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2019-20 State Of The Habs


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18 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I wasn't hating on MB I can't say I am a fan of his but also don't hate him. I was just saying that his excuse for not landing tallent in a trade or FA is always the same "Its too expensive" his words not mine. If he is that concerned about money when he always has 6-8 mil left every season one has to wonder just how willing is Mr. Molson to spend to the cap? I like his waiver pickups and PTO pickups some of his trades lately have worked out great he seems to be figuring out a lot over the last 2 or 3 seasons in the draft and everywhere that he should have in his first 2 or 3 years. And it seems like he may have actually figured out how to build a contender lately but he now needs to figure out how to spend the last little bit that pushes them from playoff possibility to true contender year in and year out.

  I hear you man but I don't believe that deal has come along yet and if it does he'll at least have some coin to work with (presently standing at about $ 4,000,000 ) ..Bergevin has shown he has no problem pulling off a blockbuster or even highly unpopular trade . If Laine was available and a fit for the Habs I'm sure he would have pulled the trigger with a roster player , a prospect and a pick (s) . But I don't believe he was available any more than Panarin or Duschene were ...Duschene used Montreal for leverage but only kicked a tire to make it look good . I guess the bottom line is that if he does get a player he highly covets it'll be a bonus because  he'll want to be in Montreal and won't nix the trade . Bergevin has stuck to his plan of not mortgaging the future and now it's starting to pay off . He makes the final decision and takes the heat but that decision is based on information  from various people of key positions within the organization so to me he never really acts alone completely  .

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1 hour ago, arpem-can said:

  I feel the need to address the criticism Bergevin gets about having cap space left over ...as has been stated by him and Molson the team is ok with spending it all ...it's not like another $4 million saved for the piggy bank will make or break Molson's financial bottom line  ...the right deal hasn't come along to utilize that space but it never hurts to have it in reserve ..not all players want to come to Montreal for whatever their reasons but being in the spotlight all the time might be one of them ..not all players are like Domi who just this summer was trying to sell players on how great it is in Montreal " Just come for one day " he said ....I'm not a Bergevin hater ...all GMs make crappy moves from time to time (  Alzner ) but not all GMs can say they claimed a Byron off waivers , or stole a Danault for spare parts , or grabbed a Tatar and Suzuki and a pick for Pacs or an Armia , or saw Domi's potential . If Drouin has a good year you can add him to the list and that would be after a career high in points .I've always like the Weber trade . They've drafted centres when they needed them ( "because they don't grow on trees" ) and LHD when they needed them and now have a pretty good  5th or 6th ranked pipeline going on . Parity is the name of the game now . No one would have guessed St. Louis would have won the Cup when they were dead last in the league last January . Teams need an identity to play for each other ...I think Montreal has one of those teams and are capable of much better things going forward . I believe this will be a good year barring key leng

thy injuries .

Their slogan: Excuses everywhere :D

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2 hours ago, arpem-can said:

  I hear you man but I don't believe that deal has come along yet and if it does he'll at least have some coin to work with (presently standing at about $ 4,000,000 ) ..Bergevin has shown he has no problem pulling off a blockbuster or even highly unpopular trade . If Laine was available and a fit for the Habs I'm sure he would have pulled the trigger with a roster player , a prospect and a pick (s) . But I don't believe he was available any more than Panarin or Duschene were ...Duschene used Montreal for leverage but only kicked a tire to make it look good . I guess the bottom line is that if he does get a player he highly covets it'll be a bonus because  he'll want to be in Montreal and won't nix the trade . Bergevin has stuck to his plan of not mortgaging the future and now it's starting to pay off . He makes the final decision and takes the heat but that decision is based on information  from various people of key positions within the organization so to me he never really acts alone completely  .

