be one of my favorite Habs all time.

[jeff33]

9 minutes ago, tony5775 said:

I would agree he should be canned now.  But it would make sense to let him go at seasons end. Just control what he does at the trade deadline.

Not upset about Weber as he is an elite defenseman.

Getting Drouin was not what i wanted. but then again I understand that decision. Sergachev was something I was really looking forward too.

Its three things that bother me. Hiring Claude Julien who even thou everyone here will disagree was not a better option then MT for this team. At least MT was able to adjust to what was goin on and get this team going on most occasions.

But the worse thing is taking on Alsner and believing he would be able to take Markov,s spot on the team.

The treatment of Markov who has the CH tattoo I am sure some where on him, was just very upsetting for myself. We could so use his puck handling skills and leadership right now,  Maybe Julien and his not liking Russian players had something to do with this as well. Markov will alwys be one of my favorite Habs all time.

not being able to re-sign markov may have been ok in a certain context but based on what marky said about it ......froma guy who is an all time hab.....absolutely grounds for an unceremonious boot out the door. disgraceful

[ChiLla]

4 hours ago, jeff33 said:

not being able to re-sign markov may have been ok in a certain context but based on what marky said about it ......froma guy who is an all time hab.....absolutely grounds for an unceremonious boot out the door. disgraceful

Just imagine it was a Quebec-born player we're talking about...

Not sure who else is involved in these decisions but that's not how you run a franchise (or any business really).

[Habs=stanleycup]

18 hours ago, jeff33 said:

I think the fact that we have that 9 mill in cap space combined with the cap going up will give our clueless foxhole owner a good excuse to give him one more offseason. And I think there is a very solid chance of that happening.

In any sane world MB has to be gone 100%. adjusting for what goes on in hab universe, I think that translates to 40%, and could gust as high as 60 depending how badly we finish when its all said and done.

If we have any sort of late run , or finish 10th or 9th but only by a small or even relatively small margin, MB is coming back. Thats my feeling. 

If we bomb out like we did a few years ago and finish 3rd last or whatever, I think it forces Molson's hand.

At the end of the day, understand that molson is a.....im not sure how vanilla a word I have to use on this forum. He isnt a smart person in my opinion. It seems to me that he listens to MB's nonsense and actually believes it.  Thats what I think. I think he would prefer to give Marc another chance, so all he needs is an excuse, and then we could be the first organization to hold TWO!!! press conferences to explain why we are NOT firing a person,  because it is so obvious that they SHOULD be fired, that it requires an  apologetics session. 

Unfortunately I think you hit it bang on jeff. Mr. Molson seems to be mesmerized by MB. He will never fire him IMO because he has no hockey sense or any proper understanding of today's NHL. He relies on him too heavily.

We are stuck with what we have until we get a new owner who will sanction a total rebuild starting by gutting its own management, instilling the philosophy of making the Stanley Cup our number ONE priority, minus the French politics and the contempt for the fan-base.

[eldag]

42 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Unfortunately I think you hit it bang on jeff. Mr. Molson seems to be mesmerized by MB. He will never fire him IMO because he has no hockey sense or any proper understanding of today's NHL. He relies on him too heavily.

We are stuck with what we have until we get a new owner who will sanction a total rebuild starting by gutting its own management, instilling the philosophy of making the Stanley Cup our number ONE priority, minus the French politics and the contempt for the fan-base.

[PuckPundit]

Incidentally, the last time the GM and the coach were fired after another, the Habs finished 3rd last overall. That's where this team is projected to end up.

But they were Anglophones. So different standards this time, eh? 

Besides, Molson doesn't want to feel ripped off paying salaries for nothing AGAIN. I believe after the language controversy last time round, Molson has washed his hands off and just wants to concentrate on milking the franchise IN PEACE.

