Did we mess up again?

[GreekHockeyCoach]

At the time, I thought that getting Julien was a much better option than Therrien. In hindsight, did we mess up? Boston is killing it since Julien left and with the same core players. This whole season has been a mess but we still have the same core of players that were winning once upon a time. Is the coaching bad or is it the players? Would Therrien has done a better job this year?

[ChiLla]

I don't think that Boston is successful this year because they canned Claude Julien. After winning the Cup, it took them a while to get younger and restructure their team, young players like Pastrnak (who really came into his own while CJ was still there last season) as well as DeBrusk, Heinen and McAvoy needed time to develop. Their 'old core' with Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci etc. has historically performed well under Julien and with the rise of their younger guys, they're now a much better team.

So, to answer your question, no – I don't think we messed up again. CJ is a major upgrade on Therrien in every single aspect. Sure, he's made mistakes but this isn't the same core anymore. I honestly believe that we have one of the worst groups of Dmen in the game, if not the worst. And that's fully on MB.

[BigTed3]

There are some things I don't agree with when it comes to Julien's decision-making. He ragged on Galchenyuk for too long. He overplays Alzner and Schlemko. It took Weber's injury to force his coaching staff to make changes to the PP that worked (namely getting AG onto the right point and Max to the slot rather than vice versa). He loves Tomas Plekanec too much. BUT...

- Julien actually seems to have a system. Even the players said when he first came in that it was different to see a coach have a plan more than dump in along the boards

- Julien by all accounts doesn't treat people like they're animals the way Therrien did. The media said it, a lot of players have said it, but even though Therrien was a rah-rah guy, he seemed to be not a very nice person in real life. Perhaps that doesn't affect your ability to coach, but I will very well root for a nicer guy over whatever else.

- Under Julien, more young guys have had an opportunity. Hudon never got a chance under MT. He's getting top 6-9 minutes now. Lehkonen is still out there every night despite not scoring as much. Scherbak has a shot to play with skill players. Mete made the team. I'm not sure any of those things happen under MT. So while we might be having growing pains this season, getting those guys in will benefit us going forward.

- As Chilla has said, our D corps is maybe the worst in the league. Andrew Berkshire actually posted data (which I added here earlier) showing the Habs D corps is the worst in the league at generating offence. It was predictable based on personnel and how slow they are. Give CJ players like McAvoy and Carlo and Krug on the back end and he'd do better than what he's doing now. I think a lot of the lack of offence can be blamed on the poor transition game to be honest.

[ChiLla]

Yeah, I just read that we've lost 9 of our last 10 road games. In those 9 games, we were shutout 3 times and limited to 1 measly goal 5 times, which is absolutely brutal. The only loss in which we've managed to score more than 1 goal was the Flyers game, while the only win was a 1-goal game against the Capitals where Niemi was voted 1st star of the night. I don't think that's on the coach, to me it speaks to a clear lack of quality personnel and that definitely starts with our disastrous defence. I mean we have two legit Top 4 guys who both play the same side and a huge selection of #5-7 Dmen, i.e. bottom pairing guys that need to be sheltered. Combine that with the total lack of scoring centers and here we are, a team that just isn't good enough to play .500 hockey.

[maas_art]

Agree with ChiLla.   The only problem with hiring Julien (or another quality coach) was that we waited too long.  By the time we hired him MB had already destroyed a lot of what we had going for us.  Imagine Julien with the roster we had in MB's 2nd or 3rd year? 

The B's were severely underperforming last year but I dont think that was on the coach. It was, as mentioned, a team in transition, and they were also getting pretty brutal goaltending.

 

Do i think is the best coach in the league? no.  Do i think he deserves to be in discussions as one of the best 10?  Probably. I am not convinced he can adapt his system to the new NHl but until he's given a roster that actually fits the way the league is going, i dont think we can fairly judge him on that either.   He's night and day better than MT. 

[Noob616]

Mete would never have been on this team past October under Therrien. 

[maas_art]

38 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

Mete would never have been on this team past October under Therrien. 

For sure.  Hudon wouldnt have been given the opportunity to grown and learn - even Lehkonen would have probably been pushed down the lineup after the slow start.  Julien demands a lot but I think, aside from just being a better technically-sound coach, is also much better at communicating.  It sounds like AG and CJ have really turned a corner and I wouldnt be surprised at all if CJ has asked MB not to trade chucky. 

