Poll: Flipping rosters with Vegas

[BigTed3]

Vegas has been outstanding this year, and while everyone has been waiting for the other shoe to drop, they've just kept going and are now in the SCF. Despite this, it's not going to stop people from asking how durable their success is. So how real do you think they are as a team? Are their assets better than ours? Keeping our management/coaches here and theirs where they are too, would you flip all the players, prospects, and picks we have for all of theirs?

If it helps you, here is Vegas' roster, draft pick list for the next few years, signed prospects, and cap situation according to capfriendly:

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/goldenknights

And their draft from last year:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00011894.html

Vote and discuss.

[habs1952]

I voted yes but I would sure love to trade management teams too. It's not like Vegas started the season winning a few games and then fell off a cliff. They've sustained their pace through to the cup finals.

[jeff33]

I think the only team I WOULDNT flip rosters with is Detroit. 

[maas_art]

I actually wouldnt flip our roster with Vegas'. 

I think we have some very good players. We also have some players who i believe are right on the verge of losing their value.   If we traded Marc Bergevin for a great GM i think we could be a very competitive team within 2 years.  But it would mean trading assets like Pacioretty, Weber, Price, Shaw and possibly Petry, Byron and others. 

With our current management i have no idea if we are better off with their roster.  I suspect we'd mess it up either way. 

[BigTed3]

13 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

I think the only team I WOULDNT flip rosters with is Detroit. 

I'l give you my answer on Vegas below, but there are a good number of teams I wouldn't flip rosters with... off the top of my head, Vancouver comes to mind; Ottawa's roster has been completely botched, they've given up futures, they don't have a clear #1 goalie, etc.; Buffalo's going to have Eichel and Dahlin, but they also have a ton of holes, probably more than us; Detroit, as you mentioned; the Hawks are an aging team, with Toews, Seabrook, Keith, etc. all past their prime and I wouldn't swap for them either; and there are other aging rosters like Dallas, Anaheim, LA, etc. where I'm not a big fan of their cores going forward but where I don't know enough about their organizational prospect depth to be able to pronounce one way or the other.

So I don't know. We all hate the job Bergevin has done, and without a doubt he's left us in a worse spot than when he took over. But we still have good players who have trade value, we have a lot of decent younger guys, and I think the grass is always going to look greener on the other side, when in reality, other teams have issues too.

In Vegas' case, they've done well, but they've also performed well above their heads. Their 1C is William Karlsson, who netted over 40 goals this year but who hadn't hit more than 9 before that. Will he score 40 next year? It's more likely he's under that number and certainly possible he doesn't even hit 30. Their D is still makeshift, with no real stars, and I'd take Price over MAF despite their past seasons. There are definitely players over their like Tuch and Theodore and Schmidt and so on that I'd love to have, but I also like Hudon and Galchenyuk and Lehkonen and Mete and Drouin and Gallagher here, and I think we can use Pacman, Price, and Weber as trade collateral to build a better group of youngsters than what Vegas has. Find a 1C, make the team faster, and add an NHL-ready player with the #3 pick (Vegas doesn't have a choice this draft) and I think we're better off.

[CANADIENS27]

Maybe if we can flip general managers and coaches, I would be in favor of it.  

 

 

 

 

[Habberwacky]

I like our roster and if we hit the injury bug again I may want a new training staff although some of our misfortune has come via concussion. Perhaps we need more James Neal's who may have refused to leave the bench. I like our roster and believe we may see Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Drouin continue to improve. If our youngsters can stick on the backend we have some talent to put around Weber and Petry. Vegas has some players I would love to have like Marchessault and Smith, but other than that I see Gallant as the only other Knight. Loved Gallant's attitude and style of play with Stevie Y and it appears to be doing him well as a coach,

[Larry-Launstein-Jr]

21 hours ago, Habberwacky said:

I like our roster and if we hit the injury bug again I may want a new training staff although some of our misfortune has come via concussion. Perhaps we need more James Neal's who may have refused to leave the bench. I like our roster and believe we may see Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Drouin continue to improve. If our youngsters can stick on the backend we have some talent to put around Weber and Petry. Vegas has some players I would love to have like Marchessault and Smith, but other than that I see Gallant as the only other Knight. Loved Gallant's attitude and style of play with Stevie Y and it appears to be doing him well as a coach,

And the Habs let Gallant walk.

