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2019-20 State Of The Habs


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I maintain that Bergevin didn't do enough this off-season to get the team to the play-offs. It appears that the two promotions to start the season on Thursday might be Cale Fleury and Nick Suzuki. We added Ben Chiarot in free agency. However, we look eerily similar to the team that couldn't make the post-season last year. And even then, being so close was helped along by a career year from Max Domi. Can Max do it again? I still think our defense isn't good enough to get us there. I also don't see where the PP improvements are going to come from.

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29 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I maintain that Bergevin didn't do enough this off-season to get the team to the play-offs. It appears that the two promotions to start the season on Thursday might be Cale Fleury and Nick Suzuki. We added Ben Chiarot in free agency. However, we look eerily similar to the team that couldn't make the post-season last year. And even then, being so close was helped along by a career year from Max Domi. Can Max do it again? I still think our defense isn't good enough to get us there. I also don't see where the PP improvements are going to come from.

I don't know how similar you can be without subtracting some integral parts ...depending on the waiver status there could be a change of 9 or 10 players from last year not including Alzner and Weise who I assume wont get picked up by another team ...for a team that barely missed the play-offs injecting upwards of 3 rookies in Poehling , Suzuki and Fleury isn't eerily similar to me ...I like the acquisition of a tougher than Benn Chairot , a more versatile Cousins over a guy like Chaput or Agostino and a goalie improvement I'm assuming over Niemi ...including the possible injection of a couple of rookies these are about as many significant changes you can make from within the organization without gutting any core players ….the only guy I'll miss is Shawsy but Montreal had to make room somewhere and the return was decent 

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53 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I don't know how similar you can be without subtracting some integral parts ...depending on the waiver status there could be a change of 9 or 10 players from last year not including Alzner and Weise who I assume wont get picked up by another team ...for a team that barely missed the play-offs injecting upwards of 3 rookies in Poehling , Suzuki and Fleury isn't eerily similar to me ...I like the acquisition of a tougher than Benn Chairot , a more versatile Cousins over a guy like Chaput or Agostino and a goalie improvement I'm assuming over Niemi ...including the possible injection of a couple of rookies these are about as many significant changes you can make from within the organization without gutting any core players ….the only guy I'll miss is Shawsy but Montreal had to make room somewhere and the return was decent 

There have been changes, but I don't think they're substantial enough to vault us into a play-off position. Although, yes, I do agree that Kincaid should provide some improvement over Niemi. I guess I just don't see where Chiarot is an upgrade on Benn. I don't see how Suzuki (and possibly Poehling) offset Andrew Shaw's production.

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40 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

There have been changes, but I don't think they're substantial enough to vault us into a play-off position. Although, yes, I do agree that Kincaid should provide some improvement over Niemi. I guess I just don't see where Chiarot is an upgrade on Benn. I don't see how Suzuki (and possibly Poehling) offset Andrew Shaw's production.

for sure it remains to be seen how this will work out but I do like Chiarot's toughness without sacrificing mobility ...the rookie question will become apparent but for now Suzuki might have a surprising year ...the thing for me about Shaw's production is that it was as good as a career year and he has had health issues ….love him as a player but it might have been the absolute best time to let him go …..for 2020 2nd and 7th and a 2021 3rd I might add 

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20 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

There have been changes, but I don't think they're substantial enough to vault us into a play-off position. Although, yes, I do agree that Kincaid should provide some improvement over Niemi. I guess I just don't see where Chiarot is an upgrade on Benn. I don't see how Suzuki (and possibly Poehling) offset Andrew Shaw's production.

I actually think the team should be "a little better". One thing not mentioned is we will have Weber to start the season with a full training camp also.

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3 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I maintain that Bergevin didn't do enough this off-season to get the team to the play-offs. It appears that the two promotions to start the season on Thursday might be Cale Fleury and Nick Suzuki. We added Ben Chiarot in free agency. However, we look eerily similar to the team that couldn't make the post-season last year. And even then, being so close was helped along by a career year from Max Domi. Can Max do it again? I still think our defense isn't good enough to get us there. I also don't see where the PP improvements are going to come from.