[habs1952]

8 hours ago, ChiLla said:

I don't think that Boston is successful this year because they canned Claude Julien. After winning the Cup, it took them a while to get younger and restructure their team, young players like Pastrnak (who really came into his own while CJ was still there last season) as well as DeBrusk, Heinen and McAvoy needed time to develop. Their 'old core' with Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci etc. has historically performed well under Julien and with the rise of their younger guys, they're now a much better team.

So, to answer your question, no – I don't think we messed up again. CJ is a major upgrade on Therrien in every single aspect. Sure, he's made mistakes but this isn't the same core anymore. I honestly believe that we have one of the worst groups of Dmen in the game, if not the worst. And that's fully on MB.

I'll go with what ChiLla wrote and add our lack of a top centerman doesn't help CJ.

[H_T_L]

I haven't been greatly impressed by CJ. I think he's done better then MT could have done with this sad sack collection of a defense that MB has put together, but he has made a few questionable decisions, roster wise. When somebody ties your hands like Bergevin has done, i suppose you need the benefit of doubt,,,  and for now that's all i'll give him.

At least he has maintained his composure under these circumstances. I can just imagine what MT would have done in the same situation. He likely would have crucified half the team by now and thrown the other half under the bus.

[maas_art]

2 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I haven't been greatly impressed by CJ. I think he's done better then MT could have done with this sad sack collection of a defense that MB has put together, but he has made a few questionable decisions, roster wise. When somebody ties your hands like Bergevin has done, i suppose you need the benefit of doubt,,,  and for now that's all i'll give him.

Yeah, the Galchenyuk thing is obviously the most glaring but based on CJ's history and what he's done with other players on our roster Im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that MB is telling him he cannot try AG back at centre.

With regards to underutilizing him early in the year, I have theorized for a while, after reading between the lines, that AG may have been hurt and CJ played him in a lower spot in the lineup so that when he didnt produce, we would all complain about CJ, not AG. 

[HabsRuleForever]

On 2018-02-15 at 0:22 PM, H_T_L said:

I haven't been greatly impressed by CJ. I think he's done better then MT could have done with this sad sack collection of a defense that MB has put together, but he has made a few questionable decisions, roster wise. When somebody ties your hands like Bergevin has done, i suppose you need the benefit of doubt,,,  and for now that's all i'll give him.

At least he has maintained his composure under these circumstances. I can just imagine what MT would have done in the same situation. He likely would have crucified half the team by now and thrown the other half under the bus.

I’d have to agree. Julien is by far a better coach than Therible Therrien. It’s hard to coach & win, at the NHL level when half your roster is AHL caliber.

One more point about the Bruins success this season is Rask has been playing lights out in net. Also the backup has been playing really well too.

[Habs_Hockey_Nutz]

We , the fans, haven't done anything wrong... but they, the management, have done oodles wrong. And IMHO hiring Julien so fast at the time was a wrong considering the length of contract and what may have been available had they waited to look for other candidates. I wanted to be rid of, not just Therrien, but the whole management team including the AHL... and that should have happened after the season

[Noob616]

1 hour ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

We , the fans, haven't done anything wrong... but they, the management, have done oodles wrong. And IMHO hiring Julien so fast at the time was a wrong considering the length of contract and what may have been available had they waited to look for other candidates. 

Eh. It was February in the run up to the playoffs and we all would have been mad if the Habs went into Weber's first playoff run (and what turned out to be Markov and Radulov's last) with a lame duck interim coach. Hard to fault Bergevin for hiring a consensus top 5 coach in the NHL when he was available mid season. 

I can't fault Julien for having an unsuccessful first season. It's true Therrien got more out of the Habs but he also had 27-33 year old Plekanec and not 34 year old 3rd line checking C Plekanec. He had Markov for 5 years as a strong #2. He had Eller and Desharnais who were decent middle six centers. He had Price during his prime instead of during this bizzare year of injuries and "chronic fatigue" on the wrong side of 30. He had guys like Beaulieu, Gilbert, etc on his 3rd pair instead of Morrow. And of course, he had 22-26 year old PK Subban instead of 26 games of a 31 year old Shea Weber with a broken foot. 

This roster is a joke. The "1C" is a 50 point winger and PP specialist. Danault is barely an adequate 2C, he's fine but doesn't stack up with 2Cs like Turris, Kadri, Kuznetsov, Point, Little, Backlund, Malkin, Krejci, etc. The defense is Weber, Petry, a teenage rookie, and a bunch of interchangeable depth guys. The wingers are OK but without good centers or defensemen to drive possession and control the transition game they're much less effective. I'm not worried about Price in the long run but his season has been overall very poor. 

