2019-20 State Of The Habs

[arpem-can]

1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

Yep it is sad. Webber seems to be getting better with age and a non smurf partner and Subban can't seem to find a steady partner or his game in Jersey. i still think Subban is spending way too much time on his off ice interests rather than the game that made him a star and pays him 9 mil a year!

yeah I for one thought that Subban would continue improving as a hockey player but he's regressing ….so the trade is heavily leaning in Montreal's favour if only just from a leadership angle ...I think management envisioned PK's decline going forward from a "brand " perspective despite what he did for the community ...I was a Subby fan ( and lets not forget he's on his 3rd team now ) but I loved this trade from the get-go

[arpem-can]

the sad reality is Subban could probably be coerced from Jersey for picks and prospects or maybe one roster player from the D at this point but you have to take Lindsay Vonn in the deal ...there for sure seems to be some baggage  

[kinot-2]

34 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

the sad reality is Subban could probably be coerced from Jersey for picks and prospects or maybe one roster player from the D at this point but you have to take Lindsay Vonn in the deal ...there for sure seems to be some baggage  

You'd have to make sure that NJ eats some of his contract. 

[arpem-can]

44 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

You'd have to make sure that NJ eats some of his contract. 

 

It is an interesting thought though ...I mean getting Subban  ...it's not like we'd be trying to get him back from Nashville ...Jersey is obviously rebuilding and Subby isn't exactly lighting it up …..he's still an asset albeit a diminished one at this point ….then again it's a left-hand shot we need not right ...ok forget it …..lol

[MuddyWaterMoose]

18 hours ago, arpem-can said:

yeah I for one thought that Subban would continue improving as a hockey player but he's regressing ….so the trade is heavily leaning in Montreal's favour if only just from a leadership angle ...I think management envisioned PK's decline going forward from a "brand " perspective despite what he did for the community ...I was a Subby fan ( and lets not forget he's on his 3rd team now ) but I loved this trade from the get-go

So then, is it safe to say this trade should no longer be mentioned as a blunder by MB?

 

 

[CANADIENS27]

Penalties, poor decisions, odd man rushes.  

 

 

[campabee82]

2 hours ago, MuddyWaterMoose said:

So then, is it safe to say this trade should no longer be mentioned as a blunder by MB?

 

 

No I don't agree it will always be A blunder on MB. You can't devalue your own player to the point that it lessens the return. You can't tell me the a 28 year old top tier defender wouldn't have gotten more than a past prime top 4 defender. Do you think Edmonton would trade Klefblom 1 for 1 for Duncan Kieth? Or Anahiem will trade Fowler to Detroit for Ericsson? How about Washington trading Carlson to San Jose for Burns straight up? All of these trades would be viewed as losses if a 1st or 2nd rounder wasn't at least part of the deal. There for the Weber Subban trade will always be A blunder no matter how much Weber out plays Subban. It's not about the players abilities so much as the devaluing of Subban where the return was less than it should have been.

[campabee82]

19 hours ago, arpem-can said:

 

It is an interesting thought though ...I mean getting Subban  ...it's not like we'd be trying to get him back from Nashville ...Jersey is obviously rebuilding and Subby isn't exactly lighting it up …..he's still an asset albeit a diminished one at this point ….then again it's a left-hand shot we need not right ...ok forget it …..lol

Subban and Weber have enough tallent that either could play the left side. A

Weber-Subban

Chiarot-Petry 

Mete-Fluery 

Lineup would be awsome to have but MB isn't going to make that trade after saying Subban was part of the problem.

[arpem-can]

9 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

No I don't agree it will always be A blunder on MB. You can't devalue your own player to the point that it lessens the return. You can't tell me the a 28 year old top tier defender wouldn't have gotten more than a past prime top 4 defender. Do you think Edmonton would trade Klefblom 1 for 1 for Duncan Kieth? Or Anahiem will trade Fowler to Detroit for Ericsson? How about Washington trading Carlson to San Jose for Burns straight up? All of these trades would be viewed as losses if a 1st or 2nd rounder wasn't at least part of the deal. There for the Weber Subban trade will always be A blunder no matter how much Weber out plays Subban. It's not about the players abilities so much as the devaluing of Subban where the return was less than it should have been.

