The Subban Trade

[maas_art]

4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Can definitely see how PK's personality might wear you out, but still no reason to trade a guy who does that much for you on the ice and to treat him so disrespectfully... gotta be more there to justify that.

Doubt Nashville trades Saros... he's their goalie of the near future, with Rinne likely done in Nashville after this year. If the Preds were to deal Subban to the Isles, again, they'd likely want a young D man coming back or a good D man making less money, as well as other assets. Isles don't really have anyone who fits that bill, Leddy being the closest thing but really not that much younger than Subban. If I were Nashville, my offer would be Subban and Turris for Barzal and Leddy.

Totally. I just cant see how personality plays that big of a role.  I have worked with guys I didnt really want to hang out with after work but I was happy to see their names on the schedule because they were great at their job.

As for NYI I get the sense Lou wouldnt be a Subban fan.  Heck, he doesnt let his players have facial hair!  

[Habberwacky]

Good point on Saros as I forgot Rinne is getting up there in age. Lamoriello has the picks this year to make some moves, and while I agree with most of your thoughts on it being a poor reason to trade a player it appears to happen  quite often and to some pretty talented players. Anything that can be seen as embarrassing a team is enough to send players packing.

[BigTed3]

7 minutes ago, Habberwacky said:

Good point on Saros as I forgot Rinne is getting up there in age. Lamoriello has the picks this year to make some moves, and while I agree with most of your thoughts on it being a poor reason to trade a player it appears to happen  quite often and to some pretty talented players. Anything that can be seen as embarrassing a team is enough to send players packing.

... which is why attitude, if it's nothing major (like getting arrested for something illegal or constantly missing practice because you're drunk and slept in) is sometimes a way to get a good deal on a guy in a trade. Tyler Seguin was deemed to be a problem child and got shipped out. Big steal for the Stars to get a 1C. Subban for Weber, on the ice isn't a fair trade at the point in their careers at which it happened. Phil Kessel helped the Pens to two cups after Toronto figured they couldn't deal with him.

Can you imagine if Boston said we don't like Marchand's attitude and then traded him for something like Joe Pavelski straight up? Pavelski's a good player but he's past prime and nowhere near as good as Marchand on the ice. IMO Marchand much worse attitude/character than Subban. Even Gallagher is a guy I could see rubbing some of his teammates the wrong way sometimes by being annoying or Price with his non-chalance or Galchenyuk maybe having some focus away from hockey at times or Drouin being a bit of a high-maintenance type personality. Don't know these guys in person, but I'm sure that not all players on the team get along or like the rest of them on a personal level. they deal with it, but not everyone's personality gels and that's fine, it's life. Again, IMO the difference with Subban was that Bergevin and Therrien didn't like him and made it a personal crusade to make sure they pointed out his flaws and turned others against him too.

[Noob616]

Remember at the time of the Subban and Eller trades the justification was "some players get you to the playoffs, some players get you through the playoffs?"

 

Hmm.

[East_Coast_Juggalo_13]

4 hours ago, Noob616 said:

Remember at the time of the Subban and Eller trades the justification was "some players get you to the playoffs, some players get you through the playoffs?"

 

Hmm.

Ironic isn't it?  The 2 guys Bergie traded away (Eller and Smith Pelley) scored the game tying and game winning goals  for Washington's 1st ever cup.  And of course don't forget Nashville saw their 1st cup final in team history thanks in part to P-K Subban.  Eller BTW only had 8 fewer points this year than our "#1 centre" Jonathan Drouin.  He was also 49% in the circle.  Smith Pelley mirrored his regular season goal total of 7 in 24 playoff games with the Caps.

And what did we get in return for the 2 clutch Stanley Cup Champs?  We received Stefan Matteau (Who signed as a UFA with Vegas this year.) in exchange for DSP.  And though we don't have the total return on the Lars Eller deal, thus far all we have to show for the 2-way centre is Joni Ikonen at 58th OVA in 2017.  Ikonen put up a whopping 14 pts. in 52 games in the Finnish league.

So somebody please pour me some of that Marc Bergevin/Geoff Molson micro-brew, Kool-aid so I can cheers the former Habs that are now cup champions.  You're right Bergie, some guys do get you through the play-offs, you know, the guys you keep trading away.  Keep reaching for that bargain-bin Marco.