[Regis22]

30 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

 It's true Therrien got more out of the Habs

For starters

MT had a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better D and he a Radulov .

 

[archey]

When I go to the blues jam I get a crowd of dancers, French speaking people, or kids but no mix.

Therrien thought winning was the best solution for the mix and I tend to suggest that - all right ...that was one solution. Julien on the other hand thinks that experience and system will improve. It only improves if you have the players involved. Subban was involved. How much hang over is there? A lot I presume

The whole thing is messed up. To me that's obvious. And we can't keep moving our AHL team. That needs to settle down. Will it help Julien? Not in the least. Will it help the players? Depends on assistant coaches or management.

What do you think GHC?

[Ravadak]

I don't think it was a wrong choice. He is by all accounts one of the top coaches in the NHL. I do however think the game is changing and older coaches that have been around the game for so long need to be flushed out our system. We need to start looking at younger coaching minds. With French not being the criteria even having said that I would be looking at coaches like  Dominique Ducharme , Jay Leach , Sheldon Keefe  etc.

However this is the least of our worries right now. We have crap for management, our AHL hockey coaching staff is even worse then crap, AHL team should have a roster with an average age of 22 to 23 with your oldest player maybe 25 or 26. If they have not made the jump by then they never will and why have them on your roster. We should not care about trying to win at this level we should care about developing first then the winning will take care of itself

[RuudNuij]

On 17-2-2018 at 5:49 PM, Noob616 said:

I can't fault Julien for having an unsuccessful first season. It's true Therrien got more out of the Habs but he also had 27-33 year old Plekanec and not 34 year old 3rd line checking C Plekanec. He had Markov for 5 years as a strong #2. He had Eller and Desharnais who were decent middle six centers. He had Price during his prime instead of during this bizzare year of injuries and "chronic fatigue" on the wrong side of 30. He had guys like Beaulieu, Gilbert, etc on his 3rd pair instead of Morrow. And of course, he had 22-26 year old PK Subban instead of 26 games of a 31 year old Shea Weber with a broken foot. 

This roster is a joke. The "1C" is a 50 point winger and PP specialist. Danault is barely an adequate 2C, he's fine but doesn't stack up with 2Cs like Turris, Kadri, Kuznetsov, Point, Little, Backlund, Malkin, Krejci, etc. The defense is Weber, Petry, a teenage rookie, and a bunch of interchangeable depth guys. The wingers are OK but without good centers or defensemen to drive possession and control the transition game they're much less effective. I'm not worried about Price in the long run but his season has been overall very poor. 

Good Post,   .. the team WAS much better, and a fair view of what we have now.

[archey]

23 hours ago, Ravadak said:

I don't think it was a wrong choice. He is by all accounts one of the top coaches in the NHL. I do however think the game is changing and older coaches that have been around the game for so long need to be flushed out our system. We need to start looking at younger coaching minds. With French not being the criteria even having said that I would be looking at coaches like  Dominique Ducharme , Jay Leach , Sheldon Keefe  etc.

However this is the least of our worries right now. We have crap for management, our AHL hockey coaching staff is even worse then crap, AHL team should have a roster with an average age of 22 to 23 with your oldest player maybe 25 or 26. If they have not made the jump by then they never will and why have them on your roster. We should not care about trying to win at this level we should care about developing first then the winning will take care of itself

Totally agree that if you're older and have served a shift previously you are no longer a candidate. Long memories and you can see- nothing new to add. Not to say if CJ wore a hat or a t-shirt things wouldn't be different................I joke. Somewhat...

[maas_art]

On 2/17/2018 at 8:49 AM, Noob616 said:

This roster is a joke. The "1C" is a 50 point winger and PP specialist. Danault is barely an adequate 2C, he's fine but doesn't stack up with 2Cs like Turris, Kadri, Kuznetsov, Point, Little, Backlund, Malkin, Krejci, etc. The defense is Weber, Petry, a teenage rookie, and a bunch of interchangeable depth guys. The wingers are OK but without good centers or defensemen to drive possession and control the transition game they're much less effective. I'm not worried about Price in the long run but his season has been overall very poor. 

This is probably the most astute break-down of our roster ive seen actually.  And thats the thing. We have some good pieces, but are sorely lacking some of the most important.  Who cares if you have 4 strong left wings when you dont have a #1c or top pairing d-man?