2020-21 State Of The Habs

[electron58]

So, I guess we are all in agreement,  that the State of the Habs, is "Messy" at best. It seems like the same topic every year. The defence. Because the Habs can't get it out of their zone, they give up way too many high danger chances. We thought,  maybe the goaltending had something to do with it,  so we got a "reliable " backup, but we are still in the same boat. We have no top end players here. We had opportunities to acquire top end talent, but because we overvalue our players so much, we won't give them up.  "Almost" all our forwards are interchangeable, except for maybe Gallagher. He's the heart & soul. Those players are almost priceless.  (The ones that can score, anyways) I  believe,  we needed to go after PLD. I think we needed to go after PL. I think we needed to go after VD. Keeping the same mediocre bunch is insanity. Almost EVERY year, we start off like gangbusters, and it is very obvious that we can not sustain it. Heck, we can't even play 500 hockey. And I  always mention,  that we can't keep everyone and we can't sign all our draft picks. So, let's use some of those assets and UPGRADE. That's why we will be waiting forever to go anywhere in the playoffs.  We are afraid to upgrade because our players/prospects,  are the most valuable,  in the league.

[kinot-2]

3 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

No no no don't limit yourself to french and english there is french and italian french and german french and farci french and russian...............

[HabsAlways]

4 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

We're running out of recycled bilingual coaches.

We haven't gone back to Carbonneau yet

[claremont]

2 hours ago, electron58 said:

So, I guess we are all in agreement,  that the State of the Habs, is "Messy" at best. It seems like the same topic every year. The defence. Because the Habs can't get it out of their zone, they give up way too many high danger chances. We thought,  maybe the goaltending had something to do with it,  so we got a "reliable " backup, but we are still in the same boat. We have no top end players here. We had opportunities to acquire top end talent, but because we overvalue our players so much, we won't give them up.  "Almost" all our forwards are interchangeable, except for maybe Gallagher. He's the heart & soul. Those players are almost priceless.  (The ones that can score, anyways) I  believe,  we needed to go after PLD. I think we needed to go after PL. I think we needed to go after VD. Keeping the same mediocre bunch is insanity. Almost EVERY year, we start off like gangbusters, and it is very obvious that we can not sustain it. Heck, we can't even play 500 hockey. And I  always mention,  that we can't keep everyone and we can't sign all our draft picks. So, let's use some of those assets and UPGRADE. That's why we will be waiting forever to go anywhere in the playoffs.  We are afraid to upgrade because our players/prospects,  are the most valuable,  in the league.

I feel good about our defense for the future - Norlinder, Harris, Guhle, Struble can't get here fast enough (Brook, Fleury and Fairweather - the jury is still out for me but they are not star players). These to compliment Romanov, Petry for another 2 years, and Edmundson / Kulak for 1 year). Perhaps one of them is trade bait. We can't dump Weber, and Chiarot fast enough either. I am worried about the offense - we have few tradeable assets, there isn't much in the F/A pool and we don't exactly have a ton of cap room to find much that can make an impact. We have to dump the passenger players. I am ok with trying to revive one young underachiever in a trade from another team and hoping they turn things around, but we've done way too much "revival hope" in players like Armia, Byron, Drouin as examples. Seeing as to what Danault and Tatar have accomplished this year, I would categorize them as underachieving "revival hope" players as well. Sometimes you take risks on these types of players that they can rediscover themselves and reach higher potential, but seems like we do too much of that.  

[electron58]

10 hours ago, claremont said:

I feel good about our defense for the future - Norlinder, Harris, Guhle, Struble can't get here fast enough (Brook, Fleury and Fairweather - the jury is still out for me but they are not star players). These to compliment Romanov, Petry for another 2 years, and Edmundson / Kulak for 1 year). Perhaps one of them is trade bait. We can't dump Weber, and Chiarot fast enough either. I am worried about the offense - we have few tradeable assets, there isn't much in the F/A pool and we don't exactly have a ton of cap room to find much that can make an impact. We have to dump the passenger players. I am ok with trying to revive one young underachiever in a trade from another team and hoping they turn things around, but we've done way too much "revival hope" in players like Armia, Byron, Drouin as examples. Seeing as to what Danault and Tatar have accomplished this year, I would categorize them as underachieving "revival hope" players as well. Sometimes you take risks on these types of players that they can rediscover themselves and reach higher potential, but seems like we do too much of that.  