Yeah but He could have went 1.5 mil more on the Aho sheet and probably would have gotten him for 4 1sts. 1.5-2 mil may have been the difference in Duchene signing as well as he said it was Montreal and Nashville right up until the end and could have gone either way. Gardiner may have signed if we had offered 5-6 mil for 2 years. 3 game changing players all that probably would be with the Habs over a difference of probably 1 - 3 Mil. Fans may not have been happy with the cost but if it got us onto the playoffs they would have forgiven MB. Just my opinion but to me it is clear we could have and should have taken a bigger risk and spent a little more

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9 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Yeah but He could have went 1.5 mil more on the Aho sheet and probably would have gotten him for 4 1sts. 1.5-2 mil may have been the difference in Duchene signing as well as he said it was Montreal and Nashville right up until the end and could have gone either way. Gardiner may have signed if we had offered 5-6 mil for 2 years. 3 game changing players all that probably would be with the Habs over a difference of probably 1 - 3 Mil. Fans may not have been happy with the cost but if it got us onto the playoffs they would have forgiven MB. Just my opinion but to me it is clear we could have and should have taken a bigger risk and spent a little more

 Guess we'll see how the season goes with this club and whether or not there's still a move on the horizon or whether this team can be enough for a run ….I have a feeling Carolina would have matched anyway from their comments about being surprised the offer wasn't more …Gardiner turned down a better deal from Montreal than he took with Carolina for 1 more year and almost the same money ..so Montreal as one would expect moved on ….and frankly I don't think Duschene is worth 10 million per with term on a Habs team that currently has it's highest paid forward at 5.5 for 4 more years  ...lets not forget if Domi has another outstanding year he'll have to get paid next year as well and might take up that extra 4 mill all by himself 

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9 hours ago, arpem-can said:

  I hear you man but I don't believe that deal has come along yet and if it does he'll at least have some coin to work with (presently standing at about $ 4,000,000 )

Actually our cap is around $6.4m free.  We sent down Alzner and Weise which took a couple of million off. 

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6 hours ago, arpem-can said:

 Guess we'll see how the season goes with this club and whether or not there's still a move on the horizon or whether this team can be enough for a run ….I have a feeling Carolina would have matched anyway from their comments about being surprised the offer wasn't more …Gardiner turned down a better deal from Montreal than he took with Carolina for 1 more year and almost the same money ..so Montreal as one would expect moved on ….and frankly I don't think Duschene is worth 10 million per with term on a Habs team that currently has it's highest paid forward at 5.5 for 4 more years  ...lets not forget if Domi has another outstanding year he'll have to get paid next year as well and might take up that extra 4 mill all by himself 

 

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6 hours ago, arpem-can said:

 Guess we'll see how the season goes with this club and whether or not there's still a move on the horizon or whether this team can be enough for a run ….I have a feeling Carolina would have matched anyway from their comments about being surprised the offer wasn't more …Gardiner turned down a better deal from Montreal than he took with Carolina for 1 more year and almost the same money ..so Montreal as one would expect moved on ….and frankly I don't think Duschene is worth 10 million per with term on a Habs team that currently has it's highest paid forward at 5.5 for 4 more years  ...lets not forget if Domi has another outstanding year he'll have to get paid next year as well and might take up that extra 4 mill all by himself 

But then next year Alzner is likely bought out, Weise, Thompson, Peca, Kinkade and Folin will all probably be gone FA to make room for some young guys. Mete may be gone too if he doesn't start getting some goals. So that gives us like 4 mil plus 2.5ish for Alzner 700k for Folin, 2+ for Weise, 1.3 for Peca 1.0 Thompson Kinkade 1.75 and possibly 700k for Mete. Grand total with this year's 4 mil is about 13.25-14.95 Mil only ones I see us resigning from that group is Domi at about 7 and Mete may get 1.5 leaving a surplus again next year of around 4.5-6 mil again these are rough numbers but my point is still valid

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9 hours ago, campabee82 said:

