2019-20 State Of The Habs

[campabee82]

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

 

Yup, as Habsisme said, Markov shoots left, where we are weak - so I can understand the appeal of 1 year at league min (or close) but honestly I wouldnt do it and here's why:

There's a legitimate chance that Andrei Markov would be one of our top 3 LHD for next season.  That should make signing him a no brainer, right?  Wrong.  If Andrei Markov (whom I love, by the way) is one of our top 3 LHD then we are in trouble.    
 
We need to solve the problem at LD with someone better than anyone we already have (Mete, Kulak, Chiarot etc) not with someone who slots into the 3rd pair or worse. 

I agree about not signing him if he was going to slot in the 3rd pairing but also have a feeling Markov would be better than at least 2 of them making signing him and trading one of the others an option however it's not really a worthwhile venture if we are just losing him next season anyway. IF he makes us better then yes if he just keeps the status quo then no

[habs1952]

5 hours ago, habsisme said:

 

He shoots left. I would sign him to a 1 year 1 million dollar deal. There's no risk and we don't have an answer at LD right now. He could probably help us on the powerplay and who knows. He's certainly not better than Weber or Petry

And Markov isn't the answer either. I've got cold molasses that moves faster than Markov.

[26NCounting]

Personally I really like the Chiarot singing, he may not be an offensive juggernaut but he brings a toughness we really lack.  He isn't scared to take the body and clear the front of the net something we have sorely lacked the last couple of years.  If you watch the games the vast majority of the goals against Price are screened shots because our D is too small and too weak to move the players.  I am not saying he will solve all our problems but I would definitely put him above Mete and Kulak.

Other than Gardiner who I think is in dream land when it comes to contract demands, there are not a lot of Top pairing D men available

 

[CANADIENS27]

22 hours ago, maas_art said:

 

Yup, as Habsisme said, Markov shoots left, where we are weak - so I can understand the appeal of 1 year at league min (or close) but honestly I wouldnt do it and here's why:

There's a legitimate chance that Andrei Markov would be one of our top 3 LHD for next season.  That should make signing him a no brainer, right?  Wrong.  If Andrei Markov (whom I love, by the way) is one of our top 3 LHD then we are in trouble.    
 
We need to solve the problem at LD with someone better than anyone we already have (Mete, Kulak, Chiarot etc) not with someone who slots into the 3rd pair or worse. 

I forgot about Markov being lefthanded and his knee issues.  But is Bergevin willing to find a top lefthanded defenseman?  

 

 

 

 

[maas_art]

1 hour ago, CANADIENS27 said:

But is Bergevin willing to find a top lefthanded defenseman?  

Willing? Probably.  Wiling to pay the price? not sure.    And the thing is, in fairness to MB we dont know what the ask is.  If Philly wont trade us Sanheim unless we include Poehling or Suzuki, do you do it?   Or what if Edmonton wants Romanov as part of the deal for Klefbom?

Im not letting MB off the hook because we have one huge, clear, gaping hole in the roster and he needs to fix it, but I also think if he just jumped to do so, many of us may not be happy with what went the other way. 

[ramcharger440]

2 hours ago, maas_art said:

Willing? Probably.  Wiling to pay the price? not sure.    And the thing is, in fairness to MB we dont know what the ask is.  If Philly wont trade us Sanheim unless we include Poehling or Suzuki, do you do it?   Or what if Edmonton wants Romanov as part of the deal for Klefbom?

Im not letting MB off the hook because we have one huge, clear, gaping hole in the roster and he needs to fix it, but I also think if he just jumped to do so, many of us may not be happy with what went the other way. 

100%

[26NCounting]

I agree, I don't want to move any of our top end prospects for an older rental.  I believe my dismal outlook on the habs is a direct result of MB's bungling.  That offer sheet of Aho was a complete joke and made the whole organization look bad, the fact he can't fill the hole in our line up a blind man could see just baffles me.  Why is it that it seems only us fans see MB as a complete disaster as a GM.  

[maas_art]

5 hours ago, 26NCounting said:

I agree, I don't want to move any of our top end prospects for an older rental.  I believe my dismal outlook on the habs is a direct result of MB's bungling.  That offer sheet of Aho was a complete joke and made the whole organization look bad, the fact he can't fill the hole in our line up a blind man could see just baffles me.  Why is it that it seems only us fans see MB as a complete disaster as a GM.  