I know it's good to have hope, and I was totally excited for this season.  But to keep hoping for saviors from unproven prospects is time consuming at best.  When you have the opportunity to grab a PLD or PL you have to go for it and if it means giving up the odd prospect or 2, you do it. All the top teams do it, because by upgrading the talent level you increase your competitiveness. We have no elite talent. Not because we don't draft well, but because we don't make a quantity for quality trade. Because  we have so many interchangeable parts we can afford to make that trade. But bergevin is afraid to make those kinds of deals. Even the rumored Draisaitl deal would have helped us immensely.  Instead, we got Weber.  And as everyone expected, here we have Weber.

[Regis22]

16 hours ago, claremont said:

I feel good about our defense for the future - Norlinder, Harris, Guhle, Struble can't get here fast enough (Brook, Fleury and Fairweather - the jury is still out for me but they are not star players). 

The jury should be out on all of them . Still prospects . No guarantee that one yet all can make the jump to the NHL 

[Regis22]

Just now, Regis22 said:

The jury should be out on all of them . All are still prospects . There is no guarantee that one yet all can make the jump to the NHL 

 

[richard464]

4 hours ago, electron58 said:

I know it's good to have hope, and I was totally excited for this season.  But to keep hoping for saviors from unproven prospects is time consuming at best.  When you have the opportunity to grab a PLD or PL you have to go for it and if it means giving up the odd prospect or 2, you do it. All the top teams do it, because by upgrading the talent level you increase your competitiveness. We have no elite talent. Not because we don't draft well, but because we don't make a quantity for quality trade. Because  we have so many interchangeable parts we can afford to make that trade. But bergevin is afraid to make those kinds of deals. Even the rumored Draisaitl deal would have helped us immensely.  Instead, we got Weber.  And as everyone expected, here we have Weber.

Goes back to my post on the 15th. The only way this process is going to change is for a change at the top. We need a manager that has his finger on the pulse of the game today not one that likes to play safe and not make any major changes as it may make him look bad. We can type post after post here which we have done now for the past twelve seasons and nothing will change. We will still have a mediocre team with a fingers, toes crossed philosophy that the prospects will be our saviours. You continually here the great reviews of the hockey writers claiming what a great job MB has done to support the future of the franchise. Really? If you are planning the future on your prospects then you are planning for another twelve years of building with no guaranteed result. Remember a few season ago when the Oilers had all of those first round picks due to the draft. The team was in turmoil. You need a good mix of top veterans and prospects to make this work.We have no elite talent currently. We now have some great additions, Toffoli, Anderson & Allen but we have no elite player like Kucherov, McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, McKinnon etc. Gallagher is our heart and soul and he manages to contribute the 20+ goal seasons but he is not an elite player.

Getting tired of repeating the same ole same ole every season! This franchise needs a kick in the ass reboot. That will not happen with MB or DD.

[jennifer_rocket]

53 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

The jury should be out on all of them . Still prospects . No guarantee that one yet all can make the jump to the NHL 

Agreed. Every year the same thing gets said: "The Future is Bright!" La-de-da. Guess what? The future hasn't panned out for us. Not in the last 20 years. Prospects are great, but they are just potential until they actually make the NHL and have an impact. Even Kotkaniemi and Suzuki haven't really taken any significant step forward this season, IMO.

[claremont]

11 minutes ago, richard464 said:

Goes back to my post on the 15th. The only way this process is going to change is for a change at the top. We need a manager that has his finger on the pulse of the game today not one that likes to play safe and not make any major changes as it may make him look bad. We can type post after post here which we have done now for the past twelve seasons and nothing will change. We will still have a mediocre team with a fingers, toes crossed philosophy that the prospects will be our saviours. You continually here the great reviews of the hockey writers claiming what a great job MB has done to support the future of the franchise. Really? If you are planning the future on your prospects then you are planning for another twelve years of building with no guaranteed result. Remember a few season ago when the Oilers had all of those first round picks due to the draft. The team was in turmoil. You need a good mix of top veterans and prospects to make this work.We have no elite talent currently. We now have some great additions, Toffoli, Anderson & Allen but we have no elite player like Kucherov, McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, McKinnon etc. Gallagher is our heart and soul and he manages to contribute the 20+ goal seasons but he is not an elite player.

Getting tired of repeating the same ole same ole every season! This franchise needs a kick in the ass reboot. That will not happen with MB or DD.

You, I and others are entitled to complain about no elite talent, but you don't offer any solution other than changing the GM/coach - Do we have an assistant in waiting? Scott Mellanby is not bilingual and Trevor Timmins conversational french is passable. (Ya I know get over the french thing like Bob Gainey when he was GM etc., but Molson has said it's a prerequisite for the GM job and he's not selling this gravy train so the argument is already lost). So the fiery Roy, Brisson, Bobby Smith - let the search begin.