[H_T_L]

In all fairness,,,, i doubt any team would deny an assistant coach a shot at a head coach position if they asked. 

[maas_art]

3 hours ago, Larry-Launstein-Jr said:

And the Habs let Gallant walk.

French name. Doesnt speak French.  Bye bye.

2 hours ago, H_T_L said:

In all fairness,,,, i doubt any team would deny an assistant coach a shot at a head coach position if they asked. 

For sure.  The problem was that he was probably already a better coach than MT at that  point (when we let him go).  Although it would have been a tough call to fire MT after going deep in the playoffs that year.

[jeff33]

On 02/06/2018 at 10:33 PM, BigTed3 said:

I'l give you my answer on Vegas below, but there are a good number of teams I wouldn't flip rosters with... off the top of my head, Vancouver comes to mind; Ottawa's roster has been completely botched, they've given up futures, they don't have a clear #1 goalie, etc.; Buffalo's going to have Eichel and Dahlin, but they also have a ton of holes, probably more than us; Detroit, as you mentioned; the Hawks are an aging team, with Toews, Seabrook, Keith, etc. all past their prime and I wouldn't swap for them either; and there are other aging rosters like Dallas, Anaheim, LA, etc. where I'm not a big fan of their cores going forward but where I don't know enough about their organizational prospect depth to be able to pronounce one way or the other.

So I don't know. We all hate the job Bergevin has done, and without a doubt he's left us in a worse spot than when he took over. But we still have good players who have trade value, we have a lot of decent younger guys, and I think the grass is always going to look greener on the other side, when in reality, other teams have issues too.

In Vegas' case, they've done well, but they've also performed well above their heads. Their 1C is William Karlsson, who netted over 40 goals this year but who hadn't hit more than 9 before that. Will he score 40 next year? It's more likely he's under that number and certainly possible he doesn't even hit 30. Their D is still makeshift, with no real stars, and I'd take Price over MAF despite their past seasons. There are definitely players over their like Tuch and Theodore and Schmidt and so on that I'd love to have, but I also like Hudon and Galchenyuk and Lehkonen and Mete and Drouin and Gallagher here, and I think we can use Pacman, Price, and Weber as trade collateral to build a better group of youngsters than what Vegas has. Find a 1C, make the team faster, and add an NHL-ready player with the #3 pick (Vegas doesn't have a choice this draft) and I think we're better off.

 

Let me be clear, im saying this in a sense of the bigger picture, as in what the potential is going forward, and what the cap realities are. 

so in that sense buffalo with eichel and dahlin trumps whatever we got. holes can be filled, superstars are very hard to come by.

vancouver has boeser and the sedins retiring. its a new day in vancouver. rather have that.

ottawa has better fwds than us and until further notice the best dman in the world.

the hawks are similar to us, with their big money locked up in the wrong places. that one I grant you but they do have kane which is an element we dont have. 

see what I mean....god , give me arizonas roster with OEL , Domi and Keller and cap space galore and Id rather start from there than have what we have, which is a roster that is fixedly mediocre

 

[BigTed3]

31 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

 

Let me be clear, im saying this in a sense of the bigger picture, as in what the potential is going forward, and what the cap realities are. 

so in that sense buffalo with eichel and dahlin trumps whatever we got. holes can be filled, superstars are very hard to come by.

vancouver has boeser and the sedins retiring. its a new day in vancouver. rather have that.

ottawa has better fwds than us and until further notice the best dman in the world.

the hawks are similar to us, with their big money locked up in the wrong places. that one I grant you but they do have kane which is an element we dont have. 

see what I mean....god , give me arizonas roster with OEL , Domi and Keller and cap space galore and Id rather start from there than have what we have, which is a roster that is fixedly mediocre

 

I get your discouragement with our team, it kills me too. But I'll bet if you survey fans of a lot of these other teams, they're upset with their management too and aren't overly optimistic. A good GM could take Price, Weber, and Pacioretty and turn them into a bunch of young assets. All three of those guys have tons of value across the league right now. I think we have a number of good young pieces (JD, AG, Mete, Hudon, Lehkonen, Juulsen, Danault, etc.) that you can build around and a number of veterans that we could trade to fill our holes. It just takes a GM who accepts that plan.