I agree he has not done enough to make us contenders this summer however he has made improvements that should payoff by securing a playoff spot.

1. Kinkade is definitly better than Niemi, my prediction is he will earn us 5-7 more points this year than Niemi did.

2. Chiarot is more mobile and has a harder shot than Benn and more adept at keeping guys off Carey. He won't cost us as many points as Benn and Alzner did.

3. We now have 3 big shots on the blue line, Weber's is about 105-107 mph and the hardest of the three, Petry's is 100-105 mph and Chiarot last year at jets skills contest was measured at about 104 mph. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be the opposing goalie facing a big shot on every pairing.

4. Suzuki, I honestly believe Suzuki will out play Shaw right out of the gate.

The things I am worried about this year are 

1. Domi's performance being equal or better than last year but if this happens we have options like moving Domi to the wing and giving JK, Poehling or Suzuki a shot at centering that line or changing up the wingers.

2. Kotkaniemi improving and not going through the soft-more slump

3. Price going down with a major injury and Kinkade having to start more than 20-25 games

4. The PP and PK not improving, I liked the idea of taking Drouin of the point and putting Mete there on the first unit in the preseason it looked much better with Drouin on the half wall, I didn't like the last game when CJ removed KK from the PP units all together.my ideal PP would be

Drouin-Domi-Gallagher, Mete-Weber

Tatar-Kotkaniemi-Suzuki, Kulak-Petry 

both units have setup guys and 2 shooters as well as a guy to stand in front of the net

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4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I maintain that Bergevin didn't do enough this off-season to get the team to the play-offs. It appears that the two promotions to start the season on Thursday might be Cale Fleury and Nick Suzuki. We added Ben Chiarot in free agency. However, we look eerily similar to the team that couldn't make the post-season last year. And even then, being so close was helped along by a career year from Max Domi. Can Max do it again? I still think our defense isn't good enough to get us there. I also don't see where the PP improvements are going to come from.

I get what you're saying & dont disagree - however - the plan seems to be to hope that some of the youth takes big jumps.   If JK, Mete and others continue to improve, thats a big positive.  But as you eluded to, we need guys like Domi and Tatar to maintain what they did last year too (both having career years).  We need guys like Weber and Petry and Price not to regress.   We need the young guys like Suzuki and Fleury (who is actually taking Juulsen's spot so its just 1 rookie for another) to jump right in.

There's a lot of "potential" but there's also a lot of potential for error.  Having said that, we were an 'NHL quality backup' or an 'average' powerplay away from making the playoffs.  Considering we set a record for most points without making the postseason i think there's a legit chance the team makes the playoffs. The PP is still a concern of course but I am hoping they have figured it out. Kinkaid should be a lot better than Niemi. 

Im cautiously optimistic for this year, but can totally understand why someone else may not be. 

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TBH Part of me wants to see the Habs be better and make the playoffs, but part of me wants to them to just miss them once again so we can get MB out drivers seat.  I think he has proven again this year that he is a worthless GM.  Price and Weber have a few years left and he has kept this team at a point of mediocrity for too long, his list of failures far outweigh his successes.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Yeah i'm optimistic too, but we could finish anywhere from 1st to 10th in this division IMO. A lot needs to go right for us, but that could be said of a lot of teams.

True. 

I kind of like our chances more than a team that has put everything "in one basket" so to speak.  We legitimately have 6 players who could crack 50+ points this year in Domi, Gallagher, Drouin, Danault, JK, Tatar and even guys like Suzuki, Poehling, Lehks, Byron,Cousins, and Weal have an outside chance at like 40 point seasons.   You look at a team like Toronto that has 4 elite forwards... then a couple of decent guys.. then like 5-6 that are borderline NHLers.     You cant have your elite guys out for 60 minutes a game.    I feel like we are going swarm all night long every night. 

