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12 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Im happy to have thoughtful discussions with you but when you make ridiculously condescending remarks like this, dont expect many to have any interest in your opinions. 

What should I say?

Bergevin and Therrien abused Subban because every time he made a mistake they said see I told you so. They ignored the statistical data that proved otherwise.

Now we have a reverse situation, and everybody is seeing the things that Galchenyk does extremely well but willing to ignore the statistical data that says otherwise.

Without meaning to be condescending, Don't judge my comments by what you think they may be. The only course you can take is to have an open mind, remove the blinders for a couple of hours and g to www.corsica.hockey go to skater stats, Filter habs (montreal) forwards, choose this year last year, the last three yeas it doesn't matter he will be in the bottom group of the forwards in most categories. I will leave it at that and apologize if this offends you.

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45 minutes ago, Ravadak said:

 

I am not sure why you follow me around.

But  why don’t you put forward what you propose, present me with some actual data, because you mention 4th line minutes, why don’t you give me a % of his fourth line minutes compared to his other minutes….

Don't just use the same thing everyone else say, its his linemates, its  bcause he doesn't play center, its because he played on the fourth line the coaches don't like him,

As I mentioned earlier take off the blinders, take a deep breath go to www.corsica.hockey go to skater stats, Filter habs (montreal) forwards, choose this year last year, the last three yeas it doesn't matter he will be in the bottom group of the forwards in most categories. IT's not bad luck, its not his linemates , its not his coaches, its not the cosmic rays, its galchenyk

if you consider me responding to your posts fallowing you around, than maybe you shouldn't be posting in forums, this is not a safe space zone, you will hear things that will upset you, not everyone has your view, i for one love AG when he played center on the 1st line, he was lighting it up, since then they have demoted him and punished him on every occasion, but that's just the way i see it, how was his corsi last year and the year before that, show me when they had him at center on the 1st line his corsi for that

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14 hours ago, Ravadak said:

Don't just use the same thing everyone else say, its his linemates, its  bcause he doesn't play center, its because he played on the fourth line the coaches don't like him,

As I mentioned earlier take off the blinders, take a deep breath go to www.corsica.hockey go to skater stats, Filter habs (montreal) forwards, choose this year last year, the last three yeas it doesn't matter he will be in the bottom group of the forwards in most categories. IT's not bad luck, its not his linemates , its not his coaches, its not the cosmic rays, its galchenyk

 

I think many here would say the same about your opinions .... take off the blinders that are causing you to so undervalue an offensive asset.   Through out history there have been offensively gifted players with defensive liabilities.    Last I checked AG was leading our team in points.    Without the proper supporting cast around him, sure it could be argued his defensive lapses hurt more than his offensive upside.

But on a good team, with proper linemates and a good defensive core .. he is exactly the kind of player you want in your lineup to produce offence.    

It simply seems you're biased despite the numerous arguments, facts and observations everyone else makes.     The bottom line is this team is poorly constructed and the offensive talents of AG are completely overshadowed by improper use, poor linemates, irregular playing time, poor team constructions etc etc .... unless we're talking about players like Lemieux, Gretzky, or Orr success doesnt come in isolation.    It's still a team game and a players strengths and weaknesses are only a piece of the puzzle in their success.

Your argument against him always boils down to "he's on the ice for more goals against than for" ... and looking down the list that can be said for almost everyone on the habs roster this year.  

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If I was Alex I would consider asking for a trade. I'm not sure why he would want to stay here when he could go to an organization with better management, receive some defensive leniency and the ability to play center, make more money (less taxes), and not have to deal with the annoying Canadian media.

This organization needs to begin considering how it is brutally alienating to talented individuals.

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4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

If I was Alex I would consider asking for a trade. I'm not sure why he would want to stay here when he could go to an organization with better management, receive some defensive leniency and the ability to play center, make more money (less taxes), and not have to deal with the annoying Canadian media.

This organization needs to begin considering how it is brutally alienating to talented individuals.

:2008122810303:

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21 hours ago, jwlk said:

if you consider me responding to your posts fallowing you around, than maybe you shouldn't be posting in forums, this is not a safe space zone, you will hear things that will upset you, not everyone has your view, i for one love AG when he played center on the 1st line, he was lighting it up, since then they have demoted him and punished him on every occasion, but that's just the way i see it, how was his corsi last year and the year before that, show me when they had him at center on the 1st line his corsi for that

IS this the best you got, its not a safe space zone? I am not even sure what that means. Listen I will say it again, give me some stats that show me how good he is and I will give 3 for everything he is bad at.

