Shea Weber

[H_T_L]

I know it's early in the season, but has anybody else noticed that his shot seems to be less intimidating so far? He was physical in the T.O. game, which was nice to see, but he seems to be struggling with his shot accuracy. 

He seems to be gelling well with Mete IMO

[arpem-can]

6 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I know it's early in the season, but has anybody else noticed that his shot seems to be less intimidating so far? He was physical in the T.O. game, which was nice to see, but he seems to be struggling with his shot accuracy. 

He seems to be gelling well with Mete IMO

maybe they should try to work him closer to the center of the ice ...all his shots were from the left side and telegraphed . At one point I was thinking time to fake the boomer and pass it someone else because Hutchinson was waiting for it all night ..I agree though he hasn't been intimidating yet but that will come 

[H_T_L]

1 minute ago, arpem-can said:

maybe they should try to work him closer to the center of the ice ...all his shots were from the left side and telegraphed . At one point I was thinking time to fake the boomer and pass it someone else because Hutchinson was waiting for it all night ..I agree though he hasn't been intimidating yet but that will come 

I think he needs to fake the shot once in awhile and pass off. That's something that Markov was really good at, and our PP was pretty decent back then.

[ramcharger440]

The set up's he was getting were rushed too it is hard to tee off that fast! they need to feed him less often. the forwards have to be able to collapse the defence to give the point guys a bit more time. Kovy used to be awesome at that it gave Souray tons of time to shoot.

[ramcharger440]

I do agree he should do a fake pass here and there to screw with the D a little.

[H_T_L]

15 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I do agree he should do a fake pass here and there to screw with the D a little.

Yeah. Not sure he can pull it off but might be worth exploring. The issue with Weber is that while he's an elite shooter, he's not an elite passer. 

[maas_art]

Im less concerned with his shot (which will come) and more concerned with his positioning, which has been "off" the first 2 games.

That said I am sure he'll get back in stride, but right now he seems a little bit out of position, which, when you arent a speedy smooth skater, is a bit problem.  Alzner's positioning went down the drain a few years ago & he went from a top 4 to a non-NHL quality dman over night>  I dont think that will happen with Shea, but until he gets his vision /placement back to where it should be, Im going to be a little worried. 

[ramcharger440]

58 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Im less concerned with his shot (which will come) and more concerned with his positioning, which has been "off" the first 2 games.

That said I am sure he'll get back in stride, but right now he seems a little bit out of position, which, when you arent a speedy smooth skater, is a bit problem.  Alzner's positioning went down the drain a few years ago & he went from a top 4 to a non-NHL quality dman over night>  I dont think that will happen with Shea, but until he gets his vision /placement back to where it should be, Im going to be a little worried. 

Is it off or is that the plan? i sure hope it is not the plan because that is a low % spot for his shot!

[kinot-2]

I miss Markov's back door play. 

[BigTed3]

3 hours ago, H_T_L said:

Yeah. Not sure he can pull it off but might be worth exploring. The issue with Weber is that while he's an elite shooter, he's not an elite passer. 

That's the problem. No one is expecting Weber to be able to make elite passes regularly. No one believes he's going to fake the shot and skate around the D and drive the net with the puck. He's got an elite shot but he's not elite in too many of the other categories of offensive skill. Smart player, good shot, but not a fantastic puck handler, notvery good speed or agility, not great at passing accuracy. It's not to say he's bad at any of these things, but he's not elite. This comes back to the argument for why Subban was the better player than Weber... Subban was elite in more categories than Weber, and not once did we ever spend as much time worrying about who Subban had to play with to make his play work. Subban drove the play himself. Weber seems to need help. He needs someone to set up his shot. He needs someone who can skate well to cover defensively and someone who can carry the puck next to him. Mete does many of those things, but he himself isn't cut out to be a top pairing player in other areas. It's a problem.

[Noob616]

I don't have much concern about his actual shooting, to me the main issue is it's just telegraphed and the entire building knows the PP is exclusively about him shooting. 

[HARBORSPORT]

2 hours ago, Noob616 said:

I don't have much concern about his actual shooting, to me the main issue is it's just telegraphed and the entire building knows the PP is exclusively about him shooting. 

this 

11 hours ago, H_T_L said:

I know it's early in the season, but has anybody else noticed that his shot seems to be less intimidating so far? He was physical in the T.O. game, which was nice to see, but he seems to be struggling with his shot accuracy. 