I think our back-end is (slightly) improved (mostly because Mete is a year older and Weber is starting the year healthy) and i have more faith in Kinkaid than Niemi. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, 26NCounting said:

TBH Part of me wants to see the Habs be better and make the playoffs, but part of me wants to them to just miss them once again so we can get MB out drivers seat.  I think he has proven again this year that he is a worthless GM.  Price and Weber have a few years left and he has kept this team at a point of mediocrity for too long, his list of failures far outweigh his successes.

I think even another year of futility and he's safe.  Molson is making money. Fans are filing the seats.  MB is good at talking the talk. I think Molson will give him at least one more year if not longer. 

The other thing is: because we have to hire a french GM, I would be concerned that his replacement may not necessarily be better. 

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2 hours ago, arpem-can said:

for sure it remains to be seen how this will work out but I do like Chiarot's toughness without sacrificing mobility ...the rookie question will become apparent but for now Suzuki might have a surprising year ...the thing for me about Shaw's production is that it was as good as a career year and he has had health issues ….love him as a player but it might have been the absolute best time to let him go …..for 2020 2nd and 7th and a 2021 3rd I might add 

Oh, I agree that it was the best time to let Shaw go. And I like the return. Just not sure our team will be as good with him or without him over the next 82 games.

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I think part of the pessimism I have is that I don't expect the team to be as good 5-on-5 this year and other teams in our division also improved during the off-season. I would love to be wrong. I would love for us to make the post-season... but I think, IMO, the number one position we needed to improve was the LD and we failed to do so. We didn't add any scoring punch. We didn't do anything to address our woeful PP.

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6 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I think part of the pessimism I have is that I don't expect the team to be as good 5-on-5 this year and other teams in our division also improved during the off-season. I would love to be wrong. I would love for us to make the post-season... but I think, IMO, the number one position we needed to improve was the LD and we failed to do so. We didn't add any scoring punch. We didn't do anything to address our woeful PP.

Agree.  If we had added 1 guy who could be a true #1LD AND a PP quarterback that would have made a world of difference.

Sadly i think a lot of weight may be resting on Mete's shoulders entering the season.

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Because none of Reilly, Folin, Cousins etc was waived today I *believe* that means one of our non-waiver guys (Poehling, Fleury, Suzuki, JK) are going down to Laval - or - there's a trade about to be announced.

If the team waits till tomorrow to put the last player on waivers, they wont clear until Wednesday at Noon - and they have to be roster-compliant by 5pm tomorrow. 

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5 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Because none of Reilly, Folin, Cousins etc was waived today I *believe* that means one of our non-waiver guys (Poehling, Fleury, Suzuki, JK) are going down to Laval - or - there's a trade about to be announced.

If the team waits till tomorrow to put the last player on waivers, they wont clear until Wednesday at Noon - and they have to be roster-compliant by 5pm tomorrow. 

If they keep those 3 trash players over the 3 youngsters, I will just give up on this season all together.  All 3 of these young players have way more skill and potential than that trash.  Yes I am being harsh but trash is exactly what they are.

 

Reilly is a D man that has no idea how to play D, has no grit, no size

Folin is just horrible, he looked like a beer league D man during every preseason game he was in

Cousins has some size and grit but has no offensive upside at all.

 

Would be far more beneficial to keep one of the young players that offer, size, skill and speed.  Well I guess no size in the case of Suzuki but he has great skill and speed

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41 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Because none of Reilly, Folin, Cousins etc was waived today I *believe* that means one of our non-waiver guys (Poehling, Fleury, Suzuki, JK) are going down to Laval - or - there's a trade about to be announced.

If the team waits till tomorrow to put the last player on waivers, they wont clear until Wednesday at Noon - and they have to be roster-compliant by 5pm tomorrow. 

He deserves to be on this roster but I still think Poehling will start in Laval. I would imagine he's the first forward called up when we get an injury. It will be at that point that he'll once again need to prove himself.