You mentioned him being stuck on the 4th ..Give me a % based on his total ice time. I know numbers don't seem to matter to you, its just what you see with your eyes. I can tell you he has played about 75% of his 5 on 5 minutes with Droiun. Let me know who you think our top six forwards are other then Gachenyk, And I will filter out the top six and give you a percentage where he played with two of our bottom six. I bet is it miniscule 

So he was great as a center ok, support that with some numbers.  tell me how great he was at center, show me, give me some numbers, anyone can say anything, but you need to support it. If yo don't have time give me the season and his linemates I will look it up when I have time.

 

 

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9 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

I think many here would say the same about your opinions .... take off the blinders that are causing you to so undervalue an offensive asset.   Through out history there have been offensively gifted players with defensive liabilities.    Last I checked AG was leading our team in points.    Without the proper supporting cast around him, sure it could be argued his defensive lapses hurt more than his offensive upside.

But on a good team, with proper linemates and a good defensive core .. he is exactly the kind of player you want in your lineup to produce offence.    

It simply seems you're biased despite the numerous arguments, facts and observations everyone else makes.     The bottom line is this team is poorly constructed and the offensive talents of AG are completely overshadowed by improper use, poor linemates, irregular playing time, poor team constructions etc etc .... unless we're talking about players like Lemieux, Gretzky, or Orr success doesnt come in isolation.    It's still a team game and a players strengths and weaknesses are only a piece of the puzzle in their success.

Your argument against him always boils down to "he's on the ice for more goals against than for" ... and looking down the list that can be said for almost everyone on the habs roster this year.  

Its not the same actually, I am supporting how bad he is using statistical info. All I get back is he is our leading scorer, he has bad linemates, he is not used properly, blah blah blah

Why has Patches been on of the top goal scorers in the NHL over the last 3 or 4 years? He has been surrounded by the same core players?

Don't get me wrong, There are lots of things wrong with this team and it starts with Bergevin.

But this is just like Bergevin and his cronies ingnoring the statiscal information showing how much better Subban was then Weber. Most are ignoring the numbers that indicate how brutal Galchenyk really  is. And now we have two players like that after we added Droiun.

Your argument against him always boils down to "he's on the ice for more goals against than for"  - it is quite significant to say the least, if this stat seems to follow one player over two or 3 seasons. Certainly would indicate a trend for sure, certainly a bad trend, but you are wrong because its not the only thing :)

His plus minus is one of the worst

His corsi for is one of the worst

SHots for and Shots against are one of the worst

He is on the ice more often then most other players when his line ends up in the defensive zone

I can go on and on provide supporting numbers can you do the same?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ravadak said:

I can go on and on provide supporting numbers can you do the same?

I'm quite sure you can present any stat of your choice in a fashion to support your argument, it doesn't make you correct in your assesment

18pt in last 21gp for AG

and "on the ice for more goals against than for" is a team responsibility, unless you're suggesting that the Habs woes are all down to Galchenyuk? :P

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^^ Ravadak, you want statisticss... I gave you some stats before and you wrote them off. So I'll give you some more and see what you think!

Let's start by saying once again that I agree with you that Galchenyuk is not good defensively. He absolutely has things to work on, but we also need to remember that he is one of the best offensive weapons on the team. And on a team that can't score reliably and a on a team with one of the best goalies in the league, you need to preferentially play the guys who can get you goals and figure out another way to patch your defence.

I gave you numbers before suggesting that Galchenyuk's linemates matter. If you look at most of the time he's played with Drouin, their lines have negative Corsi's. But if you look at the times he's played without Drouin, his possession numbers are better and sometimes positive. Now let's go back. In 4 of Galchenyuk's 5 seasons prior to this one, he had a positive Corsi. In 3 of the 5, he had a positive relative Corsi as well, indicating he had better than average possession numbers for our team. So what's the outlier here? Is it the majority of the past 5 years? Or is this year the one that's the most different?