He seems to be gelling well with Mete IMO

he may have reached the point in his career where power and skill are replaced by old age and treachery

[Habs_Hockey_Nutz]

12 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

That's the problem. No one is expecting Weber to be able to make elite passes regularly. No one believes he's going to fake the shot and skate around the D and drive the net with the puck. He's got an elite shot but he's not elite in too many of the other categories of offensive skill. Smart player, good shot, but not a fantastic puck handler, notvery good speed or agility, not great at passing accuracy. It's not to say he's bad at any of these things, but he's not elite. This comes back to the argument for why Subban was the better player than Weber... Subban was elite in more categories than Weber, and not once did we ever spend as much time worrying about who Subban had to play with to make his play work. Subban drove the play himself. Weber seems to need help. He needs someone to set up his shot. He needs someone who can skate well to cover defensively and someone who can carry the puck next to him. Mete does many of those things, but he himself isn't cut out to be a top pairing player in other areas. It's a problem.

Agree with this... Weber, IMHO, is overrated unfortunately and Mete, though competent, remains not much more than a speedy player that lacks size. This is definitely not a top two paring on many teams.

[habs1952]

3 hours ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

Agree with this... Weber, IMHO, is overrated unfortunately and Mete, though competent, remains not much more than a speedy player that lacks size. This is definitely not a top two paring on many teams.

Shoulda traded him while we had the chance for a good return.

[maas_art]

7 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

Shoulda traded him while we had the chance for a good return.

I believe there's still a decent return out there.  But i dont think for a minute MB would even consider trading him. 

[FireHabs]

Isn't it time to get over this we have Weber not Subban who would do his spins on the blue line and loose the puck.  I'm happy with Weber as he is a stand up player maybe not as fast or mobile as some but gets the job done.  We are going to have a great year if every one says healthy.

[arpem-can]

 Montreal has only had 6 PP opportunities and have scored on 2 this year ….to me it's too early in the season to start second guessing ..the team can still make adjustments and a couple of PP goals from Weber would change the conversation about him pretty quick  

[jeff33]

4 hours ago, FireHabs said:

Isn't it time to get over this we have Weber not Subban who would do his spins on the blue line and loose the puck.  I'm happy with Weber as he is a stand up player maybe not as fast or mobile as some but gets the job done.  We are going to have a great year if every one says healthy.

what job is he getting done exactly? he was supposed to replace subban the distraction and get us over the hump with his "intangibles" 

since the big upgrade we have won exactly 2 playoff games in 3 years and he has quantitatively lost the #1 job to petry.  

He is so respected and has such a great rep that you never hear anything remotely negative about him,  and the narrative of our team is still this "price and weber" window, but the painful truth is he hasn't been a top D in the league for years, his impact on the game isnt particularly significant anymore, and a smart GM would realize the real window is where you max out on the perceived value of a declining asset.  the rangers did this with mcdonagh, I wish we would too.

BUTTTTT we all know he isnt going anywhere so whatever. he will still have a couple more years of decent production due to his point presence, and as much as I make fun of the magic intangibles, he is a respected vet and thats not a bad thing to have on a young team.

[maas_art]

3 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

as I make fun of the magic intangibles, he is a respected vet and thats not a bad thing to have on a young team.

imho this, especially now, with all our young players, is why MB will never trade him.  Honestly at this point he probably is worth nearly as much to us as what he could bring in a trade (I cant imagine he'd get you more than a mid-tier player, a pick and a decent but not amazing prospect). The young guys all certainly seem to speak very highly of him. 

Julien seems to be making small adjustments to give Petry the tougher assignments. Id feel much more comfortable with Kulak next to Petry than Chiarot in that case though. 

[Noob616]

I guess since we're back at the trade I'll say I definitely was far too negative on him at the time of the trade and he's been a lot better than I expected. IMO he's still a legitimate top pair (but not an elite #1 in that I think he's likely outside the top 30 dmen at this stage), but I definitely did not expect him to still be a capable top pair guy at 34. More modern xG models are a lot more bullish on him than the corsi-based ones of the past and he does legitimately have a talent for reducing shot quality against, that plus his great offensive skill keeps him as a solid top pair guy at this stage who seems to be aging relatively well for a guy his size with a lot of city miles. 

That being said I maintain it was a huge mistake because of the overall direction of the team. It was supposed to be a "win now" moonshot and the team's won two playoff games while Nashville went on to a 6 game finals run which they could easily have won if Johansen didn't get hurt. That's not to say I really blame Weber because it's not his fault the GM let Markov and Radulov walk with no real replacement, or went out and signed Chiarot to be Alzner 2.0, etc., but if the team is middling and on the bubble with a 34 year old 1D it was probalby not the wisest move to get 4 years older at a key position with a trade that didn't need to be made.

At the end of the day the Weber trade was and remains a massive opportunity cost. Weber himself has been better than I expected (minus the injury year), but it's hard not to wonder about what could have been if the Habs decided to pull the chute and truly rebuild, if Pacioretty fetched Tatar and Suzuki I can't help but wonder what a prime Subban would have returned in a trade. Elephant in the room being the Taylor Hall trade.