Vancouver has Boeser, but they're trying to deal their #7 pick for Hanifin if you believe the rumors, and they don't have a heck of a lot in the proven category otherwise. Elias Pettersson looks like he could be a player, but he isn't here yet. I really don't love much about the Canucks' roster right now, and I don't think Boeser is carrying a team by himself. 

I'll also disagree with Ottawa having a better group of forwards than us. Stone and Hoffman are good, yes. But they're trying to trade Hoffman. Duchene is a good asset but overrated and personally, I think Drouin and Galchenyuk are better assets than him given their ages and the fact Duchene will be a 28 year-old UFA in a year. Ryan is dead weight. Gaborik is dead weight. And the rest of what they have is a collection of terrible role players. I'll take Pacioretty, Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Hudon, Lehkonen, etc. over Stone, Hoffman, Duchene, and the crap pile. Ottawa has already traded away a ton of futures to make Duchene happen, and they have no goalie, no D after Karlsson, and no plan. Are they all in now based on Karlsson hitting free agency and the trade they made for Duchene? Or are they re-building? They're in no-man's land right now, just like us, and with less to build around at the moment.

Arizona also has a lot of really bad players. Yes, they have OEL, but that's about it. They're trying to trade Domi, they already dealt Duclair. There isn't a whole lot there. to be excited about. For a re-building team, they have a 29-year old career back-up as their starting goalie and 5 of their 7 D men from last year were 28 or older.

Chicago is in a very similar position to us, but with more bad contracts going forward. Hossa announced he's done. Kane and Toews are both signed long-term at 10.5M a year and both will be on the wrong side of 30 as of next year. Look at the Seabrook and Keith contracts. Both brutal. Crawford is 33 and coming off a career-threatening injury. Anisimov is 30 too. That roster needs to be re-built ASAP but a lot of their stars are on bad long-term deals and the relief hasn't come yet. We have bad long-term contracts with Price and Weber, but that's two compared to 4-5 with Chicago. Kane and Toews, like Weber and Price, will have trade value, but I'm not sure Seabrook and Keith have much because Chicago's waited too long to dump those guys. I'm just not that jealous about their having Kane considering everything else they have to fix.

As for Buffalo, I agree with you that Eichel and Dahlin are two guys we'll have trouble finding matches for. But again, giant hole in net and not much depth up front. An overpaid Kyle Okposo, a 35-year old Jason Pominville, and not a lot else after Eichel, ROR (whom they may trade for futures), and Reinhart. Edmonton has shown that just having a couple of stars isn't necessarily enough to be successful.

So yes, we absolutely have work to do ourselves. But I think we still have opportunity to turn three soon-to-be untradeable assets into young assets while they still have high value, and we have a good number of younger guys still in their prime to complement the assets we could bring in, not to mention our deep draft this season. So I think all told, the grass isn't greener everywhere else.

[habs1952]

2 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Arizona also has a lot of really bad players. Yes, they have OEL, but that's about it. They're trying to trade Domi, they already dealt Duclair. There isn't a whole lot there. to be excited about. For a re-building team, they have a 29-year old career back-up as their starting goalie and 5 of their 7 D men from last year were 28 or older.

 

Arizona seems to be a team that wants to relocate.

[jeff33]

30 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I get your discouragement with our team, it kills me too. But I'll bet if you survey fans of a lot of these other teams, they're upset with their management too and aren't overly optimistic. A good GM could take Price, Weber, and Pacioretty and turn them into a bunch of young assets. All three of those guys have tons of value across the league right now. I think we have a number of good young pieces (JD, AG, Mete, Hudon, Lehkonen, Juulsen, Danault, etc.) that you can build around and a number of veterans that we could trade to fill our holes. It just takes a GM who accepts that plan.