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I think part of the pessimism I have is that I don't expect the team to be as good 5-on-5 this year and other teams in our division also improved during the off-season. I would love to be wrong. I would love for us to make the post-season... but I think, IMO, the number one position we needed to improve was the LD and we failed to do so. We didn't add any scoring punch. We didn't do anything to address our woeful PP.

 honestly I don't know why Montreal shouldn't just as good a possession team 5 on 5 as they were last year ...even if we didn't improve on the LHD position I don't believe we got worse with Chiarot over Jordie . I think if Suzuki makes this team it'll be top 6 , he will get his points and he'll just as good from a possession standpoint as Shaw if not better because he's more of a finesse player ..He also plays a little bigger than I thought he would ..all pluses from here 

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Regardless of whether we're better or worse this year than last, the main problem is that MB didn't do anything to fix the LHD problem. We're still running a #4 D man (Mete) as our top pairing guy and two bottom-pairing D men (Chiarot and Kulak) on the other pairs. We lost Shaw, who played really well for us, and we're counting on guys like Domi, Gallagher, Kotkaniemi, Petry, Tatar, and Danault to do the same or better than they did last year, with most of those guys having had career years last season.

I'm not saying the younger guys won't help. Suzuki and Poehling and Fleury and Brook and so on are promising. But to count on them to be difference makers rather than supporting players? To make your plan that Weber and Price will be healthier than last season? There's nothing to say we won't run into even worse luck with injuries. There's nothing to say players from last year won't regress too. Bottom line is that we didn't make a single impact acquisition, neither as a scorer nor at LHD. We're counting on a lot of "hypothetically, this could go better" to make progress and the NYR, Car, Fla, and so on all got better. Ott looks awful and Det looks weak and Buf is a mess and Clb will probably regress a bit, but overall, I think our competition got better than we did.

This team could finish top 3 in the division or they could be a bottom 10 team in the league. I don't see us as a Cup contender, and so whether we straggle into the playoffs or just miss them, I think MB has missed the mark in terms of improving the team. And to say he's waiting on younger players is fine, but if you're doing that, then you need to trade Price and Weber... still not seeing a clear plan here.

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I don't see him as waiting on younger players ...I see the additions of Mete , KK , Juulsen ( before he got hurt ) and now possibly Suzuki , or Poehling or  Fleury making the step sooner than later ...this was the youngest or near the youngest team in the league last year ….that is the clear plan to me ...don't mortgage the future & develop a fast skilled team from within or by smart trading ... even the Romanov pick became part of the Danault package from Chicago ...maybe Bergevin didn't get that in his first 3 or 4 years because he was trying to make noise in the play-offs and satisfy everyone's expectations ...yes he made mistakes like every GM in history not named Sam Pollock ...so gone are the Vanek days ...now  the team is way deeper going forward and if a deadline acquisition is to be made I have a feeling it won't just be for a 1 1/2 month rental for picks or high -level prospects  ...if St Louis can win the Cup like they did last year or Vegas go to the final in it's first year of operation anything is possible in this cap structured league 

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11 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I don't see him as waiting on younger players ...I see the additions of Mete , KK , Juulsen ( before he got hurt ) and now possibly Suzuki , or Poehling or  Fleury making the step sooner than later ...this was the youngest or near the youngest team in the league last year ….that is the clear plan to me ...don't mortgage the future & develop a fast skilled team from within or by smart trading ... even the Romanov pick became part of the Danault package from Chicago ...maybe Bergevin didn't get that in his first 3 or 4 years because he was trying to make noise in the play-offs and satisfy everyone's expectations ...yes he made mistakes like every GM in history not named Sam Pollock ...so gone are the Vanek days ...now  the team is way deeper going forward and if a deadline acquisition is to be made I have a feeling it won't just be for a 1 1/2 month rental for picks or high -level prospects  ...if St Louis can win the Cup like they did last year or Vegas go to the final in it's first year of operation anything is possible in this cap structured league 