I don't quite follow ...if you're a gm and you envision that the player ( Subban ) will be a devaluated asset going forward for whatever reason  ( brand stuff , bad on ice decisions /giveaways , not enough grit ) you make the trade in a New York minute if the return is a Weber and Nashville for all we know wouldn't  accept anything but a straight up trade ….the blunder appears to be from Nashville's perspective 

[CaptWelly]

16 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

No I don't agree it will always be A blunder on MB. You can't devalue your own player to the point that it lessens the return. You can't tell me the a 28 year old top tier defender wouldn't have gotten more than a past prime top 4 defender. Do you think Edmonton would trade Klefblom 1 for 1 for Duncan Kieth? Or Anahiem will trade Fowler to Detroit for Ericsson? How about Washington trading Carlson to San Jose for Burns straight up? All of these trades would be viewed as losses if a 1st or 2nd rounder wasn't at least part of the deal. There for the Weber Subban trade will always be A blunder no matter how much Weber out plays Subban. It's not about the players abilities so much as the devaluing of Subban where the return was less than it should have been.

At the time of the trade Weber was still considered a top tier defenseman as he is now. Most of the NHL GM's at that time thought the Hab"s won the trade. The fans and mostly Canadiens fans were mostly the ones that didn't think so. Myself I loved the trade from the beginning just my opinion. There was a pole of the actual NHL players just last year and Subban was voted most overrated. Subban is a very talented player but knowing when to do what "hockey sense" and his defensive play itself. Isn't strong enough. When he plays with other who can cover for him he looks good as in Nashville and when with Markov. His overall play is showing a lot more in New Jersey. On the 'two man advantage"  XM NHL radio just the other day the color play by play for New Jersey was asked about Subban and unfortunately said his defensive play has been "sub NHL defenseman " .  He has all the tools know one denies that. He needs to get his "head back in the game" as they used to say. Hopefully he'll turn it around. I think he would be to much of a distraction to bring back. I also don't think he'd be the type player to play under Jullien. He likes structure and players that play the way he wants and not do their own thing. 

[MuddyWaterMoose]

7 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I don't quite follow ...if you're a gm and you envision that the player ( Subban ) will be a devaluated asset going forward for whatever reason  ( brand stuff , bad on ice decisions /giveaways , not enough grit ) you make the trade in a New York minute if the return is a Weber and Nashville for all we know wouldn't  accept anything but a straight up trade ….the blunder appears to be from Nashville's perspective 

Agree. It's easy to sit at home and suggest a trade should go a particular way but in reality, you need a dance partner to dance. Just because fans think/thought Subban had a particular value doesn't make it so. 

[HabsAlways]

10 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I don't quite follow ...if you're a gm and you envision that the player ( Subban ) will be a devaluated asset going forward for whatever reason  ( brand stuff , bad on ice decisions /giveaways , not enough grit ) you make the trade in a New York minute if the return is a Weber and Nashville for all we know wouldn't  accept anything but a straight up trade ….the blunder appears to be from Nashville's perspective 

The problem is ... at the time, based on on-ice performance and career trajectory ... trading Subban straight up for Weber has and always will be a blunder.    Any good GM would have at least gotten a pick alongside Weber.    Subban was one of the top offensive D in the league, had won the Norris and was seen as a strong driver of offense.   Whether you as a GM thought his career was on the downslide or going to regress is irrelevant.   You trade from strength, not weakness.   You don't go to Nashville and say "well Subban is only going to get worse, so yes .. we'll take the older, regressing Weber off your hands for our stud young D"

 

[HabsAlways]

6 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

At the time of the trade Weber was still considered a top tier defenseman as he is now. Most of the NHL GM's at that time thought the Hab"s won the trade. The fans and mostly Canadiens fans were mostly the ones that didn't think so. Myself I loved the trade from the beginning just my opinion. There was a pole of the actual NHL players just last year and Subban was voted most overrated. Subban is a very talented player but knowing when to do what "hockey sense" and his defensive play itself. Isn't strong enough. When he plays with other who can cover for him he looks good as in Nashville and when with Markov. His overall play is showing a lot more in New Jersey. On the 'two man advantage"  XM NHL radio just the other day the color play by play for New Jersey was asked about Subban and unfortunately said his defensive play has been "sub NHL defenseman " .  He has all the tools know one denies that. He needs to get his "head back in the game" as they used to say. Hopefully he'll turn it around. I think he would be to much of a distraction to bring back. I also don't think he'd be the type player to play under Jullien. He likes structure and players that play the way he wants and not do their own thing. 

It wasn't just fans :  https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p-k-subban-trade-may-worst-canadiens-history/

 

Now Weber will move from playing with Josi to the 38-year-old Andrei Markov who, while supremely talented, is certainly not fleet of foot. Neither of these two defenders move particularly well, making this look like a recipe for disaster.