Practically speaking with the playoffs likely starting May 24th with all the COVID interruptions, and let's assume the habs get knocked out early June. How long will it take to search and interview possible GM candidates and make a decision? I suggest 2-3 weeks now we are end of June with expansion draft protection lists to be submitted July 17th and the draft is July 23rd - not a heck of a lot of time for a new GM to get familiar with all the personnel. This is a busy compressed year for decisions - My projection is due to this rush, and that Bergevin delivered on his promise to make the playoffs, the organization will suffer through 1 more year of Bergevin - sorry to bust everyone's bubble of expectations!

[claremont]

33 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Agreed. Every year the same thing gets said: "The Future is Bright!" La-de-da. Guess what? The future hasn't panned out for us. Not in the last 20 years. Prospects are great, but they are just potential until they actually make the NHL and have an impact. Even Kotkaniemi and Suzuki haven't really taken any significant step forward this season, IMO.

Elite talent is a hard expectation - most of the ones people mention are the results of tanking and Bergevin clearly hasn't struck any nuggets so why should we expect that to change?  We had a chance with #3 Galchenyuk,#9 Sergachev - traded arrgh!, and #3 Jesperi - young. The only elite talent we struck in the draft in the last 20 was Carey Price and for a short duration of elite level PK Subban both under Gainey's regime. 

My point here is we still need patience with the recent crop of prospects. If other teams were impatient with their prospects #58 Kucherov,  #79 Point, #17 Kyle Connor, #77 Guentzel, #35 Aho, #178 Stone, #25 Pastrnak etc., would never have come out. Certainly I hope Caufield is our first worthy jumper and I share your anxiety on KK and Suzuki, and an absolute error in judgement for #3 Drouin

It will be a hard task for any future GM of ours to find elite talent given the assets we have ( struck out on #16 Armia, #70 Weal #26 Danault #25 Poehling - all hopes of raising their games). if we don't draft them, then we are continually trying to trade for someone else's underachievers and hoping for them to come out as elite discoveries. 

[Regis22]

Montreal is 8 points up on Vancouver and Vancouver has 4 games in hand 

[jennifer_rocket]

1 hour ago, claremont said:

Elite talent is a hard expectation - most of the ones people mention are the results of tanking and Bergevin clearly hasn't struck any nuggets so why should we expect that to change?  We had a chance with #3 Galchenyuk,#9 Sergachev - traded arrgh!, and #3 Jesperi - young. The only elite talent we struck in the draft in the last 20 was Carey Price and for a short duration of elite level PK Subban both under Gainey's regime. 

My point here is we still need patience with the recent crop of prospects. If other teams were impatient with their prospects #58 Kucherov,  #79 Point, #17 Kyle Connor, #77 Guentzel, #35 Aho, #178 Stone, #25 Pastrnak etc., would never have come out. Certainly I hope Caufield is our first worthy jumper and I share your anxiety on KK and Suzuki, and an absolute error in judgement for #3 Drouin

It will be a hard task for any future GM of ours to find elite talent given the assets we have ( struck out on #16 Armia, #70 Weal #26 Danault #25 Poehling - all hopes of raising their games). if we don't draft them, then we are continually trying to trade for someone else's underachievers and hoping for them to come out as elite discoveries. 

And even Price was only elite for about the four years leading up to 2017-18. Now he's not even close to elite.

[habs1952]

1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

And even Price was only elite for about the four years leading up to 2017-18. Now he's not even close to elite.

Bergevin has worn him out with a lack of support. Injuries I'm sure haven't helped. 

[Regis22]

Apparently a reporter asked 

JD about his 2 goals ? JD’s response there’s another stat to the right of the 2 goals ( the assists I guess ). Lol

[CaptWelly]

11 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Apparently a reporter asked 

JD about his 2 goals ? JD’s response there’s another stat to the right of the 2 goals ( the assists I guess ). Lol

If the player contributing it's still good. Without the assist a lot of goals don't happen. It happens quite often when players on the same line or pp one will have a lot of goals and the other a lot of assist. Only usually only the player with goals will be looked at positively. Hull with Oates who did everyone talk about , but who set Hull up? Drouin is leading the team in assist , that means he's helping others score the goals. 

[ramcharger440]

1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

If the player contributing it's still good. Without the assist a lot of goals don't happen. It happens quite often when players on the same line or pp one will have a lot of goals and the other a lot of assist. Only usually only the player with goals will be looked at positively. Hull with Oates who did everyone talk about , but who set Hull up? Drouin is leading the team in assist , that means he's helping others score the goals. 

I hear ya but he was on the 4th line last night and we scored more with him there......he has the skill and when he turns it on he is pretty great. a player with the skill he has that can look so soft and other times so good is tough to watch! in the off season I would be looking to trade him for someone more consistent.