I'm not against going with youth. But I don't think this roster can win a Cup. The hole(s) on the left side of the D are too important. There are lots of good forwards but not a lot of snipers/ pure scorers. This team is just missing important cogs and many of their most valuable players are injury-prone. My problem is that if you're not good enough to win now (and borderline as to whether you can even make the playoffs), what is the plan here? Are you building to try and win a Cup in 2 years? In 4 years? I get wanting to build around Suzuki and JK and Romanov and Brook and Poehling and so on. Fine. Maybe that's even a good plan. But if you're not good enough to compete for a Cup now and you think you're going to be in your window in 2-3 years, then what's the value in holding onto Weber? Weber is declining. He's not the same player he was 5 years ago or even 3 years ago. Even if he puts up some PP goals, he's not as strong at ES as he once was. Is he still good? Yes. But is her dominant any more? No. Is he going to be a 1st pairing guy in 3 years? I'm doubtful. Ditto for Price. Is he all-star caliber in 3 years? Is he a top 10 goalie in 3 years? Hard to say, but he's certainly going to be paid like one. Petry? Maybe not a top 3 guy in a couple of years, the way we saw Markov and Hamrlik and Kaberle drop off in their 30's. Danault and Tatar and Gallagher are going to be UFA's soon enough and if you want to keep them, you're going to have to pay them. Are we going to be able to afford those players AND Price and Weber and these young guys coming off rookie contracts when these RFA's are now demanding big pay days?

This is not a bad team. In fact, I'd argue that if you add a top pairing LHD and a guy who can score on the PP, we'd be in contention with the Bruins and Leafs and Caps and so on. So at what point does MS bit the bullet and make a move? Yes, you can build around youth, but if you're doing that, trade Weber and Price and Petry and get value for these guys before it's too late. And if you're building around Price and Weber, as MB claims he is, then for Pete's sake, make yourself good enough to have a shot at a championship instead of half-assing it to try and edge your way into the playoffs.

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11 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I'm not against going with youth. But I don't think this roster can win a Cup. The hole(s) on the left side of the D are too important. There are lots of good forwards but not a lot of snipers/ pure scorers. This team is just missing important cogs and many of their most valuable players are injury-prone. My problem is that if you're not good enough to win now (and borderline as to whether you can even make the playoffs), what is the plan here? Are you building to try and win a Cup in 2 years? In 4 years? I get wanting to build around Suzuki and JK and Romanov and Brook and Poehling and so on. Fine. Maybe that's even a good plan. But if you're not good enough to compete for a Cup now and you think you're going to be in your window in 2-3 years, then what's the value in holding onto Weber? Weber is declining. He's not the same player he was 5 years ago or even 3 years ago. Even if he puts up some PP goals, he's not as strong at ES as he once was. Is he still good? Yes. But is her dominant any more? No. Is he going to be a 1st pairing guy in 3 years? I'm doubtful. Ditto for Price. Is he all-star caliber in 3 years? Is he a top 10 goalie in 3 years? Hard to say, but he's certainly going to be paid like one. Petry? Maybe not a top 3 guy in a couple of years, the way we saw Markov and Hamrlik and Kaberle drop off in their 30's. Danault and Tatar and Gallagher are going to be UFA's soon enough and if you want to keep them, you're going to have to pay them. Are we going to be able to afford those players AND Price and Weber and these young guys coming off rookie contracts when these RFA's are now demanding big pay days?

This is not a bad team. In fact, I'd argue that if you add a top pairing LHD and a guy who can score on the PP, we'd be in contention with the Bruins and Leafs and Caps and so on. So at what point does MS bit the bullet and make a move? Yes, you can build around youth, but if you're doing that, trade Weber and Price and Petry and get value for these guys before it's too late. And if you're building around Price and Weber, as MB claims he is, then for Pete's sake, make yourself good enough to have a shot at a championship instead of half-assing it to try and edge your way into the playoffs.

I can't disagree with some of your points ...but I also see as part of the process that certain core and  still young players will need to be paid and that will probably happen by deletion and attrition for other aging players like Weber and Petry (and even possibly Price?)  in the next 2 or 3 years and when the time is right ...at that point  Tatar  Danault or even Gallagher as you mentioned might not even be in the cards for Montreal who knows ? but its not exactly a panic situation  right now to me ...I'm in a wait see mode this year when it comes to Bergevin pulling the trigger on something before the end of this season ...