But then next year Alzner is likely bought out, Weise, Thompson, Peca, Kinkade and Folin will all probably be gone FA to make room for some young guys. Mete may be gone too if he doesn't start getting some goals. So that gives us like 4 mil plus 2.5ish for Alzner 700k for Folin, 2+ for Weise, 1.3 for Peca 1.0 Thompson Kinkade 1.75 and possibly 700k for Mete. Grand total with this year's 4 mil is about 13.25-14.95 Mil only ones I see us resigning from that group is Domi at about 7 and Mete may get 1.5 leaving a surplus again next year of around 4.5-6 mil again these are rough numbers but my point is still valid

  so next year is looking good cap -wise and this season is just starting and trades might still happen ...Montreal isn't the only team with cap room at this point and other than the Aho offer sheet we'll never know how negotiations went or how serious they were with the UFA s this summer  

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46 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

  so next year is looking good cap -wise and this season is just starting and trades might still happen ...Montreal isn't the only team with cap room at this point and other than the Aho offer sheet we'll never know how negotiations went or how serious they were with the UFA s this summer  

That's kind of my point using Domi as an excuse as to why we didn't use the excess cap makes no sense. Also if we were more serious about going after those FA don't you think we could have landed at least 1 and not had to pay Chiarot 3.5 instead of getting one of the players we need to fill a hole? Let's face it Chiarot didn't fill a need, Cousins didn't fill a need, Varone didn't fill a need, Thompson no longer fills a need, Folin no longer fills a need, Reilly doesn't fill a need why were these guys extended, traded for or signed? If we had gotten a 1LHD Mete, Kulak would slot back and we have AHL players to fill injury spots. If we had gotten Aho or Duchene or another top 6 RW our roster looks much better. If we hadn't resigned Thompson, Evans or Poehling take that spot easy. Without Folin we have guys to fill that spot. My point is we had the space and prospects and picks this year to do serious damage but failed miserably and that's on MB. Sure some FA don't want to sign here but not all and players traded for simply have no choice if they don't have a NTC or NMC. So that's on MB as the GM as well. 

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3 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

That's kind of my point using Domi as an excuse as to why we didn't use the excess cap makes no sense. Also if we were more serious about going after those FA don't you think we could have landed at least 1 and not had to pay Chiarot 3.5 instead of getting one of the players we need to fill a hole? Let's face it Chiarot didn't fill a need, Cousins didn't fill a need, Varone didn't fill a need, Thompson no longer fills a need, Folin no longer fills a need, Reilly doesn't fill a need why were these guys extended, traded for or signed? If we had gotten a 1LHD Mete, Kulak would slot back and we have AHL players to fill injury spots. If we had gotten Aho or Duchene or another top 6 RW our roster looks much better. If we hadn't resigned Thompson, Evans or Poehling take that spot easy. Without Folin we have guys to fill that spot. My point is we had the space and prospects and picks this year to do serious damage but failed miserably and that's on MB. Sure some FA don't want to sign here but not all and players traded for simply have no choice if they don't have a NTC or NMC. So that's on MB as the GM as well. 

I will also say this, there were guys available for decent prices as well at the LHD that we could have and should have gotten by offering more like Maata and  Da Haan to name a couple. If we had offered say a 1st and Juulsen for Ghost or whatever it took we may have gotten him and we would have been that much better but we probably wouldn't have a lot of cap space left. I will say that I personally always liked the Kinkade signing I thought he would work out great as long as he wasn't expected to split the season or be asked to be the starter. I just wish MB would take more of a risk when looking to fill a need then he seems to be overpay if you have to but fill that hole now rather than trying to wait for one of your prospects to MAYBE eventually step up. Winning used to be synonymous with the Habs now it's more like losing or not making the playoffs is acceptable because of we can use the excuse that league parity makes winning much harder. 

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5 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Sure some FA don't want to sign here but not all and players traded for simply have no choice if they don't have a NTC or NMC. So that's on MB as the GM as well. 

Except ... trades aren't free.    Who do you give up to get that top LD?  Most teams would be asking for those same top prospects (JK, Suzuki, Poehling, Fleury, Brook) in return.    

Duchene used Habs as leverage, and Habs media jumped on "he wants to play here, MB failed to get him"

Aho did the same ... MB played a game of chicken where if by some miracle Canes didn't match he wasn't sacrificing too many picks.    Sure he could have gone one step up and risked giving up more but I think it was a calculated gamble.