This trade is so lopsided that it’s hard to believe it happened at all. The Canadiens have saved all of $1.14 million in cap space, but committed to an older player for four extra years. They’re on the hook for Weber’s July 1 signing bonus of $8 million and will pay him a total of $54 million until he’s 41 years old. Subban is owed just $58 million until age 33.

[HabsAlways]

But ... I'll go one further.     The mistake wasn't directly Subban for Weber one up ... it happened earlier, when they hired JJ Daigneault over Larry Robinson as the defense coach.    Wonder what effect Big Bird would have had on Subban's career.

[ramcharger440]

6 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

It wasn't just fans :  https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p-k-subban-trade-may-worst-canadiens-history/

 

Now Weber will move from playing with Josi to the 38-year-old Andrei Markov who, while supremely talented, is certainly not fleet of foot. Neither of these two defenders move particularly well, making this look like a recipe for disaster.

This trade is so lopsided that it’s hard to believe it happened at all. The Canadiens have saved all of $1.14 million in cap space, but committed to an older player for four extra years. They’re on the hook for Weber’s July 1 signing bonus of $8 million and will pay him a total of $54 million until he’s 41 years old. Subban is owed just $58 million until age 33.

Yeah well look who is wrong now...... it is impossible to know how a trade is going to work out, it is why i feel some rely too much on stats. Subban on paper and by stats was the better player for sure when the move was made, but what do stats not show us? perhaps Subban was already not into the game as much as he perhaps should have been? he was starting the clothing thing he was working on his brand too perhaps he drank his own cool aid by then we don't know we never will. weather some folks like it or not there was something going on in that dressing room too it was probably not all on him but still it is a small group of guy's that all have to work as a team if one guy see's himself above that it could be an issue too the fact is there are plenty of factors that go into a trade not just what the player did before. Webber has more than held his own he has played with far inferior partners until this season and with more pressure they have both been hurt and they have both had good patches too but Webber sure does seem to be getting older with more grace at the moment. i for one never felt that Webber would fall off all that much he is too good of an athlete for that but i also never thought Subban would fall apart like this either guess the stats can't show us everything......

[ramcharger440]

5 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

But ... I'll go one further.     The mistake wasn't directly Subban for Weber one up ... it happened earlier, when they hired JJ Daigneault over Larry Robinson as the defense coach.    Wonder what effect Big Bird would have had on Subban's career.

I agree 100% with this.

[HabsAlways]

1 minute ago, ramcharger440 said:

Yeah well look who is wrong now...... it is impossible to know how a trade is going to work out, it is why i feel some rely too much on stats. Subban on paper and by stats was the better player for sure when the move was made, but what do stats not show us? perhaps Subban was already not into the game as much as he perhaps should have been? he was starting the clothing thing he was working on his brand too perhaps he drank his own cool aid by then we don't know we never will. weather some folks like it or not there was something going on in that dressing room too it was probably not all on him but still it is a small group of guy's that all have to work as a team if one guy see's himself above that it could be an issue too the fact is there are plenty of factors that go into a trade not just what the player did before. Webber has more than held his own he has played with far inferior partners until this season and with more pressure they have both been hurt and they have both had good patches too but Webber sure does seem to be getting older with more grace at the moment. i for one never felt that Webber would fall off all that much he is too good of an athlete for that but i also never thought Subban would fall apart like this either guess the stats can't show us everything......

Hindsight always makes trades better or worse.    Its easy now to look at the trade given the current circumstances and say we won it easily.    Yet, at the time if it had been say Subban for Weber + 3rd it would have made more sense.     Older player etc, contract lasting till he's 41, that 3rd offsets that.   They were so hell bent on trading Subban that they lowered his value.  

And even given how things have played out, with Subban seeming to have regressed horribly, I can never accept that Bergevin couldn't have gotten more for PK than he did.

[campabee82]

7 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Hindsight always makes trades better or worse.    Its easy now to look at the trade given the current circumstances and say we won it easily.    Yet, at the time if it had been say Subban for Weber + 3rd it would have made more sense.     Older player etc, contract lasting till he's 41, that 3rd offsets that.   They were so hell bent on trading Subban that they lowered his value.  

And even given how things have played out, with Subban seeming to have regressed horribly, I can never accept that Bergevin couldn't have gotten more for PK than he did.

This! exactly this! 

