The Subban Trade

[East_Coast_Juggalo_13]

With Lou becoming the new prez in Brooklyn, don't be surprised if Garth Snow gets let go in favor of Mark Hunter.

[maas_art]

Just now, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

With Lou becoming the new prez in Brooklyn, don't be surprised if Garth Snow gets let go in favor of Mark Hunter.

How I wish we'd hire a real Prez instead of Geoff "i admit that I dont know alot about hockey" Molson.   

[Habs=stanleycup]

57 minutes ago, maas_art said:

How I wish we'd hire a real Prez instead of Geoff "i admit that I dont know alot about hockey" Molson.   

[maas_art]

39 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Its funny but its true.  I mean why name yourself "president" and then constantly tell people you dont know how to build a winner but Marc Bergevin does.   Surely if you honestly believe you dont know about your business you should let someone else have the most important position?? I have no doubt MB is a great silent owner.  Im sure he signs the cheques on time and stands behind his employees. But its becoming increasingly clear he does not intend to involve himself in hockey operations and as such should not be president!

[Habs=stanleycup]

13 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Its funny but its true.  I mean why name yourself "president" and then constantly tell people you dont know how to build a winner but Marc Bergevin does.   Surely if you honestly believe you dont know about your business you should let someone else have the most important position?? I have no doubt MB is a great silent owner.  Im sure he signs the cheques on time and stands behind his employees. But its becoming increasingly clear he does not intend to involve himself in hockey operations and as such should not be president!

You're preaching to the choir my friend. 

I'm MORE than convinced that this owner is doing more harm than good to this team by his own ignorance.

[Larry-Launstein-Jr]

Thanks. Now I remember who that player was. Still a horrific trade that should not have been made.

 

[HabsAlways]

On 5/20/2018 at 0:09 PM, caperns61 said:

 

I wish people would cut the crap about Subban not being liked. So what, who cares if he was or not. He was an elite defenseman. Who defended everyone of his teammates every single time he was in the eye of the media hurricane ...That's is a team player period period period. Its not a popularity contest.

Just because certain players could not adjust to his personality, that is their problem,  those players should have been moved not an elite puck moving deeman who you just signed.

I've said this before.    When you look at the room ... unless it was Price and Paccioretty combining forces to get rid of Subban ... you as the GM tell the rest of the room to put their big boy pants on and deal with it.    

The trade was bad on two fronts from a pure hockey standpoint

1) Norris winning DMAN ...  its rare they're traded and it never ends well for the team trading them away.    Beyond the "personality" rumours there was ZERO hockey reason to trade PK Subban.

                  https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/history/2016/7/24/12231022/trading-norris-trophy-winning-defencemen-montreal-canadiens-doug-harvey-chris-chelios-pk-subban

 

2)   So fine, you buy into the whole dogma of 'problem in the room' ... and that leaves in the corner trying to defend a 1 for 1 trade with an older, slower, declining player for your mid-20s stud.   So not only was the trade unnecessary from a hockey standpoint ... as PK was clearly our #1 dman ... the return makes no sense.    If they had gotten a PPG #1 center for him, then sure maybe you can argue the ends justified the means. 

 

 

[HabsAlways]

On 5/20/2018 at 3:47 PM, Windoe said:

 

Trading Subban at the time was the right move, but the Subban trade return was bad.  When you think of the possible returns we could have gotten, what a waste.  I believe at the time he was our #2 asset, behind Price, and he was the most fun player to watch from a fan's perspective on pretty much every night.

Subban was not liked in the room by the majority of his Montreal teammates in his last year with Montreal.  Why does this matter?  Probably for team chemistry in MB's eyes.  Given PK's near-Norris like play on the ice, in the regular season and playoffs when we made them, it speaks volumes that MB still traded him.  Also, when you look at the trade's return, Weber, he's pretty much the opposite of PK in the locker room.  This is not conjecture, this is what I hear from NHL/AHL players/management when I take them fishing.  So again, it speaks to the point that MB values team chemistry, and replaced a problem child with a respected man mountain.  Talent went down, chemistry went up and mediocrity continued.  Rearranging the seats on the titanic still ends in the ship sinking.