Gardiner wanted term ... we didn't want to give him term what with his injuries and our future D prospects.   In fact MOST teams didn't want to give him term.

We go through this every year ... there's UFA's and Habs fans all think every one of them is lined up to sign here and we somehow missed out.   Most aren't interested ... its a city with higher taxes, a different language (in their perception) and culture.    Oh and it's Canada the land of Snow.

As far as trades ... sure, there's some deals here and there we could make ... but every trade you have to give up something in order to get something.

 

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1 minute ago, campabee82 said:

I will also say this, there were guys available for decent prices as well at the LHD that we could have and should have gotten by offering more like Maata and  Da Haan to name a couple. If we had offered say a 1st and Juulsen for Ghost or whatever it took we may have gotten him and we would have been that much better but we probably wouldn't have a lot of cap space left. I will say that I personally always liked the Kinkade signing I thought he would work out great as long as he wasn't expected to split the season or be asked to be the starter. I just wish MB would take more of a risk when looking to fill a need then he seems to be overpay if you have to but fill that hole now rather than trying to wait for one of your prospects to MAYBE eventually step up. Winning used to be synonymous with the Habs now it's more like losing or not making the playoffs is acceptable because of we can use the excuse that league parity makes winning much harder. 

A 1st and Juulsen in my opinion is too much for Ghost.   He's horrible defensively.  The reverse of that is I don't think Flyers would ever trade Ghost for a 1st and a banged up Juulsen.     They'd want somebody of "equal" value in their minds and some extra ... to the Flyers he's their top LD ... that's requires a top 6-9 forward or top RD.

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2 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Except ... trades aren't free.    Who do you give up to get that top LD?  Most teams would be asking for those same top prospects (JK, Suzuki, Poehling, Fleury, Brook) in return.    

Duchene used Habs as leverage, and Habs media jumped on "he wants to play here, MB failed to get him"

Aho did the same ... MB played a game of chicken where if by some miracle Canes didn't match he wasn't sacrificing too many picks.    Sure he could have gone one step up and risked giving up more but I think it was a calculated gamble.

Gardiner wanted term ... we didn't want to give him term what with his injuries and our future D prospects.   In fact MOST teams didn't want to give him term.

We go through this every year ... there's UFA's and Habs fans all think every one of them is lined up to sign here and we somehow missed out.   Most aren't interested ... its a city with higher taxes, a different language (in their perception) and culture.    Oh and it's Canada the land of Snow.

As far as trades ... sure, there's some deals here and there we could make ... but every trade you have to give up something in order to get something.

 

To get a 1 LHD and fill a major hole absolutely I would give up anyone of them plus a pick to make the team better.

IF Aho and or Duchene did use the Habs as leverage then who let them? That would be MB! 

I am not upset about passing on Gardner so much was just part of the example.

Yes some don't want to play in Montreal but not all feel that way.

Yes you always have to give up something even if you have to overpay with picks is filling the hole not worth it to make the team better or is keeping the status quo better?

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5 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

A 1st and Juulsen in my opinion is too much for Ghost.   He's horrible defensively.  The reverse of that is I don't think Flyers would ever trade Ghost for a 1st and a banged up Juulsen.     They'd want somebody of "equal" value in their minds and some extra ... to the Flyers he's their top LD ... that's requires a top 6-9 forward or top RD.

Juulsen wasn't hurt during the summer he was training and expected to return without issues. If that's the case then you send them Drouin +  or Petry +. My point is even if you have to overpay a bit filling the hole should be the focus

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3 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

To get a 1 LHD and fill a major hole absolutely I would give up anyone of them plus a pick to make the team better.

IF Aho and or Duchene did use the Habs as leverage then who let them? That would be MB! 

I

Sure but there's not many LHD out there I'd give up our core prospects to get.

As to Aho/Duchene ... thats not on MB, thats on the Media who perpetuate this notion that the Habs are the #1 desired team to play for ... that was true maybe 30 years ago, not so much anymore.