[habs_93]

Lars Eller: Not good enough to play for the historic Montreal Canadiens and the inexplicably NHL-adjacent Michel Therrien and Marc Bergevin. But good enough to be playing in the last few minutes of a Stanley Cup-deciding game for Barry Trotz and Brian MacLellan, apparently.

[ChiLla]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/lars-eller-feels-hes-right-place-capitals/

Lars Eller after being asked how to explain his journey from Montreal to Washington: “I’m in the right place now. I’m in the right place. I felt like home in Washington almost initially from when I got there. It’s been a great place for me.”

Look at that smile and read between the lines.

[habs1952]

4 hours ago, Noob616 said:

Remember at the time of the Subban and Eller trades the justification was "some players get you to the playoffs, some players get you through the playoffs?"

 

Hmm.

Bergevin must have been thinking: "We're not making the playoffs so I don't need Lars Eller. I'll trade him for some depth on the farm team."

[maas_art]

20 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

Lars Eller: Not good enough to play for the historic Montreal Canadiens and the inexplicably NHL-adjacent Michel Therrien and Marc Bergevin. But good enough to be playing in the last few minutes of a Stanley Cup-deciding game for Barry Trotz and Brian MacLellan, apparently.

The really frustrating thing is that his first year with the team MB had:

Plekanec, Eller, Galchenyuk, DD and some 4th liners    

We played Plekanec until he was no longer a good 2 way player (but credit, we did get a decent return for him at that point, although a better GM would have flipped him earlier possibly)

We traded away Eller for fair market value (2 second rounders) in a vacuum - but considering our centre depth it was a stupid move.

We decided one of the top 2 players from his draft class was not talented enough to be a centre so we moved Galchenyuk to the wing

We moved DD for fair market value 

Now, MB did make a great move acquiring Danault, no arguments from me there,  And our 4th line centre is never really an issue but we went from having several viable centre options to basically no one.

Imagine if we had hired a proper coach (and development staff) 5 years ago.  Galchenyuk - Eller - Danault  is not a bad top 9 at all.  But instead we have guys playing out of position, guys playing over their head and guys getting their confidence beat to crap.

I remember a year or 2 before Eller was traded you could see he was just beat down.   It was obvious to everyone except maybe MT and MB that Lars Eller didnt have a great amount of confidence.  MT's solution was to ride him hard to build up that confidence but you know what? not everyone learns that way.   Being a good coach is learning how to get the most out of each player - even if that means adapting how you yourself handles them.  

 

[H_T_L]

1 hour ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

Ironic isn't it?  The 2 guys Bergie traded away (Eller and Smith Pelley) scored the game tying and game winning goals  for Washington's 1st ever cup.  And of course don't forget Nashville saw their 1st cup final in team history thanks in part to P-K Subban.  Eller BTW only had 8 fewer points this year than our "#1 centre" Jonathan Drouin.  He was also 49% in the circle.  Smith Pelley mirrored his regular season goal total of 7 in 24 playoff games with the Caps.

And what did we get in return for the 2 clutch Stanley Cup Champs?  We received Stefan Matteau (Who signed as a UFA with Vegas this year.) in exchange for DSP.  And though we don't have the total return on the Lars Eller deal, thus far all we have to show for the 2-way centre is Joni Ikonen at 58th OVA in 2017.  Ikonen put up a whopping 14 pts. in 52 games in the Finnish league.

So somebody please pour me some of that Marc Bergevin/Geoff Molson micro-brew, Kool-aid so I can cheers the former Habs that are now cup champions.  You're right Bergie, some guys do get you through the play-offs, you know, the guys you keep trading away.  Keep reaching for that bargain-bin Marco.

Losing Eller for 2 picks was not great, but at least tolerable and fair value if you had an abundance of those type of players (which we didn't). Trading them to acquire Shaw was the bigger blooper IMO.

As for DSP,,,, meh. The guy had a great playoff, but he was pretty much non existent in his stint as a Hab. He was more invisible out there then the back up goaltender on the bench.  IMO he'll be back to mediocrity come the regular season. I for one, don't miss him in the least.

To get back on topic,,,, losing both those players pales in comparison to the PK deal

[maas_art]

Just now, H_T_L said:

Losing Eller for 2 picks was not great, but at least tolerable and fair value if you had an abundance of those type of players (which we didn't). Trading them to acquire Shaw was the bigger blooper IMO.