Somehow MB got on a life raft.  

 

 

 

There is zero concrete evidence of this "not liked" mumbo jumbo.  Who we was not liked by was Therrien who was predisposed to not liking him even before he became coach.    To say trading Subban was the right move is just drinking MB and MT's kool-aid and going along with their made up justifications for it.   There was zero on ice reason to trade PK Subban ... the only way you justify that trade is if the return fixed another hole (ie #1 C) and that the other 30 GMs all nod and think "that's a fair trade" ... I think a good chunk of them agree Habs got fleeced on a 1 for 1 PK for Weber.

 

 

[HabsAlways]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:05 PM, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

The worst trade in Habs history:

Rod Langway, Brian Engblom, Doug Jarvis and another player I forget who it was for Rick Green and Ryan Walter.

The second worst: Doug Harvey for Lou Fontinato.

Dec 6th, 1995 -   Patrick Roy and Mike Keane to Colorado for Kovalenko, Thibault and Rucinsky

The return for Roy was seen as uneven at the time it was made, and eventually became known as one of the most one-sided deals in NHL history.

[Habs=stanleycup]

9 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

There is zero concrete evidence of this "not liked" mumbo jumbo.  Who we was not liked by was Therrien who was predisposed to not liking him even before he became coach.    To say trading Subban was the right move is just drinking MB and MT's kool-aid and going along with their made up justifications for it.   There was zero on ice reason to trade PK Subban ... the only way you justify that trade is if the return fixed another hole (ie #1 C) and that the other 30 GMs all nod and think "that's a fair trade" ... I think a good chunk of them agree Habs got fleeced on a 1 for 1 PK for Weber.

 

 

[maas_art]

15 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

There is zero concrete evidence of this "not liked" mumbo jumbo.  Who we was not liked by was Therrien who was predisposed to not liking him even before he became coach.    To say trading Subban was the right move is just drinking MB and MT's kool-aid and going along with their made up justifications for it.   There was zero on ice reason to trade PK Subban ... the only way you justify that trade is if the return fixed another hole (ie #1 C) and that the other 30 GMs all nod and think "that's a fair trade" ... I think a good chunk of them agree Habs got fleeced on a 1 for 1 PK for Weber.

Totally.   A lot of assumptions are being made, most notably "He wasnt voted captain so obviously everyone hated him"  which is pretty ludicrous.   There are plenty of guys you like (or can at least stand to work with) that you wouldnt want as captain.    Sure, some guys will vote for captain as a popularity contest but plenty of others will vote based on who they think is the best leader.    To say that one thing proves the other is Trump-Logic. 

[habs1952]

57 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Totally.   A lot of assumptions are being made, most notably "He wasnt voted captain so obviously everyone hated him"  which is pretty ludicrous.   There are plenty of guys you like (or can at least stand to work with) that you wouldnt want as captain.    Sure, some guys will vote for captain as a popularity contest but plenty of others will vote based on who they think is the best leader.    To say that one thing proves the other is Trump-Logic. 

I wonder how many of the players now wish they had voted for Subban to be captain.

[maas_art]

2 hours ago, habs1952 said:

I wonder how many of the players now wish they had voted for Subban to be captain.

Haha.  Well to be fair, I bet that most of the guys really like Shea Weber too.  But I am sure most - not all, clearly there's no love lost between PK and BG - deep down would rather have Subban's smooth skating bringing the puck up to them for a play. 

[Larry-Launstein-Jr]

On 5/28/2018 at 8:21 PM, HabsAlways said:

Dec 6th, 1995 -   Patrick Roy and Mike Keane to Colorado for Kovalenko, Thibault and Rucinsky

The return for Roy was seen as uneven at the time it was made, and eventually became known as one of the most one-sided deals in NHL history.

You've got it exactly right. Horrible trade.