Im not sure if its about not seeing it, thinking things will clear on their own, or just not wanting to make waves but MB has shown this to be his single biggest downfall during his tenure.

Everyone in the world could see:

- Laval was a mess and we ruining virtually every prospect we had but it took him, what, 5-6 years to correct this?
- Therrien was Therrible.  Years 1-2 were ok in terms of bringing in energy and such but after that? Not good. Everyone could see it. Why couldnt Marc?
- Centre was a problem for decades. Again he took 6+ years to fix this.
- He traded PK for Weber, because he felt like we were 'ready to contend' (what??) but then didnt fill the other holes even though everyone else could see we had several.

Now, we are entering our 3rd year without a legitimate top pairing LH dman.   Will he fix it?  Will he "hope" someone can step up?  Time will tell but im not hopeful.  Guys like Price and Weber seem to be pressuring him so hopefully he'll get the hint that you cant wait for the whole roster to be ready because by then other guys will be past their prime. 

[ramcharger440]

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Im not sure if its about not seeing it, thinking things will clear on their own, or just not wanting to make waves but MB has shown this to be his single biggest downfall during his tenure.

Everyone in the world could see:

- Laval was a mess and we ruining virtually every prospect we had but it took him, what, 5-6 years to correct this?
- Therrien was Therrible.  Years 1-2 were ok in terms of bringing in energy and such but after that? Not good. Everyone could see it. Why couldnt Marc?
- Centre was a problem for decades. Again he took 6+ years to fix this.
- He traded PK for Weber, because he felt like we were 'ready to contend' (what??) but then didnt fill the other holes even though everyone else could see we had several.

Now, we are entering our 3rd year without a legitimate top pairing LH dman.   Will he fix it?  Will he "hope" someone can step up?  Time will tell but im not hopeful.  Guys like Price and Weber seem to be pressuring him so hopefully he'll get the hint that you cant wait for the whole roster to be ready because by then other guys will be past their prime. 

once again i agree 100% it is plain as day and yet we will probably end up with the same issue yet again. cautious is good too much is equally bad.

[caperns61]

5 hours ago, maas_art said:

Now, we are entering our 3rd year without a legitimate top pairing LH dman.   Will he fix it?  Will he "hope" someone can step up?  Time will tell but im not hopeful.  Guys like Price and Weber seem to be pressuring him so hopefully he'll get the hint that you cant wait for the whole roster to be ready because by then other guys will be past their prime. 

If we had a similiar season last year as the year before I dont think this would be an issue. This time last year we wanted to get rid of everybody and start from scratch. Certainly we did not have to. Now this year everyone wants to give away our future because they think all we lack in a LD. I admit it is our weakest spot right now, but i for one would not give up our future to fill that hole yet. Our center position looks good because of our young players in Poeling, Suziki and KK, along with DOMI. Let give the dee a chance, We have a good looking young group on the right side in Julsen, Brooks and Fleury. Maybe if we get Romanov in a year. Mete Takes a jump to another level. Unless its Petry, Weber or Droiun for a young LHD dee, i dont want to move any of our young prospects. 

[CaptWelly]

3 hours ago, caperns61 said:

If we had a similiar season last year as the year before I dont think this would be an issue. This time last year we wanted to get rid of everybody and start from scratch. Certainly we did not have to. Now this year everyone wants to give away our future because they think all we lack in a LD. I admit it is our weakest spot right now, but i for one would not give up our future to fill that hole yet. Our center position looks good because of our young players in Poeling, Suziki and KK, along with DOMI. Let give the dee a chance, We have a good looking young group on the right side in Julsen, Brooks and Fleury. Maybe if we get Romanov in a year. Mete Takes a jump to another level. Unless its Petry, Weber or Droiun for a young LHD dee, i dont want to move any of our young prospects. 

I agree 100% with this. We are at a good point right now no reason to sell off areas of strength when the future is looking strong. Price Weber and Petry will be good for a while still I don't see the rush. If we had done like a lot wanted a total blow up we could be ten years off. Those only work if you get a McDavid or something (oh wait what has Edmonton done?). I think a little more patience is needed.

[CANADIENS27]

MB traded Subban for Weber because we were ready to contend?  Is anyone sure it wasn't because Therrien and Bergevin disliked him and were looking for an excuse to trade him?  