[CaptWelly]

57 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I hear ya but he was on the 4th line last night and we scored more with him there......he has the skill and when he turns it on he is pretty great. a player with the skill he has that can look so soft and other times so good is tough to watch! in the off season I would be looking to trade him for someone more consistent.

Hard to say he's not contributing when he's tied for most assist on the team. He has been a lot better this year defensively also. Would we all want to see him score more absolutely! There have been several that have spent time on the 4th line and the team has still scored and won games. I wish everyone played as hard as Gallagher every night every shift but that doesn't happen much. Suzuki/JK have had big dry spells this year also. The previous post was referencing the "lol" after commenting there are other stats not just goals and he is correct. Take away JK's assist he's not burning up the league. It doesn't mean he's not contributing. If the return was right he could be traded but 1t would have to be a decent return. He's still young and has skill and hasn't been hurting the team. He actually looked pretty good with Anderson /Suzuki early on. 

[ramcharger440]

1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

Hard to say he's not contributing when he's tied for most assist on the team. He has been a lot better this year defensively also. Would we all want to see him score more absolutely! There have been several that have spent time on the 4th line and the team has still scored and won games. I wish everyone played as hard as Gallagher every night every shift but that doesn't happen much. Suzuki/JK have had big dry spells this year also. The previous post was referencing the "lol" after commenting there are other stats not just goals and he is correct. Take away JK's assist he's not burning up the league. It doesn't mean he's not contributing. If the return was right he could be traded but 1t would have to be a decent return. He's still young and has skill and hasn't been hurting the team. He actually looked pretty good with Anderson /Suzuki early on. 

I don't mean he is not contributing he just disappears when things get tough. Suzuki and JK are still in the heat of  things but Drouin tends to slip over to the perimeter when the hitting starts and the kids are still kids if they are as unreliable as Drouin in two or three years I will feel the same way about them. Drouin is not a kid anymore if this is all he has we should look for a better option in the off season.

[H_T_L]

Sounds like Primeau could get a start vs the Flames in the upcoming B2B.

[CaptWelly]

3 hours ago, H_T_L said:

Sounds like Primeau could get a start vs the Flames in the upcoming B2B.

Nice!

 

[claremont]

19 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I don't mean he is not contributing he just disappears when things get tough. Suzuki and JK are still in the heat of  things but Drouin tends to slip over to the perimeter when the hitting starts and the kids are still kids if they are as unreliable as Drouin in two or three years I will feel the same way about them. Drouin is not a kid anymore if this is all he has we should look for a better option in the off season.

Very fair comment - JD is 26 and has had almost 7 seasons (ok 6 as last season he was injured early) to reach further potential. His peak seasons averaged 20 goals, 35 assists (1 with Tampa, the other with us 2018-19). With KK coming up to 21, I see more flashes of potential and ability to play when the going gets tough (e.g., last game in Edomonton). NS is coming up 22 and has hit a bit of the sophomore wall but the eyes tell me that talent, vision and heart are there. I've got easily 2-3 years of patience with KK and NS to evaluate progression. I may only have 1 more year of patience with Drouin if he doesn't turn it up soon or in the playoffs.

[electron58]

39 minutes ago, claremont said:

Very fair comment - JD is 26 and has had almost 7 seasons (ok 6 as last season he was injured early) to reach further potential. His peak seasons averaged 20 goals, 35 assists (1 with Tampa, the other with us 2018-19). With KK coming up to 21, I see more flashes of potential and ability to play when the going gets tough (e.g., last game in Edomonton). NS is coming up 22 and has hit a bit of the sophomore wall but the eyes tell me that talent, vision and heart are there. I've got easily 2-3 years of patience with KK and NS to evaluate progression. I may only have 1 more year of patience with Drouin if he doesn't turn it up soon or in the playoffs.

Yeah. My patience with JD ran out a long time ago. Definitely disappears when we needed him most. Year after year. And, his assists total is very misleading. After this year, I don't even care how,  they get rid of him.

[maas_art]

On 4/21/2021 at 7:17 AM, Regis22 said:

The jury should be out on all of them . Still prospects . No guarantee that one yet all can make the jump to the NHL 

Absolutely.  Remember when people thought guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu were "future 1st pairing dmen" and in the end could barely crack an NHL roster? 

That said, we do have numbers now. I have a hard time believing that at least a couple of these guys wont be impact players.  Will they be top pairing or just top 4? no idea. But I think we're in better shape, prospect-wise than we have been in a while. 

[H_T_L]

So,,,, JD benched tonight in favour of a 7th D. Can't say i'm shocked but certainly surprised DD grew a pair and sent a message.