 

 

 

[jennifer_rocket]

A couple of reasons why I feel MB should be canned:

• Failure to sign, trade for, draft, or develop a top line center.
• Time wasted on MT as head coach.
• Failure to extend Andrei Markov and have no plan to replace his production and skill set.
• Failure to put together an effective coaching staff for the farm team.
• Trading P.K. Subban for Shea Weber.
• Signing Karl Alzner.
• Failure to address our defensive needs and being incredibly poor at assessing the D's abilities.
• Constantly acquiring bottom-six players preventing younger players from NHL minutes.

[kinot-2]

13 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

A couple of reasons why I feel MB should be canned:

• Failure to sign, trade for, draft, or develop a top line center.
• Time wasted on MT as head coach.
• Failure to extend Andrei Markov and have no plan to replace his production and skill set.
• Failure to put together an effective coaching staff for the farm team.
• Trading P.K. Subban for Shea Weber.
• Signing Karl Alzner.
• Failure to address our defensive needs and being incredibly poor at assessing the D's abilities.
• Constantly acquiring bottom-six players preventing younger players from NHL minutes.

All of the above, plus shipping Eller out.

Trading for Shaw.

 

[maas_art]

I think its highly unlikely he is relieved in-season. Its not the way this current ownership group works and I would be very very surprised if it happens.  The other thing is: who is taking over?  Dudley as interim?  Timmins?   I dont see us having a long-term replacement in house and the most likely candidate is Julien Brisebois who the TB lightning have clearly said will not be given permission to talk to other teams during the season. Add those up and I think MB's job is safe until spring.

That said, I do not see any way we miss the playoffs in year 6 of his tenure and he keeps his job.  I think if we miss the post season, he is fired.   The thing is, our division is so bad that there's still a chance we make the playoffs.  Increasingly slim but still a chance.   If MB trades Pacioretty tomorrow for a couple of young pieces (top 2 centre and top 4 LD) and Weber comes back healthy, can we sneak in?  Maybe.  That clounds MB's future a lot. Can he smooth-talk Molson into believing we're better than we are?  Dunno.

So obviously my vote is to get rid of him asap but I  think the team will wait till summer.   Thats probably the best we can hope for and hope that in the meantime, while he's still in power,  he doesnt trade youth for experience, skill for grit  etc. 

[Manatee-X]

I think he's gone as soon as this season's over.  I totally get why a lot of people think that he'll still be here (foxholes and all that) but I think we've reached a tipping point now.

Maybe I'm just not cynical enough, but Geoff Molson doesn't strike me as someone who's just in this to make money and sell tickets.  My impression is that he honestly does want to win.  He's not necessarily a brilliant hockey mind, but then that's not really his job - he hired the person who he thought would do the best job and then largely stayed out of the way.  In my opinion that's actually a pretty good strategy for an owner to follow... it's just unfortunate that he hired the wrong person.

Going back years and years now, analytics-minded people have been complaining about a lot of what Bergevin has been doing.  But back then the team was winning (even if it was on the back of Price) and as an owner there was really no reason to listen to people talking statistics over your own professional general manager (who, again, was winning).  When things did take a turn for the worse, well, there was Bergevin's excuse that the star goalie was hurt.  And, again, to someone like Molson who might not know a lot of the ins-and-outs of hockey that sounds like a pretty credible excuse.

Then when we got Price back and still lost a bunch of games, I'd say 90% of the media criticism was directed at Michel Therrien (and yeah, he deserved it).  What criticism of Bergevin there was in the mainstream media was mostly about his refusal to fire the coach.  But then he did fire the Therrien, then replaced him with someone that I'd say the vast majority of fans/media were happy with.  So even though we weren't great last year, most of the criticism was still on Therrien and not Bergevin himself.

This season, though, most of the articles have been about how bad the team's composition is or how bad a job Bergevin has personally done.  With that much public sentiment turned against him (and with a losing team) it's going to be hard for an owner to look at him and say "yeah, that's still the guy I want running things"

[maas_art]

35 minutes ago, Manatee-X said:

I think he's gone as soon as this season's over.  I totally get why a lot of people think that he'll still be here (foxholes and all that) but I think we've reached a tipping point now.