Drouin with Galchenyuk seems to yield bad possession results. Both players are weak defensively, and we get torched because of it. Both players are better off without the other. But other players like Deslauriers and Carr and Lehkonen and Mitchell and Danault have had success with Galchenyuk. And the most interesting case is Brendan Gallagher. When BG and AG are together, they've had a Corsi % of 57.3%. Apart each player does worse. But the two players seem to have chemistry together. Gallagher and Galchenyuk together last year? CF of 53.4%. Galchenyuk also posted positive Corsi's playing with Carr, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Byron, Radulov, and Shaw. Two years ago, AG and BG together were at 53.2%, and AG was over 55% with Eller. He was a positive player with almost all of the players on the team. Three years ago, AG and BG were at 53.4%.

So yes, AG is bad defensively. But there are clearly players we can pair him with where it works. EGG was fantastic. Pacioretty with AG and Radulov was decent. Pacioretty with AG and BG was good. Prust with AG and BG was pretty decent in Galchenyuk and Gallagher's first season. So we know AG does well with Gallagher. So how much time have those two players had at 5v5 this season? 30 minutes. C'est tout. Instead of continuing to force the AG-Drouin pairing, the coaches would be smart to split those two up and put AG back at center with Gallagher on his right wing. It's worked in the past, and it could work again. Before dumping all over Galchenyuk, let's consider that he's been put in a situation which hasn't maximized his chances to succeed. Let's consider that we have a great asset that we could make use of to create offence, and we have players we could pair him with to avoid it creating defensive breakdowns. So whether that's Hudon-AG-BG or AG-Danault-BG or Max-AG-BG or Lehkonen-AG-BG or so on, there are options that could work a lot better than what we've gone with thus far. It's not all on Galchenyuk, a lot of his shortcomings can be blamed on his misuse by coaches throughout his career.

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11 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

It's not all on Galchenyuk, a lot of his shortcomings can be blamed on his misuse by coaches throughout his career.

Well said.    Without having given specific examples I said much the same ... when you have a player like AG (18pts in last 21g on this crappy team) that has defensive liabilities but untapped potential for offense you construct a line that maximizes his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.    The Habs seemingly keep trying to go back to the "Square peg, round hole".     Clearly if you want AG to use his skills to the max, you don't force him to try and be a 2way player ... you give him a 2way linemate like BG, Prust, Eller

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I'll add on as well that a major difference between the past 5 years and the present one is the defence. In past years, when you had guys like Subban and Markov and even Beaulieu, you had players who could move the puck out of our own zone and up to the forwards. Galchenyuk is really good at creating offence and scoring chances when he has the puck up ice. He struggles to get it out of his own zone though and when his line gets pinned, it frequently gives up a lot of chances too.

So play him with a D that can get the puck up ice and you reduce the number of chances against. Pair him with a D that is slow and can't move the puck, and the Habs get hemmed in. Players like Plekanec and Danault might be able to make up for the D's short-comings this year moreso than Galchenyuk, but Galchenyuk can do more than they can when a puck-moving D puts those players in the offensive zone. Take a look at AG's numbers this year compared to past seasons: his shots, Corsi, and scoring chances for per 60 minutes played are pretty much bang on his career averages. He's not producing any less offence than he usually does. What's changed is that his Corsi and scoring chances against per 60 are higher. Maybe part of that is playing with Drouin a lot, maybe part of it is that the defence as a whole is just really awful and AG and JD don't have the skillset to compensate for that:

AG with Schlemko: Corsi of 43%

AG with Alzner: 46%

AG with Jerabek: 47%

AG with Petry: 48%

AG with Morrow: 48%

AG with Benn: 49%

AG with Mete: 49%

AG with Weber: 50%

AG with Davidson: 51%

It's definitely better when he's playing with puck-moving/offensive D men than with the slower shot-locking types like Schlemko and Alzner. Grant it, the problem is that there always seems to be a slower shot-blocking type on the ice at all times this year!

So now go back to last year: AG was 58% with Barberio, 56% with Benn, 51% with Beaulieu and Markov and Petry, 50%+ with Weber. Two years ago, he's again 57% with Barberio, 55% with Petry, 53% with Emelin, 53% with Subban, 51% with Beaulieu and Markov... he put up pretty darn good possession numbers when we had a better defence.