Agreed. The trade itself (for Eller) wasnt horrendous it was just a) totally pointless and b ) based on our roster, very foolish. If we had followed it up by acquiring another centre, fine but MB seemed to think "we have danault now, we dont need lars" but we need more than 1 centre!

1 minute ago, H_T_L said:

As for DSP,,,, meh. The guy had a great playoff, but he was pretty much non existent in his stint as a Hab. He was more invisible out there then the back up goaltender on the bench.  IMO he'll be back to mediocrity come the regular season. I for one, don't miss him in the least.

Yeah, he's definitely a gamer. He is a different player in the playoffs - we saw that in Anaheim too.  The question is whether you can bury him on your roster for most of the year (4th line) and then wait for those timely goals come playoff time.     Based on our roster now, he'd have very little value. On a team like Washington he's integral because they can shelter him & then use his timely goals when they come.

[H_T_L]

4 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 

Yeah, he's definitely a gamer. He is a different player in the playoffs - we saw that in Anaheim too.  The question is whether you can bury him on your roster for most of the year (4th line) and then wait for those timely goals come playoff time.     Based on our roster now, he'd have very little value. On a team like Washington he's integral because they can shelter him & then use his timely goals when they come.

Agreed. We already have our so called designated playoff guy in Shaw. Another regular season floater is certainly not needed.  At least Shaw makes the odd appearance. 

[kinot-2]

5 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

Lars Eller: Not good enough to play for the historic Montreal Canadiens and the inexplicably NHL-adjacent Michel Therrien and Marc Bergevin. But good enough to be playing in the last few minutes of a Stanley Cup-deciding game for Barry Trotz and Brian MacLellan, apparently.

He played in all situations, PP, PK, and 5 on 5. Pretty valuable in my books.

 

[Noob616]

3 hours ago, habs_93 said:

Lars Eller: Not good enough to play for the historic Montreal Canadiens and the inexplicably NHL-adjacent Michel Therrien and Marc Bergevin. But good enough to be playing in the last few minutes of a Stanley Cup-deciding game for Barry Trotz and Brian MacLellan, apparently.

Best part is the quotes from Alzner last year about coming to Montreal to have a better shot at the cup. 

Oops. 

[Habs=stanleycup]

54 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

Best part is the quotes from Alzner last year about coming to Montreal to have a better shot at the cup. 

Oops. 

[habs1952]

7 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

He played in all situations, PP, PK, and 5 on 5. Pretty valuable in my books.

 

The Caps used him properly and put him in a position to succeed. The Habs did not. It was nice seeing Larry score the cup winning goal.

[Windoe]

I can't believe MB traded Jerabek, and now look, he's a Cup champion.  What an idiot MB is.  Clearly if we still had Jerabek we'd be Cup champions.  

I want MB to trade Pacioretty and all of our older players, and then I want those players to not win a Cup with their new team.  Get it done MB.

 

 

 

[East_Coast_Juggalo_13]

10 hours ago, H_T_L said:

Losing Eller for 2 picks was not great, but at least tolerable and fair value if you had an abundance of those type of players (which we didn't). Trading them to acquire Shaw was the bigger blooper IMO.

As for DSP,,,, meh. The guy had a great playoff, but he was pretty much non existent in his stint as a Hab. He was more invisible out there then the back up goaltender on the bench.  IMO he'll be back to mediocrity come the regular season. I for one, don't miss him in the least.

To get back on topic,,,, losing both those players pales in comparison to the PK deal

It's not the trading of DSP that bothers me so much as the fact that we have nothing to show for trading him.  As is the case with so many of MB's deals.  A lot of his bargain bin acquisitions (Semin, Hemsky, Mitchell) end in either buy out or a trade for a 3-5 round pick or an equally past his prime 4th line character guy.  The thing I fear most for MTL right now is that Marc Bergevin  is going to do "Something".  If what he does resembles some of his previous somethings, then this could definitely get worse before it gets better.  I certainly would like to see MTL keep Galchenyuk.  He should be our top centre.  When you look at the 2012 draft class, 2 men stand alone atop that draft year as the top 2 scoring leaders.  Both Filip Forsberg and Alex Galchenyuk boast 255 career points.  What gives Forsberg the edge is reaching that total in less games (331), than Galchenyuk (418).  Never the less this puts Galchenyuk in an elite class because second to those 2 men in offensive output among forwards from 2012 is Thomas Hertl with 170 pts. in 328 games.  That's a whopping 85 point differential in favor of Chucky.  I'm not opposed to the idea of keeping the group together either if they were actually utilized properly.  That line up would look something like (If I were filling in the line up card): 

Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Zadina

In my head, if you're drafting Zadina 3rd OVA, you're giving him minutes and setting him up to succeed.  Zadina has the kind of scoring touch that with those calibre of line mates, he could potentially eclipse MTL's rookie scoring record (Mats Naslund, 71 points, 82-83).