Maybe I'm just not cynical enough, but Geoff Molson doesn't strike me as someone who's just in this to make money and sell tickets.  My impression is that he honestly does want to win.  He's not necessarily a brilliant hockey mind, but then that's not really his job - he hired the person who he thought would do the best job and then largely stayed out of the way.  In my opinion that's actually a pretty good strategy for an owner to follow... it's just unfortunate that he hired the wrong person.

Going back years and years now, analytics-minded people have been complaining about a lot of what Bergevin has been doing.  But back then the team was winning (even if it was on the back of Price) and as an owner there was really no reason to listen to people talking statistics over your own professional general manager (who, again, was winning).  When things did take a turn for the worse, well, there was Bergevin's excuse that the star goalie was hurt.  And, again, to someone like Molson who might not know a lot of the ins-and-outs of hockey that sounds like a pretty credible excuse.

Then when we got Price back and still lost a bunch of games, I'd say 90% of the media criticism was directed at Michel Therrien (and yeah, he deserved it).  What criticism of Bergevin there was in the mainstream media was mostly about his refusal to fire the coach.  But then he did fire the Therrien, then replaced him with someone that I'd say the vast majority of fans/media were happy with.  So even though we weren't great last year, most of the criticism was still on Therrien and not Bergevin himself.

This season, though, most of the articles have been about how bad the team's composition is or how bad a job Bergevin has personally done.  With that much public sentiment turned against him (and with a losing team) it's going to be hard for an owner to look at him and say "yeah, that's still the guy I want running things"

I agree.   having said that, what happens with my 'worst case scenario"  where we make a move (dump Patches for a couple of players, LD and C) and actually start winning some games.  Not a lot, but enough to get us into the playoffs since we're in like the worst division ever.   Maybe we win a round.   Does MB still escape the axe or can he smooth-talk his way out of it?  

[BigTed3]

40 minutes ago, Manatee-X said:

I think he's gone as soon as this season's over.  I totally get why a lot of people think that he'll still be here (foxholes and all that) but I think we've reached a tipping point now.

Maybe I'm just not cynical enough, but Geoff Molson doesn't strike me as someone who's just in this to make money and sell tickets.  My impression is that he honestly does want to win.  He's not necessarily a brilliant hockey mind, but then that's not really his job - he hired the person who he thought would do the best job and then largely stayed out of the way.  In my opinion that's actually a pretty good strategy for an owner to follow... it's just unfortunate that he hired the wrong person.

Going back years and years now, analytics-minded people have been complaining about a lot of what Bergevin has been doing.  But back then the team was winning (even if it was on the back of Price) and as an owner there was really no reason to listen to people talking statistics over your own professional general manager (who, again, was winning).  When things did take a turn for the worse, well, there was Bergevin's excuse that the star goalie was hurt.  And, again, to someone like Molson who might not know a lot of the ins-and-outs of hockey that sounds like a pretty credible excuse.

Then when we got Price back and still lost a bunch of games, I'd say 90% of the media criticism was directed at Michel Therrien (and yeah, he deserved it).  What criticism of Bergevin there was in the mainstream media was mostly about his refusal to fire the coach.  But then he did fire the Therrien, then replaced him with someone that I'd say the vast majority of fans/media were happy with.  So even though we weren't great last year, most of the criticism was still on Therrien and not Bergevin himself.