 

13 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

weather some folks like it or not there was something going on in that dressing room too it was probably not all on him but still it is a small group of guy's that all have to work as a team if one guy see's himself above that it could be an issue too the fact is there are plenty of factors that go into a trade not just what the player did before. 

To this I would have to say just that from all outside perspectives and that of some of the players Subban was well liked and respected in the dressing room. Price and Gallagher among others have always maintained that Subban wasn't a distraction and that there was no rift in the dressing room. Even if they were not being truthful to maintain the image of the club trading a 28 year old former Norris trophy Dman in his prime for a top 4 dman without a Norris at age 32 to save 1.14 Mil 1 for 1 should never happen. Especially not after 3 straight years of 50+ points.

[RCAF48]

OK......  Weber is playing better than Subban and has played better overall since the trade but we lost the trade because Subban was the better player and we traded him before he started his decline.

I think I'll go to my quiet space and think about this for awhile. 

 

[habs1952]

Regardless how Subban performed in Nashville or NJ, we'll never know what may have transpired had Subban remained a Hab. 

[arpem-can]

47 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

This! exactly this! 

 

To this I would have to say just that from all outside perspectives and that of some of the players Subban was well liked and respected in the dressing room. Price and Gallagher among others have always maintained that Subban wasn't a distraction and that there was no rift in the dressing room. Even if they were not being truthful to maintain the image of the club trading a 28 year old former Norris trophy Dman in his prime for a top 4 dman without a Norris at age 32 to save 1.14 Mil 1 for 1 should never happen. Especially not after 3 straight years of 50+ points.

 I don't think this trade was made to save $1.14 million at all . Montreal needed a guy like Weber for his leadership , for his cannon shot , for his toughness and to help protect Price who was getting run over by guys like Kreider with no accountability ( certainly not from Subban ) ...you don't see Weber criticizing some one on the bench like Pacs in front of the fans and on tv ..Weber is now  where he should be , as captain ….a role I have a very hard time visualizing in Subban  ...to say that Bergevin should have gotten a 3rd round pick thrown in as well is neither here nor there ... a 3rd round pick is virtually meaningless and almost insulting when you make a deal of this magnitude for 2 very different players with different strengths and different risk levels in their play 

[campabee82]

14 minutes ago, RCAF48 said:

OK......  Weber is playing better than Subban and has played better overall since the trade but we lost the trade because Subban was the better player and we traded him before he started his decline.

 

This is all anyone was saying is right now in hindsight yes we won this trade but at the time of the trade we lost it

[ChiLla]

Isn't it still a little early for a meaningful evaluation? No doubt the trade looks good for us right now, just like it looked good for Nashville when they went to the Finals or when Weber had two serious injuries and Subban was doing just fine. Yet there are still a lot of unknows I think, like how long is Weber actually going to play? Is he going to retire as a Canadien? What about the potential cap recapture penalty for Nashville if he retires early? Has Subban really fallen of a cliff or can he rebound? Are there going to be more trades?

[arpem-can]

2 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

This is all anyone was saying is right now in hindsight yes we won this trade but at the time of the trade we lost it

I never thought we lost the trade . I was a Subban fan , loved him but I thought the trade was good for the club because Weber brought certain elements that Subban couldn't provide ...if Subban had continued putting points on the board well good for him but there were aspects of his play that were hurting the club regardless ...he was a larger than life  personality with more than one iron in the fire besides just concentrating on playing hockey (his philanthropic endeavours aside) ….since the trade these distractions  have shown to be the most significant of factors  in his overall play I believe ….perhaps Bergevin saw this playing out after all .

[CaptWelly]

13 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

This is all anyone was saying is right now in hindsight yes we won this trade but at the time of the trade we lost it

As it will always be with most trades especially ones that involve a popular player. It was not a "consensus" that one side or another "won' the trade. There were several GM's media and fans that thought the HABs won the trade at the time also. All trades over time tell how it works out for both teams. Some involve draft choices or prospects that may or may not ever turn out and some have players that one or the other works for one team or both teams. One example is at this time both Montreal and Vegas are happy with the Pacs trade. Myself I liked Pacs but the trade worked out, and at the time Suzuki was still a question mark and Tatar was deemed on his way down. (I live in Michigan and most Wings fans were happy he was gone and his effort had dropped). It turned out good for both. As fans we get attached and only really see what we see on the ice and the rest comes from sources and which we choose to believe. No one will really know what may have been only what it is now. In another year it could be different again.