 

 

[jeff33]

2 hours ago, CANADIENS27 said:

MB traded Subban for Weber because we were ready to contend?  Is anyone sure it wasn't because Therrien and Bergevin disliked him and were looking for an excuse to trade him?  

 

 

No, everyone is sure thats EXACTLY why lol...

however, the logic seems to have been that its a wash on the ice, we had been to ECF with PK twice, and the final element missing was grit and character and leadership instead of fancy pants fedoras and spineramas aka being a selfish primadonna as they saw him

and hey , look at the results! ....oh wait

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, jeff33 said:

No, everyone is sure thats EXACTLY why lol...

however, the logic seems to have been that its a wash on the ice, we had been to ECF with PK twice, and the final element missing was grit and character and leadership instead of fancy pants fedoras and spineramas aka being a selfish primadonna as they saw him

and hey , look at the results! ....oh wait

Yep.....Weber can't do spineramas! 

[campabee82]

13 hours ago, jeff33 said:

No, everyone is sure thats EXACTLY why lol...

however, the logic seems to have been that its a wash on the ice, we had been to ECF with PK twice, and the final element missing was grit and character and leadership instead of fancy pants fedoras and spineramas aka being a selfish primadonna as they saw him

and hey , look at the results! ....oh wait

While I agree with pretty much everyone else here on the trade, I also think as a team you do need grit and leadership in you defensive unit. I don't think giving up talent on PK's level is the right way to get it.

[ahmedou]

Their stubbornness to be a team who causes/causing surprises... Without applying a real contending structure. Mind-boggling... In hockey words, they forget how and what's the hockey abc basis. To be champions by improvising. Keep dreaming...

[arpem-can]

10 hours ago, campabee82 said:

While I agree with pretty much everyone else here on the trade, I also think as a team you do need grit and leadership in you defensive unit. I don't think giving up talent on PK's level is the right way to get it.

   I don't exactly think PK has lit it  up since he left Montreal and suddenly he's with yet another team ...production -wise it's about even in ppg ( Weber /PK ) ….what Montreal got back was leadership and grit , a 100 mph + slap shot ,a bigger and a tougher team first guy ( albeit older )  to protect Carey ...I was a PK fan but I would make this trade again in a heartbeat ….this protection and grit is as well what I believe the Chiarot acquisition is all about ...even though I liked Benn I think I'm going to like Chiarot better for those other qualities  

[CaptWelly]

13 hours ago, arpem-can said:

   I don't exactly think PK has lit it  up since he left Montreal and suddenly he's with yet another team ...production -wise it's about even in ppg ( Weber /PK ) ….what Montreal got back was leadership and grit , a 100 mph + slap shot ,a bigger and a tougher team first guy ( albeit older )  to protect Carey ...I was a PK fan but I would make this trade again in a heartbeat ….this protection and grit is as well what I believe the Chiarot acquisition is all about ...even though I liked Benn I think I'm going to like Chiarot better for those other qualities  

I fully agree with this also. Within 2-3 years there will be a reason to trade PK again. The players themselves voted him most overrated and if he was truly a top 5 d in the league with no baggage than a team wouldn't just do a salary dump unless maybe it was for McCinnon or McDavid , Duchene really a #2 center?

[RyderRocks73]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:29 AM, 26NCounting said:

I agree, I don't want to move any of our top end prospects for an older rental.  I believe my dismal outlook on the habs is a direct result of MB's bungling.  That offer sheet of Aho was a complete joke and made the whole organization look bad, the fact he can't fill the hole in our line up a blind man could see just baffles me.  Why is it that it seems only us fans see MB as a complete disaster as a GM.  

The bid for Aho was smart. Canes aren't known for spending money and they'd just taken on the full value of Marleau's contract to buy it out. Bergevin added more dead space to that. They matched because their organization is dead if they don't pony up and spend with the big boys, but Carolina is losing money this year; although, kudos to them for not Melnyking their players. 

There was a chance that we would get Sebastian Aho on a contract that wouldn't screw our cap and that's something. In 5 years he walks to FA and will be worth possibly more than 8 AAV. We'll see where we both are in 5 years.