Vancouver has Boeser, but they're trying to deal their #7 pick for Hanifin if you believe the rumors, and they don't have a heck of a lot in the proven category otherwise. Elias Pettersson looks like he could be a player, but he isn't here yet. I really don't love much about the Canucks' roster right now, and I don't think Boeser is carrying a team by himself. 

I'll also disagree with Ottawa having a better group of forwards than us. Stone and Hoffman are good, yes. But they're trying to trade Hoffman. Duchene is a good asset but overrated and personally, I think Drouin and Galchenyuk are better assets than him given their ages and the fact Duchene will be a 28 year-old UFA in a year. Ryan is dead weight. Gaborik is dead weight. And the rest of what they have is a collection of terrible role players. I'll take Pacioretty, Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Hudon, Lehkonen, etc. over Stone, Hoffman, Duchene, and the crap pile. Ottawa has already traded away a ton of futures to make Duchene happen, and they have no goalie, no D after Karlsson, and no plan. Are they all in now based on Karlsson hitting free agency and the trade they made for Duchene? Or are they re-building? They're in no-man's land right now, just like us, and with less to build around at the moment.

Arizona also has a lot of really bad players. Yes, they have OEL, but that's about it. They're trying to trade Domi, they already dealt Duclair. There isn't a whole lot there. to be excited about. For a re-building team, they have a 29-year old career back-up as their starting goalie and 5 of their 7 D men from last year were 28 or older.

Chicago is in a very similar position to us, but with more bad contracts going forward. Hossa announced he's done. Kane and Toews are both signed long-term at 10.5M a year and both will be on the wrong side of 30 as of next year. Look at the Seabrook and Keith contracts. Both brutal. Crawford is 33 and coming off a career-threatening injury. Anisimov is 30 too. That roster needs to be re-built ASAP but a lot of their stars are on bad long-term deals and the relief hasn't come yet. We have bad long-term contracts with Price and Weber, but that's two compared to 4-5 with Chicago. Kane and Toews, like Weber and Price, will have trade value, but I'm not sure Seabrook and Keith have much because Chicago's waited too long to dump those guys. I'm just not that jealous about their having Kane considering everything else they have to fix.

As for Buffalo, I agree with you that Eichel and Dahlin are two guys we'll have trouble finding matches for. But again, giant hole in net and not much depth up front. An overpaid Kyle Okposo, a 35-year old Jason Pominville, and not a lot else after Eichel, ROR (whom they may trade for futures), and Reinhart. Edmonton has shown that just having a couple of stars isn't necessarily enough to be successful.

So yes, we absolutely have work to do ourselves. But I think we still have opportunity to turn three soon-to-be untradeable assets into young assets while they still have high value, and we have a good number of younger guys still in their prime to complement the assets we could bring in, not to mention our deep draft this season. So I think all told, the grass isn't greener everywhere else.

Well you did touch on the point where I would contradict myself and say I would like the essential framework of some of these teams over ours given that if I were GM I would tear down the rest and start over....however as you said and I agree, if that were the case we have some very decent trade chips and we could do a great facelift on this roster with a couple of good moves on our pricey veterans 

[Noob616]

Yes in a purely hypothetical sense. In reality no because I don't have much connection with the Vegas players and I already find my enjoyment of watching the Habs is lessened without Markov/Subban who are guys that I felt were just "Habs" through and through. Right now the team feels like a squad of anonymous mercenaries plus Price, Galchenyuk, and Gallagher who are the only players that truly feel like "Habs" right now IMO. 

I think Vegas is in a better spot than the Habs, their core is pretty solid, I don't think it's incredible and they're going to lose one of Neal or Perron but I think the Marchessault/Smith/Karlsson/Theodore/Schmidt core is pretty interesting and a good foundation to build on. I don't think those guys are better than Price/Weber but they also aren't on monster contracts on the back 9 of their career. Their prospect pool is also a lot better, Glass, Suzuki, and Brannstrom are all significantly better than any Habs prospect, we'd definitely hope Zadina's better than those three (and I think he will be), but they have three very solid blue chip prospects and the Habs will be lucky to have 1.