[ramcharger440]

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

imho this, especially now, with all our young players, is why MB will never trade him.  Honestly at this point he probably is worth nearly as much to us as what he could bring in a trade (I cant imagine he'd get you more than a mid-tier player, a pick and a decent but not amazing prospect). The young guys all certainly seem to speak very highly of him. 

Julien seems to be making small adjustments to give Petry the tougher assignments. Id feel much more comfortable with Kulak next to Petry than Chiarot in that case though. 

Petry seems pretty happy with Chiarot and Kulak and Fleury are not a bad pair at all. there may be some movement but all in all i like the pairings we have now with the players we have here.

[BigTed3]

1 hour ago, Noob616 said:

I guess since we're back at the trade I'll say I definitely was far too negative on him at the time of the trade and he's been a lot better than I expected. IMO he's still a legitimate top pair (but not an elite #1 in that I think he's likely outside the top 30 dmen at this stage), but I definitely did not expect him to still be a capable top pair guy at 34. More modern xG models are a lot more bullish on him than the corsi-based ones of the past and he does legitimately have a talent for reducing shot quality against, that plus his great offensive skill keeps him as a solid top pair guy at this stage who seems to be aging relatively well for a guy his size with a lot of city miles. 

That being said I maintain it was a huge mistake because of the overall direction of the team. It was supposed to be a "win now" moonshot and the team's won two playoff games while Nashville went on to a 6 game finals run which they could easily have won if Johansen didn't get hurt. That's not to say I really blame Weber because it's not his fault the GM let Markov and Radulov walk with no real replacement, or went out and signed Chiarot to be Alzner 2.0, etc., but if the team is middling and on the bubble with a 34 year old 1D it was probalby not the wisest move to get 4 years older at a key position with a trade that didn't need to be made.

At the end of the day the Weber trade was and remains a massive opportunity cost. Weber himself has been better than I expected (minus the injury year), but it's hard not to wonder about what could have been if the Habs decided to pull the chute and truly rebuild, if Pacioretty fetched Tatar and Suzuki I can't help but wonder what a prime Subban would have returned in a trade. Elephant in the room being the Taylor Hall trade.

With the ability to look back a few years, I actually feel the same way I did when the trade was made. My feeling now, as it was then, is that Weber is still very much a capable player but he's inferior to Subban in most facets of the game. I don't think the sentiment was that people thought Weber was bad, I think people worried about the following:

1. Subban was the faster player, more agile, better puck carrier, better at getting to loose pucks, and so on. Weber had the better shot and the better reputation among old-school hockey minds.

2. Subban was younger and on the better contract.

3. Subban was under-valued by this team because of his perceived attitude differences from Therrien/Bergevin and was traded for the wrong reasons.

4. The Habs should have gotten a better return for him than they did.

When you look at the deal, like you said, the only thing that would have made even the slightest bit of sense would have been if the Habs had really built up their roster to make a serious Cup push with Weber in the first year or two he was here. But they didn't. Even if Weber is still a good player, his utility at ES is waning and it's hard to picture him getting any better going forward. So we've essentially shortened our window of having a dominant #1 D man by a couple of years. If anything, I'd say Petry has looked more like a #1 D man than Weber the past two years. Weber gets the name-brand recognition, but Petry has really been the guy to do the things a #1 D man does, even if he's not a star. Where Petry has been hurt is that like Weber and unlike Subban, he isn't able to carry a dud for a partner. Playing with the likes of Alzner and Benn really hurt Petry, and I'm not sold on Chiarot being a good solution either. IMO, Petry was much more effective playing next to Mete and even Kulak and Reilly to some degree, but I wonder if we were able to pair Petry with a solid #2-3 D man whether he might not even shine more like a #1 D.

Weber in my view right now is a strong PP option. He's probably a top 10-15 D man in the league in terms of what he brings to a PP. He's also an effective penalty kill guy because he can do a lot of what's required on the PK: get in passing lanes, clear the crease from rebounds, play tough in the corner, and dump the puck out. But as an ES player, I think Petry is a top 31 guy in the league and I think Weber is not any more. And so for me, I view Weber now as a solid #2 D man. A great asset to the team but not what people make him out to be and certainly not what Marc Bergevin believes he is. And what's worse is that the best we can probably hope for going forward with the years he has left on his contract is that he either maintains his pace with minimal drop-off in his play or that he retires before his deal runs out, saving us cap money but not bringing in any return via trade either.

[Noob616]

55 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

With the ability to look back a few years, I actually feel the same way I did when the trade was made. My feeling now, as it was then, is that Weber is still very much a capable player but he's inferior to Subban in most facets of the game. I don't think the sentiment was that people thought Weber was bad, I think people worried about the following:

I'm just saying I thought he was going to be a more of 2nd pair guy really fall off pretty quickly after the trade. I guess you could argue he has already fallen off a lot since he was once a top 5 dman on the planet and now he's probably somewhere in the ~40s or whatever. I definitely underrated his overall effectiveness and I was too pessimistic about his aging curve (granted I think Habs fans overall are way too optimistic and think he's not going to decline at all until 40+ which I highly doubt). 