[arpem-can]

6 hours ago, RyderRocks73 said:

The bid for Aho was smart. Canes aren't known for spending money and they'd just taken on the full value of Marleau's contract to buy it out. Bergevin added more dead space to that. They matched because their organization is dead if they don't pony up and spend with the big boys, but Carolina is losing money this year; although, kudos to them for not Melnyking their players. 

There was a chance that we would get Sebastian Aho on a contract that wouldn't screw our cap and that's something. In 5 years he walks to FA and will be worth possibly more than 8 AAV. We'll see where we both are in 5 years.

  Lets face if Montreal gave up 4 1st rounders and say 10 million bucks for 7 years to get Aho everybody would be calling for Bergevin's head more than usual ….I always saw this offer sheet differently . Bergy probably knew Carolina would match but now a competitor has to spend and not do a bridge contract and maintain control over an asset . In 5 years this Finn becomes available again to the NHL at large . All I can think of now is that Bergy must get Domi signed to term before next year runs out  assuming he has numbers like last year .

[tony5775]

Should of made that offer to Ivan Provorov, instead of Aho. MB just likes seeing his name in the news. 

[ChiLla]

3 hours ago, arpem-can said:

  Lets face if Montreal gave up 4 1st rounders and say 10 million bucks for 7 years to get Aho everybody would be calling for Bergevin's head more than usual ….I always saw this offer sheet differently . Bergy probably knew Carolina would match but now a competitor has to spend and not do a bridge contract and maintain control over an asset . In 5 years this Finn becomes available again to the NHL at large . All I can think of now is that Bergy must get Domi signed to term before next year runs out  assuming he has numbers like last year .

Yeah, no way I'm giving up 4 firsts for Aho (or any other RFA this year). I think the criticism was based on Bergevin not being willing to go up another compensation tier (2 firsts, 1 second, and 1 third rounder I believe), but the difference in signing bonuses due within the first 12 months would have been negligible anyway. The whole offer sheet was based on the idea of Dundon not being willing or able to match from a financial perspective, he was though and that's that. Another 2 million wouldn't have tipped the scales.

[maas_art]

2 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Yeah, no way I'm giving up 4 firsts for Aho (or any other RFA this year). I think the criticism was based on Bergevin not being willing to go up another compensation tier (2 firsts, 1 second, and 1 third rounder I believe), but the difference in signing bonuses due within the first 12 months would have been negligible anyway. The whole offer sheet was based on the idea of Dundon not being willing or able to match from a financial perspective, he was though and that's that. Another 2 million wouldn't have tipped the scales.

This.

Look at all the offer sheets that have been matched. The only time they are not is if there's a total overpayment for a player.  Would you trade 1, 2 & 3 for Aho? All day & twice on sunday.  Would you trade 1+1+2+3? yup.   But would you trade 4 x 1st?  Probably not.  Unless its a generational talent (Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid) I dont think there's any players you make that move for.

So sure, we could have put in a huge offer for him & hurt ourselves in the long run.    

And I agree with you, bumping up the money a little & adding the extra 1st wouldnt have made any difference.  The only think MB & co were gambling on was the money owned in the first 12 months.   It would have been roughly the same in either case.

I suspect they knew it was probably going to be matched but whats the harm in trying? Even if there was a 10% chance.. its worth it.   I wouldnt be surprised if Aho's agent said he didnt think Dundon would match either just to get it done. 

[Windoe]

On 8/12/2019 at 7:25 AM, CaptWelly said:

I fully agree with this also. Within 2-3 years there will be a reason to trade PK again. The players themselves voted him most overrated and if he was truly a top 5 d in the league with no baggage than a team wouldn't just do a salary dump unless maybe it was for McCinnon or McDavid , Duchene really a #2 center?

I agree as well

[Windoe]

20 hours ago, arpem-can said:

  Lets face if Montreal gave up 4 1st rounders and say 10 million bucks for 7 years to get Aho everybody would be calling for Bergevin's head more than usual ….I always saw this offer sheet differently . Bergy probably knew Carolina would match but now a competitor has to spend and not do a bridge contract and maintain control over an asset . In 5 years this Finn becomes available again to the NHL at large . All I can think of now is that Bergy must get Domi signed to term before next year runs out  assuming he has numbers like last year .

I agree with this as well...if Carolina couldn't match, we would have gotten a very good player at an amazing price.  Odds of it working out for us were low, but not zero.  Worth the shot.