So again, I'll come back to this: we know AG is bad defensively (as is Drouin and as was Desharnais), but it really seems like if you give Galchenyuk a line-up of puck-moving D, he produces positive possession numbers. When you put him in a line-up of slow-moving dinosaurs, he doesn't. When you play him with the likes of Gallagher, he scorches the other team. When he plays with guys who have the same deficiencies as him like Drouin, he gets scorched. We need to stop pretending that AG hurts the team no matter what. He only hurts the team if you don't put him with the right complement of players. Put him with the right players, and history shows that he clearly scores goals and does it giving our team more chances than they give up. No one is saying Galchenyuk is good defensively; what we're saying is that proper asset management would produce results. This has been the story the entire time under Bergevin and his coaches... you waste assets because you don't use them properly. Instead of complaining about AG, fix the problems by getting a GM who knows how to build a proper 2018 NHL defence corps and a coach who isn't afraid to use AG at center and play him with Gallagher, where both guys have more success together than apart.

 

 

 

 

 

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I agree that Galchenyuk should be put back at center, with Gallagher on his wing. The season is a write off. So lets see if he can pull himself out of this funk. When he first started playing he was actually better then he is now. His choices with the puck of either holding on to it too long or attempting low percentage passes is frustrating to watch. Reminds me of Scott Gomez. Drouin is playing a much similar game so they should not play together. What is mind boggling is what happened to  Galchenyuk, is he another Mike Ribero or are the coaches ruining his game. Something happened to him and I sure cannot figure it out. If it is not corrected, trading him will be the only option. 

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Define youthful maturity for me.

This guy would have to be 100% into the game of hockey to be his best at hockey to my mind and it would totally remove him from any sort of Captainship. He's not Montreal in the Montreal sense of it to my mind.

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On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎19 at 9:59 AM, HabsAlways said:

Well said.    Without having given specific examples I said much the same ... when you have a player like AG (18pts in last 21g on this crappy team) that has defensive liabilities but untapped potential for offense you construct a line that maximizes his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.    The Habs seemingly keep trying to go back to the "Square peg, round hole".     Clearly if you want AG to use his skills to the max, you don't force him to try and be a 2way player ... you give him a 2way linemate like BG, Prust, Eller

So by your calculations that would mean he only has 8 points in his other 26 games? Wow, that's not very good.  

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18 minutes ago, Ravadak said:

So by your calculations that would mean he only has 8 points in his other 26 games? Wow, that's not very good.  

He had a bad start to the season, as did most other Habs. He put up 8 points in the first 23 games, as you insinuated. For many of those games, he played on the 4th line with nobodies for linemates. In 9 of those games, he played under 15 minutes a game. The bottom line right now is that he has the 2nd most points on the team.

And before I hear more about +/- being more important than goals, yes Galchenyuk is -22. Pacioretty is -12. Drouin is -21. Petry is -24. Froese is +4. Deslauriers is +10. Schlemko is +3. So by all means, you take the last 3 guys to build a team and I'll take the first 4. We'll see how they do in the long run. As I said last game in the GDT, the Habs have allowed a lot of empty net goals against. 9 this year to be exact, most of which AG, JD, MP, and JP have been on the ice for. They got minus stats for all those goals against, but those don't really say that much about their defensive ability nor their goals for/against ratios, even though those count towards their 5v5 stats.

So yeah, I'll take what AG has given us this season over Deslauriers and Froese and Shaw and DLR and Plekanec and so on.

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Big Ted: Let's start by saying once again that I agree with you that Galchenyuk is not good defensively. He absolutely has things to work on, but we also need to remember that he is one of the best offensive weapons on the team. And on a team that can't score reliably and a on a team with one of the best goalies in the league, you need to preferentially play the guys who can get you goals and figure out another way to patch your defence.

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I wish you would respond to this, you keep bringing up Price almost everytime you mention Galchenyk offensive prowess. You talk about opening up the game because we have the worlds best goalie. But you miss the most important piece of this, the teams we play against. If we are already giving up 3 goals a game with price in nets on 10 scoring chances it only make sense that we will be giving up 4.5 goals on 15 chances. And because we only score 1 goal on 10 chances if that goes up to 15 chances odds are we only increase our scoring to 1.5 goals per game.  And if we just look at Galchenyk in a plastic bottle he has been consistently one of our worst forwards for being on wrong side for GF and GA since he has been in the league. Fact is when he is on the ice the puck ends up in our net more often then it ends up in the opposing net. It does not matter if its the coaches, linemates, playing on the wing, playing at center, bad luck. I am not making this up.