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2 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Juulsen wasn't hurt during the summer he was training and expected to return without issues. If that's the case then you send them Drouin +  or Petry +. My point is even if you have to overpay a bit filling the hole should be the focus

And no, Juulsen's future was very much in doubt up until training camp when he was cleared to play.

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2 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Sure but there's not many LHD out there I'd give up our core prospects to get.

As to Aho/Duchene ... thats not on MB, thats on the Media who perpetuate this notion that the Habs are the #1 desired team to play for ... that was true maybe 30 years ago, not so much anymore.

But isn't it MB's job to know whether they really want to sign here or not? And if he knew Aho was using him as leverage why even give him the offersheet? Ignorance isn't an excuse for not doing your job.

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Except ... trades aren't free.    Who do you give up to get that top LD?  Most teams would be asking for those same top prospects (JK, Suzuki, Poehling, Fleury, Brook) in return.    

Duchene used Habs as leverage, and Habs media jumped on "he wants to play here, MB failed to get him"

Aho did the same ... MB played a game of chicken where if by some miracle Canes didn't match he wasn't sacrificing too many picks.    Sure he could have gone one step up and risked giving up more but I think it was a calculated gamble.

Gardiner wanted term ... we didn't want to give him term what with his injuries and our future D prospects.   In fact MOST teams didn't want to give him term.

We go through this every year ... there's UFA's and Habs fans all think every one of them is lined up to sign here and we somehow missed out.   Most aren't interested ... its a city with higher taxes, a different language (in their perception) and culture.    Oh and it's Canada the land of Snow.

As far as trades ... sure, there's some deals here and there we could make ... but every trade you have to give up something in order to get something.

 

  agree with this post ...there seems to be distinctly 2 different approaches in evaluating Bergevin….it remains that we have no idea what other teams are asking in return for any trade that might have been discussed ...it also remains that most of Montreal's draft picks in the last 2 or 3 years are still  owned and next year is another pile of picks and that the philosophy has been  to build from within ...it remains to be seen whether any of these stockpiled picks will be used in a future trade if the right circumstances present themselves . It remains unknown why Montreal with it's executive branch input about anything that has to do with roster concerns does anything one way or the other because we're not privy to that information . I'm sure if we did know what went on behind the scenes we'd change our minds about a few things or people . Bergevin takes the heat because he's the one on the phone trying to make something happen that probably 95% of the time he and the executive group agrees on .

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44 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

  agree with this post ...there seems to be distinctly 2 different approaches in evaluating Bergevin….it remains that we have no idea what other teams are asking in return for any trade that might have been discussed ...it also remains that most of Montreal's draft picks in the last 2 or 3 years are still  owned and next year is another pile of picks and that the philosophy has been  to build from within ...it remains to be seen whether any of these stockpiled picks will be used in a future trade if the right circumstances present themselves . It remains unknown why Montreal with it's executive branch input about anything that has to do with roster concerns does anything one way or the other because we're not privy to that information . I'm sure if we did know what went on behind the scenes we'd change our minds about a few things or people . Bergevin takes the heat because he's the one on the phone trying to make something happen that probably 95% of the time he and the executive group agrees on .

Like I said in the first post I am neither for or against MB. Management has done some really questionable things in my opinion but then they have also do some really great things and the team looks 100% better now then it did after the first 4 years MB has been GM. My only issue is there seems to be a lack of let's call it a lack of drive for lack of a better word. They seem to be taking the same approach as the Leafs signing fringe and depth players. That works for the Leafs cause they have no choice but it isn't sustainable. You have to have that elite talent first if that's the route you want to take. Personally I would rather have the balanced lineup like we do and acquire 1 or 2 elite players if we can't find them in the draft. I also think that we really only have 1 hole left to fill and even that MAY be filled by the end of the year if Romanov does come over this spring. After drafting Caufield this year we don't HAVE to go out and get a sniper he is in the system and likely ready next year. I just feel like if management sees a hole that they need to fill why only go half assed at it overpay a little to acquire the guy you feel you need rather then take the half assed approach and miss then turn around and sign a Cousins as a backup plan