This season, though, most of the articles have been about how bad the team's composition is or how bad a job Bergevin has personally done.  With that much public sentiment turned against him (and with a losing team) it's going to be hard for an owner to look at him and say "yeah, that's still the guy I want running things"

Bergevin had a few good moves in the past... ditching Cole's contract, the Vanek trade, the Petry acquisition, etc. but each time he's made a key trade, he's made just as many errors or bad decisions. His emphasis on grit and filling his line-up with pluggers is a failure. And yes, he's found a few good pluggers (Mitchell, Byron, Benn, etc.) but when you go through 20-30 of them, you're going to have a couple perform well for short periods of time. Overall, there's been a reluctance to adjust to today's NHL, to accept skill players, and fire his friends who are under-performing as coaches. Pro scouting has been brutal, player development has been atrocious, and drafting has been questionable more often than not. Those things have gone on Bergevin's entire regimen, but they've been covered up by winning streaks (thanks to Price) and an occasional decent trade. But all in all, Bergevin has completely failed to address the team's real needs, and while the Drouin for Sergachev trade was fine in isolation, it doesn't make sense without another move adjoined to it, because he dealt his best asset without addressing a key need (1C or top pairing D man).

So what's changed this year compared to past year? Well for one, Bergevin's now in Year 6 of his 5-year plan and the team seems farther than ever from a Cup. He's wasted his core's prime years. And he's sitting on unused cap space, a ton of it, while his team languishes. He allowed personal grievances to dictate moves like the Kassian and Subban deals and the Galchenyuk handling. And he has been heavily criticized by the media and to some degree by under-the-breathe comments from his own players about his handling of Markov and Radulov's contract negotiations. Most of his recent acquisitions (King, Ott, Martinsen, Nesterov, Benn, Froese, eslauriers, Schlemko, Streit, Morrow, Alzner, etc.) have been failures or largely unimportant pieces of the puzzle. And of course, the team has struggled mightily this year in ways that everyone else predicted they would. So if common fans can say "don't go after Alzner, there's nothing there" and "the defence is slow and can't move the puck, which will hurt offensive production" and "this team is dead in the water if Carey doesn't play like an All-Star" and so on and be right, while Bergevin goes off about how hard his job is and what a great job he did to build such a fantastic defence and be wrong about all of it, and if he can do all of that while maintaining an air of arrogance and condescension about all of it, well then he deserves to be shown the door.

[Manatee-X]

43 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I agree.   having said that, what happens with my 'worst case scenario"  where we make a move (dump Patches for a couple of players, LD and C) and actually start winning some games.  Not a lot, but enough to get us into the playoffs since we're in like the worst division ever.   Maybe we win a round.   Does MB still escape the axe or can he smooth-talk his way out of it?  

I really don't see them making the playoffs.  So I guess I said I'm not cynical, but maybe I am pessimistic?  To answer your question, though, I think that in this case (as Ted said, year 6 of the 5-year-plan) it would also matter how far we go in the playoffs. 

If we get in because of our weak division and then lose in the first round then I think he's still gone - the pressure building against him is too great right now, and there have been way too many busts in his most recent moves.  Again going back to what Ted said, the problems that we're having are exactly problems that his critics predicted before the season started.  If we're this far into Bergevin's tenure and still don't seem any closer to winning then I don't think they'll keep him around.

If we make it to the conference finals or the stanley cup finals (or, dare I even mention it, win the cup) then I think he stays.  I can't imagine that any GM would be fired after his team was one of the four "best" in the league.

For me the line is blurred if we lose out in round two, and here I'd say it depends on how we lost.  If Weber is phenomenal and Alzner and the rest of the 'D' play well and we score a reasonable amount but still lose then I think he will probably stick around.  If, however, we're plagued by the same problems that we've been seeing all season (those same problems that everyone predicted) then it'll go the other way.