Also you make it sound like he is a perennial 30 goal 70 point player. If he was I could live with his shortcomings defensively.  But he is isn’t an offensive dynamo ( although it looks like he should be) and when you add  how brutal he is defensively well its not that great a combination.

2017/18 - 132 in the league in scoring

2016/17 - 139 in the league in scoring

2015/16 - 56 in the league in scoring

2014/15 - 108 in the league in scoring

This is his 6th season and he is on pace for what 18 or 19  goals? Last year 21 or 22? Year before 30 Irontically the worst year I can remember our team ever having. Year before 20, Year before that 16, Year before that  15.  Looks to me an outlier would be the year he had 30. He has topped out at 56 points

What we need to get better as a team is a number 1 and number 2 centerman and 2 or 3 top end puck moving dee who can make a strong first pass. NOT a 20 goal winger who is brutal on the defensive side of the puck. 

If he can get us just one of those pieces in a trade I am all in.

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Big Ted: I gave you numbers before suggesting that Galchenyuk's linemates matter. If you look at most of the time he's played with Drouin, their lines have negative Corsi's. But if you look at the times he's played without Drouin, his possession numbers are better and sometimes positive. Now let's go back. In 4 of Galchenyuk's 5 seasons prior to this one, he had a positive Corsi. In 3 of the 5, he had a positive relative Corsi as well, indicating he had better than average possession numbers for our team. So what's the outlier here? Is it the majority of the past 5 years? Or is this year the one that's the most different?

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This year is not really an outlier though, if you look at last season relative to team corsi he was not very good either. And we did not have Drouin to blame. 

He did have two good seasons in  2014/15 to 2015/16.

2018/17 - 47.8 team corsi is 51.26%

2017/16 - 50.13 team corsi is 52.54

2016/15 - 53.11 team corsi is 51.39

2015/14 - 50.83 team corsi is 48.52

2014/13 - 47.16 team corsi is 46.74

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Big Ted: Drouin with Galchenyuk seems to yield bad possession results. Both players are weak defensively, and we get torched because of it. Both players are better off without the other. But other players like Deslauriers and Carr and Lehkonen and Mitchell and Danault have had success with Galchenyuk. And the most interesting case is Brendan Gallagher. When BG and AG are together, they've had a Corsi % of 57.3%. Apart each player does worse. But the two players seem to have chemistry together. Gallagher and Galchenyuk together last year? CF of 53.4%. Galchenyuk also posted positive Corsi's playing with Carr, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Byron, Radulov, and Shaw. Two years ago, AG and BG together were at 53.2%, and AG was over 55% with Eller. He was a positive player with almost all of the players on the team. Three years ago, AG and BG were at 53.4%.

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I agree about Drouin and Galchenyk but that is what everybody wanted. That is what everybody wined about. He is not getting to play with skilled players how can he succeed/How is he supposed to score. Now that he is, the fault again is who he is playing with. When does it end.

I get the defensive problems. But  should he not be generating more offense now playing with probably one of our most skilled forwards. Yet he is not…

Although your numbers seem accurate and AG CF is higher then normal playing with BG, there is something else to be said about this, so too are the other players that play with BG

Certainly playing with BG helps AG. But BG playing with almost any other forward helps himself even  more J

So I agree he has positive CF% there are still far better line combos to utilize BG with ..

You will notice although AG number are above 50% its still lower then these other line combos…

Here are some line ombos over the last 5 seasons and again just because AG had better numbers there were still better combos.

P1 P3 P3 Season Team GP TOI CF CA C+/- CF%
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER PAUL.BYRON TORREY.MITCHELL 2013-2018 MTL 28 78.31 84 60 24 58.33
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER MAX.PACIORETTY TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 191 612.75 690 515 175 57.26
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER MAX.PACIORETTY PHILLIP.DANAULT 2013-2018 MTL 47 108.66 138 104 34 57.02
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER DAVID.DESHARNAIS MAX.PACIORETTY 2013-2018 MTL 155 740.58 834 664 170 55.67
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER PAUL.BYRON TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 69 312.27 326 268 58 54.88
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER PAUL.BYRON TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 69 312.27 326 268 58 54.88
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 137 657.72 705 613 92 53.49
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 137 657.72 705 613 92 53.49
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER LARS.ELLER 2013-2018 MTL 99 227.05 251 225 26 52.73
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER DAVID.DESHARNAIS 2013-2018 MTL 102 114.11 111 125 -14 47.03

 

The problem is no longer just has defensive problems which is brutal to say the least he is not even scoring at a pace that makes him a viable top line player.  