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I'm not against going with youth. But I don't think this roster can win a Cup. The hole(s) on the left side of the D are too important. There are lots of good forwards but not a lot of snipers/ pure scorers. This team is just missing important cogs and many of their most valuable players are injury-prone. My problem is that if you're not good enough to win now (and borderline as to whether you can even make the playoffs), what is the plan here? Are you building to try and win a Cup in 2 years? In 4 years? I get wanting to build around Suzuki and JK and Romanov and Brook and Poehling and so on. Fine. Maybe that's even a good plan. But if you're not good enough to compete for a Cup now and you think you're going to be in your window in 2-3 years, then what's the value in holding onto Weber? Weber is declining. He's not the same player he was 5 years ago or even 3 years ago. Even if he puts up some PP goals, he's not as strong at ES as he once was. Is he still good? Yes. But is her dominant any more? No. Is he going to be a 1st pairing guy in 3 years? I'm doubtful. Ditto for Price. Is he all-star caliber in 3 years? Is he a top 10 goalie in 3 years? Hard to say, but he's certainly going to be paid like one. Petry? Maybe not a top 3 guy in a couple of years, the way we saw Markov and Hamrlik and Kaberle drop off in their 30's. Danault and Tatar and Gallagher are going to be UFA's soon enough and if you want to keep them, you're going to have to pay them. Are we going to be able to afford those players AND Price and Weber and these young guys coming off rookie contracts when these RFA's are now demanding big pay days?

This is not a bad team. In fact, I'd argue that if you add a top pairing LHD and a guy who can score on the PP, we'd be in contention with the Bruins and Leafs and Caps and so on. So at what point does MS bit the bullet and make a move? Yes, you can build around youth, but if you're doing that, trade Weber and Price and Petry and get value for these guys before it's too late. And if you're building around Price and Weber, as MB claims he is, then for Pete's sake, make yourself good enough to have a shot at a championship instead of half-assing it to try and edge your way into the playoffs.

I agree wholeheartedly with this and given Molsons interview posted today I don't think MB is even close to being fired. Basically Molson said that the fans need to be patient, our window is sometime in the next 3-8 years or even 1-8 years. Way to narrow down the plan Mr. Molson. So sometime in the next 1-8 years he plans on being a contender and if not what then another MB retool? So now we are talking about MB entering years 9-16 of his 5 year plan. Koodos to MB for making his rebuild seem like a  minor retool. Our new dynasty is to "retool" every 4-5 years until we somehow get lucky and squeak into the playoffs where anything can happen as MB puts it. Forget building through trades, FA, Waivers, OS Or good old fashioned PTO's let's luck into it like we are playing the lottery. Why not it isn't like it's MB's money is it Mr. Molson?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/habs-owner-geoff-molson-urges-fans-to-have-patience-in-his-speech-to-canadian-club/amp

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8 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I agree wholeheartedly with this and given Molsons interview posted today I don't think MB is even close to being fired. Basically Molson said that the fans need to be patient, our window is sometime in the next 3-8 years or even 1-8 years. Way to narrow down the plan Mr. Molson. So sometime in the next 1-8 years he plans on being a contender and if not what then another MB retool? So now we are talking about MB entering years 9-16 of his 5 year plan. Koodos to MB for making his rebuild seem like a  minor retool. Our new dynasty is to "retool" every 4-5 years until we somehow get lucky and squeak into the playoffs where anything can happen as MB puts it. Forget building through trades, FA, Waivers, OS Or good old fashioned PTO's let's luck into it like we are playing the lottery. Why not it isn't like it's MB's money is it Mr. Molson?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/habs-owner-geoff-molson-urges-fans-to-have-patience-in-his-speech-to-canadian-club/amp

 I'm a pretty patient guy when it comes to the Habs and I've seen many Cups in my lifetime (17) as a Habs fan but I must say 3-8 years is something I won't accept ...the most I go for is 2 or 3 without at least a  final appearance ...after that it's more likely I'll die of old age so I'm not "down wit dat "

..lol

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