[Larry-Launstein-Jr]

On 5/28/2018 at 8:15 PM, HabsAlways said:

There is zero concrete evidence of this "not liked" mumbo jumbo.  Who we was not liked by was Therrien who was predisposed to not liking him even before he became coach.    To say trading Subban was the right move is just drinking MB and MT's kool-aid and going along with their made up justifications for it.   There was zero on ice reason to trade PK Subban ... the only way you justify that trade is if the return fixed another hole (ie #1 C) and that the other 30 GMs all nod and think "that's a fair trade" ... I think a good chunk of them agree Habs got fleeced on a 1 for 1 PK for Weber.

 

 

What is the big deal about this? Practice and training camp altercations like this happen all the time! It's called trying to get and keep your spot on the team. Not much of an altercation.

 

[HabsAlways]

On 5/31/2018 at 10:56 AM, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

What is the big deal about this? Practice and training camp altercations like this happen all the time! It's called trying to get and keep your spot on the team. Not much of an altercation.

 

 

Practice scuffles don't just happen to PK Subban ... they've happened on many teams, many times.   Tempers flare, especially if the team is struggling.

[habs1952]

On 5/31/2018 at 0:56 PM, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

What is the big deal about this? Practice and training camp altercations like this happen all the time! It's called trying to get and keep your spot on the team. Not much of an altercation.

 

LOL....Desharnais never showed such enthusiasm when opponents put him on his butt and he had hundreds of opportunities to do so.

[Habberwacky]

Looks like something you'd see pretty much every day in a practice in the 70 and 80's, although the players today might not like it if you mess with their hairdo.

[Windoe]

I wonder what MB saw in Shea's on ice game that he liked so much more than PK's on ice game?

Weird.

[H_T_L]

8 hours ago, Windoe said:

I wonder what MB saw in Shea's on ice game that he liked so much more than PK's on ice game?

Weird.

Unfortunately his focus was off ice,, and not on ice.

[H_T_L]

So,,,,, PK is supposedly being shopped  What would it take to  get him back???

Maybe everybody that hates him going back the other way??.  

[Larry-Launstein-Jr]

On 5/23/2018 at 0:40 PM, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

With Lou becoming the new prez in Brooklyn, don't be surprised if Garth Snow gets let go in favor of Mark Hunter.

Snow is gone. As well as the head coach.

[habs1952]

5 hours ago, H_T_L said:

So,,,,, PK is supposedly being shopped  What would it take to  get him back???

Maybe everybody that hates him going back the other way??.  

I'll bet they won't take Weber back in a trade. Weber and Patches maybe.

[Habberwacky]

If PK is anything like he was when seen as a little kid in  the documentary he made I could see how he might wear people out, but what are you supposed to do when you've go multiple talents. Between that and his hefty contract that may be enough for him to be on the road again and just perhaps can't wait to get on the road again (would seem appropriate for a Nashviller). I think Lamoriello would be interested in him and Saros. Especially if he wants to keep Tavares.  He could offer a first and a second which Nashville does not have and a player or two in return solving some of the problems the Islanders are currently facing.

[BigTed3]

8 hours ago, Habberwacky said:

If PK is anything like he was when seen as a little kid in  the documentary he made I could see how he might wear people out, but what are you supposed to do when you've go multiple talents. Between that and his hefty contract that may be enough for him to be on the road again and just perhaps can't wait to get on the road again (would seem appropriate for a Nashviller). I think Lamoriello would be interested in him and Saros. Especially if he wants to keep Tavares.  He could offer a first and a second which Nashville does not have and a player or two in return solving some of the problems the Islanders are currently facing.

Can definitely see how PK's personality might wear you out, but still no reason to trade a guy who does that much for you on the ice and to treat him so disrespectfully... gotta be more there to justify that.

Doubt Nashville trades Saros... he's their goalie of the near future, with Rinne likely done in Nashville after this year. If the Preds were to deal Subban to the Isles, again, they'd likely want a young D man coming back or a good D man making less money, as well as other assets. Isles don't really have anyone who fits that bill, Leddy being the closest thing but really not that much younger than Subban. If I were Nashville, my offer would be Subban and Turris for Barzal and Leddy.