 

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13 minutes ago, Ravadak said:

Many of those games on the 4th line are you kidding me LOL. 

Patrice Bergeeron +23 Marchnd +24, Victor Hedman +24, William Karlson  +22 iw ill take those 4 over your 4

Why is that a joke? AG played a number of games on the 4th line. He did it last here, he's had to do it again this year.

I would take those 4 guys over AG/JD/MP/JP as well. My point is that +/- doesn't define a player. Just because Deslauriers is +10 doesn't mean he's better than AG or MP. Hedman was only +3 last year. He's had seasons where he was a negative player. But he was just as good a defenceman last year as this year, he just played on a worse team with worse luck. +/- remains a team stat and says very little about individual players.

12 minutes ago, Ravadak said:

 

This is such a ridiculous comment to make big ted. who wouldn't take Ag over them. It not always that simple. 

But you've previously used +/- as a way of arguing that AG shouldn't get ice time. You've quoted his +/- stat repeatedly as a way of criticizing him. I'm simply showing you the stat doesn't tell you very much at all. I don't see how that's a ridiculous comment. My point all along is that it's not that simple to just look at +/-. I've given you stats showing AG's possession numbers have been better in the past. I've given you stats showing AG has been dominant playing with Gallagher and with a better, puck-moving defence corps. So if you're going to keep coming back with +/- as one of the arguments against AG (or if someone used the same argument against MP or JP or JD for that matter), then my post is not ridiculous, it's just proof that the stat doesn't tell us all that much.

 

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23 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Why is that a joke? AG played a number of games on the 4th line. He did it last here, he's had to do it again this year.

Its a joke because he has probably played about 3 % of his total minutes on the 4th line that why. 

But you've previously used +/- as a way of arguing that AG shouldn't get ice time. You've quoted his +/- stat repeatedly as a way of criticizing him. I'm simply showing you the stat doesn't tell you very much at all. I don't see how that's a ridiculous comment. My point all along is that it's not that simple to just look at +/-. I've given you stats showing AG's possession numbers have been better in the past. I've given you stats showing AG has been dominant playing with Gallagher and with a better, puck-moving defence corps. So if you're going to keep coming back with +/- as one of the arguments against AG (or if someone used the same argument against MP or JP or JD for that matter), then my post is not ridiculous, it's just proof that the stat doesn't tell us all that much.

+ -  is a factor, not the only factor and pretty much useless over a small sample size. but when a player plays on the same team for 6 years and consistently has one of the worst plus minus of all the forwards than yes it relative. 

I have talked about a lot of other things you just choose to ignore, CF and CA ShotsF and ShotsA, how he has to be sheltered more then almost any other forward, OZS, DZS...

And what makes things even more funny, you among others were crying about Glachenyk, playing on the fourth line with 4th lines players how is he supposed to score, Then when he gets to play with high end offensive talent, your complaining about that.

I have never seen one player have some many people come up with so many excuses. Its is linemates, its because he was on the 4th line, its because our denfenceman are not very good, its because he does not get enough time on the PP, its because the planets are not alined. 

 

 

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On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎19 at 11:31 AM, BigTed3 said:

I'll add on as well that a major difference between the past 5 years and the present one is the defence. In past years, when you had guys like Subban and Markov and even Beaulieu, you had players who could move the puck out of our own zone and up to the forwards. Galchenyuk is really good at creating offence and scoring chances when he has the puck up ice. He struggles to get it out of his own zone though and when his line gets pinned, it frequently gives up a lot of chances too.