[Habs=stanleycup]

39 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Bergevin had a few good moves in the past... ditching Cole's contract, the Vanek trade, the Petry acquisition, etc. but each time he's made a key trade, he's made just as many errors or bad decisions. His emphasis on grit and filling his line-up with pluggers is a failure. And yes, he's found a few good pluggers (Mitchell, Byron, Benn, etc.) but when you go through 20-30 of them, you're going to have a couple perform well for short periods of time. Overall, there's been a reluctance to adjust to today's NHL, to accept skill players, and fire his friends who are under-performing as coaches. Pro scouting has been brutal, player development has been atrocious, and drafting has been questionable more often than not. Those things have gone on Bergevin's entire regimen, but they've been covered up by winning streaks (thanks to Price) and an occasional decent trade. But all in all, Bergevin has completely failed to address the team's real needs, and while the Drouin for Sergachev trade was fine in isolation, it doesn't make sense without another move adjoined to it, because he dealt his best asset without addressing a key need (1C or top pairing D man).

So what's changed this year compared to past year? Well for one, Bergevin's now in Year 6 of his 5-year plan and the team seems farther than ever from a Cup. He's wasted his core's prime years. And he's sitting on unused cap space, a ton of it, while his team languishes. He allowed personal grievances to dictate moves like the Kassian and Subban deals and the Galchenyuk handling. And he has been heavily criticized by the media and to some degree by under-the-breathe comments from his own players about his handling of Markov and Radulov's contract negotiations. Most of his recent acquisitions (King, Ott, Martinsen, Nesterov, Benn, Froese, eslauriers, Schlemko, Streit, Morrow, Alzner, etc.) have been failures or largely unimportant pieces of the puzzle. And of course, the team has struggled mightily this year in ways that everyone else predicted they would. So if common fans can say "don't go after Alzner, there's nothing there" and "the defence is slow and can't move the puck, which will hurt offensive production" and "this team is dead in the water if Carey doesn't play like an All-Star" and so on and be right, while Bergevin goes off about how hard his job is and what a great job he did to build such a fantastic defence and be wrong about all of it, and if he can do all of that while maintaining an air of arrogance and condescension about all of it, well then he deserves to be shown the door.

We all know that MB 'deserves' to be shown the door, but the question is will it happen this season? I think not due to the Molson factor.

[ramcharger440]

At this point i would prefer he not make it to the end of the day!

[maas_art]

1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

At this point i would prefer he not make it to the end of the day!

As I noted above, i think its highly unlikely they can him during the regular season (especially since i think their #1 choice for replacement is untouchable until then)  - but - you have to figure at some point they will fired him, mid-season, if the hole gets deep enough.  Like, lets say we lost the next 10 straight.  Would that be enough?   Dunno.  will be interesting to see how things play out going forward. 

[Regis22]

7 hours ago, maas_art said:

That said, I do not see any way we miss the playoffs in year 6 of his tenure and he keeps his job.  I think if we miss the post season, he is fired.   The thing is, our division is so bad that there's still a chance we make the playoffs.  Increasingly slim but still a chance.

Mathematically Yes

Realistically Not a chance. They are not going to catch Boston or Toronto or leapfrog six teams into a wildcard spot

There is a better chance that Montreal ends up just ahead of Arizona and Buffalo , that's how bad this year's team is .

[Regis22]

6 hours ago, maas_art said:

I agree.   having said that, what happens with my 'worst case scenario"  where we make a move (dump Patches for a couple of players, LD and C) and actually start winning some games.  Not a lot, but enough to get us into the playoffs since we're in like the worst division ever.   Maybe we win a round.   Does MB still escape the axe or can he smooth-talk his way out of it?  

2 guys coming back in a trade  enough to help this team . They are too far in a hole . If it was that easy then Buffalo has a shot too and they stink as well

[habs1952]

3 hours ago, maas_art said:

As I noted above, i think its highly unlikely they can him during the regular season (especially since i think their #1 choice for replacement is untouchable until then)  - but - you have to figure at some point they will fired him, mid-season, if the hole gets deep enough.  Like, lets say we lost the next 10 straight.  Would that be enough?   Dunno.  will be interesting to see how things play out going forward. 

They gotta can MB before he does anymore damage, if more damage can even be done.