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Bergevin has been far from the ideal GM. He's made some good moves but he's also had his fair share of blunders. He held on to MB way too long,,,, who  IMO devalued some of our talent with his stubborn ways. MB's ignoring the farm system in his early years is probably his biggest blunder. Hiring guys with little to no coaching experience to teach your prospects was a disaster. The Cap room issue is not a big deal this year but when he had a shot at  filling some holes in the past (Markov or Radulov) he played hardball and missed out on both. Niemi had a brutal year last season and likely cost us the playoffs. I would argue even calling up Charlie and waiving Niemi could have been the difference. The Aho thing this summer just tied our hands for a week and was anything but a serious offer IMO. He really overdid the signing of 4th line depth players this summer and now these guys will be eating ice time from our kids on the farm. I wouldn't lose any sleep at all if he got replaced tomorrow,,,,  assuming it's an upgrade.

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50 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Bergevin has been far from the ideal GM. He's made some good moves but he's also had his fair share of blunders. He held on to MB way too long,,,, who  IMO devalued some of our talent with his stubborn ways. MB's ignoring the farm system in his early years is probably his biggest blunder. Hiring guys with little to no coaching experience to teach your prospects was a disaster. The Cap room issue is not a big deal this year but when he had a shot at  filling some holes in the past (Markov or Radulov) he played hardball and missed out on both. Niemi had a brutal year last season and likely cost us the playoffs. I would argue even calling up Charlie and waiving Niemi could have been the difference. The Aho thing this summer just tied our hands for a week and was anything but a serious offer IMO. He really overdid the signing of 4th line depth players this summer and now these guys will be eating ice time from our kids on the farm. I wouldn't lose any sleep at all if he got replaced tomorrow,,,,  assuming it's an upgrade.

There’s a few pluses and minuses on Bergevin so far from the ideal is a good statement- IMO a gm has to take some risks but to date the biggest disappointment for me is the lack of a strong goal scorer and or center - he tried with Drouin and right now it’s a large miss with Sergachev. He does have a good feel for the team character which is a plus and having to choose between Subbans ego and patches on team leadership had to be very difficult, and fixing it again with dumping chucky for Domi (hothead or passion? - Tie probably told him don’t get walked on or you’ll get abused your whole career). He seems to have a knack for finding some discards like Byron, Kulak, and I think now Weal plus the Danault trade, so I get why he goes after guys like Armia, Thompson and Cousins because of previous success. Being burned by Alzner would make me gun shy on free agents so I think he’s learned a massive lesson about making sure he gets skill and character - I’m happy he pulled the plug on Radulov and Markov and Benn. 

Our prospect pool is somewhat fixed, Ducharme may be a coach in waiting and we are not in salary cap hell so it’s not all doom and gloom despite our anxiety to want a return to glory ASAP 

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15 hours ago, campabee82 said:

 If we had offered say a 1st and Juulsen for Ghost or whatever it took we may have gotten him and we would have been that much better but we probably wouldn't have a lot of cap space left.

And then when Ghost would have bad year with us, u would be bashing Bergy here for doing stupid trade...  I think its allways good to have little cap space. U will never know what will happend and who player will be availlable.

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2 hours ago, Monneednewera said:

And then when Ghost would have bad year with us, u would be bashing Bergy here for doing stupid trade...  I think its allways good to have little cap space. U will never know what will happend and who player will be availlable.

I don't unjustly bash MB, like I said previously he has made some great trades and FA signings and he has made some horrible ones. I have never said anything bad about the Alzner signing, he was the best FA Dman available that year and in what was supposed to be his prime coming off a good year in Washington. My issue with the whole thing was how much CJ played him up the lineup and couldn't see he didn't belong in the top 4. The Chucky trade at the time I thought was horrible but looking back at this point we stole Domi. PK for Weber was in my opinion a grave mistake. Drouin for Sergachev another blunder. Trades are part of the GM job and always a risk cause you never know how that player will gel with the team. The only Alzner MB issue I have is that he didn't demote Alzner to the AHL sooner but again CJ wanted him in the top 4 so that's more on CJ then MB. Don't presume to know how I will react your not me

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