So play him with a D that can get the puck up ice and you reduce the number of chances against. Pair him with a D that is slow and can't move the puck, and the Habs get hemmed in. Players like Plekanec and Danault might be able to make up for the D's short-comings this year moreso than Galchenyuk, but Galchenyuk can do more than they can when a puck-moving D puts those players in the offensive zone. Take a look at AG's numbers this year compared to past seasons: his shots, Corsi, and scoring chances for per 60 minutes played are pretty much bang on his career averages. He's not producing any less offence than he usually does. What's changed is that his Corsi and scoring chances against per 60 are higher. Maybe part of that is playing with Drouin a lot, maybe part of it is that the defence as a whole is just really awful and AG and JD don't have the skillset to compensate for that:

AG with Schlemko: Corsi of 43%

AG with Alzner: 46%

AG with Jerabek: 47%

AG with Petry: 48%

AG with Morrow: 48%

AG with Benn: 49%

AG with Mete: 49%

AG with Weber: 50%

AG with Davidson: 51%

It's definitely better when he's playing with puck-moving/offensive D men than with the slower shot-locking types like Schlemko and Alzner. Grant it, the problem is that there always seems to be a slower shot-blocking type on the ice at all times this year!

So now go back to last year: AG was 58% with Barberio, 56% with Benn, 51% with Beaulieu and Markov and Petry, 50%+ with Weber. Two years ago, he's again 57% with Barberio, 55% with Petry, 53% with Emelin, 53% with Subban, 51% with Beaulieu and Markov... he put up pretty darn good possession numbers when we had a better defence.

 

Really this makes me smile. Only because all our forwards probably have would have a better corsi with those dee. 

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Finding it a little hard to go through the posts because of the format, but going to say this:

- I have never once disputed that Galchenyuk is weak defensively. I have never once said he doesn't need sheltering, better zone starts, or specific linemates.

- I maintain that you can't expect a goal scorer to score goals playing with DLR and Martinsen and Ott and Froese or so on.

- Yes, I wanted to see AG with JD to see what they could do. In the end, it didn't work, just like Drouin and Pacioretty didn't work. Again, I suspect JD and AG are too similar in playing style with the same strengths and weaknesses and they don't see to complement each other that well. Yes, I wanted to see it, but it's time to move on. Clearly it isn't the answer. I can admit it didn't work, but the smart thing to do is not to persist and think it'll work itself out. Instead, I've given you numbers showing AG has worked well with other players in the past, Gallagher being the most impressive one. And this isn't over a small sample size, it's a consistent observation that their numbers are better together over several years.

- Does Gallagher make other players better? Yeah, but AG has also made BG better. Their CF% together is 55.8%. AG is 47% without him, BG is 53% without AG.

- Again, I'll come back to the same point... you have Price, who is supposedly the best or one of the best goalies in the league. So trust him to stop the puck and use players who can score at the other end. It doesn't help you to have Price and 5 guys who only play defence in front of him. If you believe your goalie can stop a higher percentage of shots and scoring chances than the other guy, then you want to play high event hockey and trade chances. So what would I do as a coach? I would try to get more guys who play high event hockey and who can score. If I need to use a BG or a Danault or a Lehkonen to shelter Galchenyuk then I do it. I don't just glue AG to the bench and talk about how he gives up more goals than he scores. We agree that that has happened this year. My goal is to find a way to fix that, and I'm offering a potential solution. I also think it's clear AG has produced more at center and if you look at his production playing the 1C role, he in fact would be on track for 30 goals and 70 points a season, so why not give it a try.

- I think we can all agree our D needs to be upgraded. Find more guys like Mete and Petry and less guys like Alzner and Benn and Schlemko. It makes it easier for Price and it makes it work better for players like Galchenyuk and Pacioretty and Drouin. Instead of focusing on AG being weak defensively, I would focus on fixing the defence so that AG and JD can concentrate more on producing instead of having to play in their own zone a lot.

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Just a side note because you got me hooked on Corsi :). Forget the plus minus :)

Over the last 5 years I looked at line combos for the habs with more than 200 minutes and Galchenyk does not even show up until number 8.