Byron, Drouin, Gallagher

I seem to recall an article that I'm unable to find about Drouin having a positive effect playing in between these 2.  Can't find it right now.

Hudon, Danault, Shaw

Danault is perfect as a 3rd liner.  Maybe Shaw can have a bounce back season.

Lehkonen, McCarron, Scherbak

I really liked the way McCarron and Scherbak looked toward the end of the season.  Certainly all 3 of these gentleman could earn a spot in camp.  

Reilly, Weber

It's almost by default that Reilly would be top pairing, but Weber could Elevate his game.

Mete, Petry

This is considered the consensus #2 pairing and most ideal for all intents and purposes.

Alzner, Juulsen

Juulsen has praised Alzner for his mentoring of the rookie this past season.  Might as well keep them together.  The only way you get rid of Alzner is if you take on a Lucic (Or something equally awful).

Spares: Deslauriers, Benn, Carr

Goalies: Price, Niemi

[maas_art]

2 hours ago, Windoe said:

I can't believe MB traded Jerabek, and now look, he's a Cup champion.  What an idiot MB is.  Clearly if we still had Jerabek we'd be Cup champions.  

I want MB to trade Pacioretty and all of our older players, and then I want those players to not win a Cup with their new team.  Get it done MB.

I know you were just messing around but FWIW i dont think Jerabek can be called a 'cup champion' - he wont have his name on the cup.   IIRC you need to have played 41 or more games in the regular season for the team that won the cup (he only played like 10 - 12 games for the caps) or at least 1 finals game.  I am pretty sure JJ only played in round 1 against the bluejackets and only a few games.  

So I dont think he gets his name on the cup - or to call himself a cup champion. 

[CANADIENS27]

15 hours ago, Windoe said:

I can't believe MB traded Jerabek, and now look, he's a Cup champion.  What an idiot MB is.  Clearly if we still had Jerabek we'd be Cup champions.  

I want MB to trade Pacioretty and all of our older players, and then I want those players to not win a Cup with their new team.  Get it done MB.

 

 

 

Fat chance of that happening.  

 

 

[CaptWelly]

I really like Eller and I am happy for him. I just wonder if the St. Louis fans are so upset at the Eller trade maybe they would of won the cup!

 

[ChiLla]

13 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

I really like Eller and I am happy for him. I just wonder if the St. Louis fans are so upset at the Eller trade maybe they would of won the cup!

 

Yeah, I'm sure they're still really attached to him after those 7 games he played for them back in 2009.

[Larry-Launstein-Jr]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:15 PM, maas_art said:

The really frustrating thing is that his first year with the team MB had:

Plekanec, Eller, Galchenyuk, DD and some 4th liners    

We played Plekanec until he was no longer a good 2 way player (but credit, we did get a decent return for him at that point, although a better GM would have flipped him earlier possibly)

We traded away Eller for fair market value (2 second rounders) in a vacuum - but considering our centre depth it was a stupid move.

We decided one of the top 2 players from his draft class was not talented enough to be a centre so we moved Galchenyuk to the wing

We moved DD for fair market value 

Now, MB did make a great move acquiring Danault, no arguments from me there,  And our 4th line centre is never really an issue but we went from having several viable centre options to basically no one.

Imagine if we had hired a proper coach (and development staff) 5 years ago.  Galchenyuk - Eller - Danault  is not a bad top 9 at all.  But instead we have guys playing out of position, guys playing over their head and guys getting their confidence beat to crap.

I remember a year or 2 before Eller was traded you could see he was just beat down.   It was obvious to everyone except maybe MT and MB that Lars Eller didnt have a great amount of confidence.  MT's solution was to ride him hard to build up that confidence but you know what? not everyone learns that way.   Being a good coach is learning how to get the most out of each player - even if that means adapting how you yourself handles them.  

 

It's called putting your players in a position. Trotz knows how to do that.