Agree with everything else, Weber's been basically the best case scenario as far as my projection from the time of the trade but I still think it was such a big mistake for the reasons you outlined. It just makes for such an awkward aging curve for the team, if you squint your eyes enough you could talk yourself into buying Kotkaniemi/Suzuki/Domi/Gallagher/Caufield as a legit core with a puncher's chance at a cup in front of Price but it's just so awkward to be "rebuilding" with Weber/Petry/Price all into their 30s. 

Even if they somehow "needed" to trade PK it should have been for futures for a real rebuild (to do what the Rangers are doing when the franchise goalie is 29 instead of 39). Agree on Chiarot too, I think he's a significant downgrade on Kulak and the knock-on effects of him taking Kulak's minutes will be significant as the season goes on. 

[BigTed3]

8 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

I'm just saying I thought he was going to be a more of 2nd pair guy really fall off pretty quickly after the trade. I guess you could argue he has already fallen off a lot since he was once a top 5 dman on the planet and now he's probably somewhere in the ~40s or whatever. I definitely underrated his overall effectiveness and I was too pessimistic about his aging curve (granted I think Habs fans overall are way too optimistic and think he's not going to decline at all until 40+ which I highly doubt). 

Agree with everything else, Weber's been basically the best case scenario as far as my projection from the time of the trade but I still think it was such a big mistake for the reasons you outlined. It just makes for such an awkward aging curve for the team, if you squint your eyes enough you could talk yourself into buying Kotkaniemi/Suzuki/Domi/Gallagher/Caufield as a legit core with a puncher's chance at a cup in front of Price but it's just so awkward to be "rebuilding" with Weber/Petry/Price all into their 30s. 

Even if they somehow "needed" to trade PK it should have been for futures for a real rebuild (to do what the Rangers are doing when the franchise goalie is 29 instead of 39). Agree on Chiarot too, I think he's a significant downgrade on Kulak and the knock-on effects of him taking Kulak's minutes will be significant as the season goes on. 

Yeah, I agree with what you wrote here. And that's what we've been talking about for a while now... what exactly is Bergevin's plan? He talks about how he's not going to sacrifice picks and prospects and that we have to be patient, which I get. It's not a bad plan in general if you're not a contender. But on the other hand, Bergevin has been pretty clear he loves Price and Weber and won't look at trading them, and Price has been talking about how the Habs have to be in win-now mode because his window is closing. So as a result, we're kind of in no-man's land. We're neither a top 5-10 contender for the Cup (we're not even one of the 3 favorites in our own division) nor are we sitting pretty for a re-tool or re-build or whatever you want to call it.

I agree with you that we have a decent set of young players, but those guys are ready to lead a team to a Cup in 3-5 years maybe. Price and Weber will not be focal points of a winner then. In fact, Primeau and Romanov and Brook will be more likely to be useful to us by then. So that brings up the question of why we're keeping Price and Weber. It almost seems like Bergevin's goal is just to creep into the playoffs and try to give the impression that that's a success in today's NHL. He can sell to Molson and the fans that our team is competitive and he can sell the promise that there's hope of better things on the horizon. But what he isn't selling is when it's all going to come together for us to be a top-tier team. You look at Toronto and they suffered for a couple of years and it brought them Marner and Matthews and Rielly and no they are in the conversation to win a Cup. You look at how Chicago and Pittsburgh let themselves hit rock-bottom in order to get a legit shot at top picks and building a winner. The Rangers are in the midst of doing something similar now.

So you go back and if we forget Weber, I think you absolutely have to wonder what could have been if we had done a better job on the Subban trade. It's not even about Subban being here any more, but there was talk before the Weber trade that the Oilers had discussed giving us Draisaitl and other pieces for Subban. So imagine if we had acquired Draisaitl, a 1st rounder, and a D man for Subban... at the time, that wouldn't have been that far-fetched at all.

[Noob616]

6 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

So you go back and if we forget Weber, I think you absolutely have to wonder what could have been if we had done a better job on the Subban trade. It's not even about Subban being here any more, but there was talk before the Weber trade that the Oilers had discussed giving us Draisaitl and other pieces for Subban. So imagine if we had acquired Draisaitl, a 1st rounder, and a D man for Subban... at the time, that wouldn't have been that far-fetched at all.

Or even Hall, I would be incredibly shocked if Hall for Subban wasn't on the table at the time from the Oilers' perspective. Hard to do revisionist history becrause maybe then Pacioretty isn't traded (or at least not for the same package) and that trade was a grand slam, but imagine if the top line was something like Hall - Domi - Gallagher etc. Drouin trade probably doesn't happen either if they got Hall back for Subban.