      Season Team GP TOI CF CA C+/- CF%
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER MAX.PACIORETTY TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 191 612.75 690 515 175 57.26
ANDREW.SHAW MAX.PACIORETTY PHILLIP.DANAULT 2013-2018 MTL 58 331.12 378 284 94 57.1
ALEX.RADULOV MAX.PACIORETTY PHILLIP.DANAULT 2013-2018 MTL 53 443.94 477 366 111 56.58
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER DAVID.DESHARNAIS MAX.PACIORETTY 2013-2018 MTL 155 740.58 834 664 170 55.67
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER PAUL.BYRON TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 69 312.27 326 268 58 54.88
DALE.WEISE DAVID.DESHARNAIS TOMAS.FLEISCHMANN 2013-2018 MTL 41 317.19 301 251 50 54.53
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER CHARLES.HUDON TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 30 205.77 247 212 35 53.81
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 137 657.72 705 613 92 53.49
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER MAX.PACIORETTY 2013-2018 MTL 78 285.3 313 275 38 53.23
DALE.WEISE DAVID.DESHARNAIS MAX.PACIORETTY 2013-2018 MTL 87 334.24 379 334 45 53.16
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER LARS.ELLER 2013-2018 MTL 99 227.05 251 225 26 52.73
DAVID.DESHARNAIS MAX.PACIORETTY PIERRE-ALEX.PARENTEAU 2013-2018 MTL 43 223.45 217 195 22 52.67
BRANDON.PRUST JIRI.SEKAC LARS.ELLER 2013-2018 MTL 33 239.19 197 204 -7 49.13
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37 minutes ago, Ravadak said:

Just a side note because you got me hooked on Corsi :). Forget the plus minus :)

Over the last 5 years I looked at line combos for the habs with more than 200 minutes and Galchenyk does not even show up until number 8.

      Season Team GP TOI CF CA C+/- CF%
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER MAX.PACIORETTY TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 191 612.75 690 515 175 57.26
ANDREW.SHAW MAX.PACIORETTY PHILLIP.DANAULT 2013-2018 MTL 58 331.12 378 284 94 57.1
ALEX.RADULOV MAX.PACIORETTY PHILLIP.DANAULT 2013-2018 MTL 53 443.94 477 366 111 56.58
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER DAVID.DESHARNAIS MAX.PACIORETTY 2013-2018 MTL 155 740.58 834 664 170 55.67
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER PAUL.BYRON TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 69 312.27 326 268 58 54.88
DALE.WEISE DAVID.DESHARNAIS TOMAS.FLEISCHMANN 2013-2018 MTL 41 317.19 301 251 50 54.53
BRENDAN.GALLAGHER CHARLES.HUDON TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 30 205.77 247 212 35 53.81
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER TOMAS.PLEKANEC 2013-2018 MTL 137 657.72 705 613 92 53.49
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER MAX.PACIORETTY 2013-2018 MTL 78 285.3 313 275 38 53.23
DALE.WEISE DAVID.DESHARNAIS MAX.PACIORETTY 2013-2018 MTL 87 334.24 379 334 45 53.16
ALEX.GALCHENYUK BRENDAN.GALLAGHER LARS.ELLER 2013-2018 MTL 99 227.05 251 225 26 52.73
DAVID.DESHARNAIS MAX.PACIORETTY PIERRE-ALEX.PARENTEAU 2013-2018 MTL 43 223.45 217 195 22 52.67
BRANDON.PRUST JIRI.SEKAC LARS.ELLER 2013-2018 MTL 33 239.19 197 204 -7 49.13

Sure, there have been a lot of different line combos.. so here you've shown me

1. Pacioretty is a very good possession player.

2. Gallagher is a very good possession player.

3. Galchenyuk has posted three lines with Corsi's of 53.49%, 53.23%, and 52.73%. I'm not asking him to be the best possession player on the team, but if he's putting up numbers like those in several different combos AND putting up more points than the majority of his teammates, then he's not hurting us in those roles.

4. I don't see guys like Froese, DLR, Ott, Martinsen, Mitchell, Lehkonen, Flynn, Deslauriers, Drouin, King or so on here and guys like DD, Weise, Byron, Shaw, and Hudon don't seem to be featured here any more than AG is. This whole debate started around the fact that Galchenyuk was on several occasions played less than the likes of Deslauriers, Froese, King, and other 4th-line types. That should probably never happen. Again, this isn't saying AG is the best player on the team, just that he doesn't deserve to be stuck on the 4th line and that it doesn't make sense for the coach to accuse him of slumping when other players fail to produce for longer stretches and no better possession numbers and still get to play (I'm thinking of DD's 30-game+ stretch with no goals where he still got to play the 1C slot next to Pacioretty and still got PP time)...

 

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