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2021-22 State of the Habs


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8 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Gorton said he plans to implement an analytics department: “We need to build that out better. We need to modernize it. I believe in it.”

"The team had a tough start, I recognize that and Geoff (Molson) and I went through that. Things need to happen. My teams are fast and skilled. We need to work on player development. We need to add analytics." - Jeff Gorton

Gorton‘s timeline for priorities:

1. GM — after Christmas

2. Head scout — TBD

Is the head coach safe until the end of the season: “Yes.”

Sounds like the opposite of Bergevin. Nice!

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4 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Suzuki is the only one who is untouchable for me. Cole hasn't shown enough in his young career for me to consider him untouchable. I hope he turns into a 25+ goal scorer in this league, but nothing is guaranteed.

I'm not actively trying to deal away the whole team, but there are players here who we could get value from in a trade before the deadline.

Ben Chiarot (first rounder)
Brett Kulak (mid rounder..?)
Jonathan Drouin (no idea, but I'm sure we could get something)
Arturri Lehkonen (mid rounder)

Pretty good list. Drouin - we would be selling low on and based on potential upside. Need to hope he demonstrates some value before the trade deadline to be appealing to a team that would want to take on $5.5M in salary for the next year.  I would be inclined to add Joel Edmundson and Armia / Hoffman to that mix, but again they need to demonstrate some value before the deadline. Only Chiarot and Lehkonen are showing value at this point. Teams would be better off to pluck Justin Holl or Travis McDermott off the leafs whgo are rumoured to be up for trade too. 

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I don't like that we dont have a GM until after Chrstmas. Does that mean no moves until then also? We're almost begging for Chiarot to get injured.

I wouldn't move Drouin cause he's young enough, speaks french, shoots left (which is a rarity on our team). I'd move Toffoli, he's still putting up points despite the shitty team. With his contract, I think we could really get something for him as well. 

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2 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I don't like that we dont have a GM until after Chrstmas. Does that mean no moves until then also? We're almost begging for Chiarot to get injured.

I wouldn't move Drouin cause he's young enough, speaks french, shoots left (which is a rarity on our team). I'd move Toffoli, he's still putting up points despite the shitty team. With his contract, I think we could really get something for him as well. 

Toffoli would definitely be an interesting trade piece. He doesn't have any NTC or NMC clauses either. Very affordable salary.

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23 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 You cant actively ask players to throw games for better drafting position but... 

No but you can play Montembeault or Primeau more   

Injured players can stay injured longer ( Byron , Price, Perreault now Petry ) or for the rest of the season

 

 

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29 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Toffoli would definitely be an interesting trade piece. He doesn't have any NTC or NMC clauses either. Very affordable salary.

I agree my list of players for this year include

1. Chiarot (1st is being reported)

2. Toffoli  (1st + prospect minimum)

3. Lehkonen (2nd or 3rd)

4. Kulak  (4th)

5. Perrault (4th)

6. Wideman (6th or 7th don't think we could ask for more)

7. Pacquette (bag of used pucks)

I think everyone else would be safe for this year unless teams came calling about specific players with good offers.

Also for Chiarot and Toffoli I would look at teams that are playoff teams this year but not likely to be next year (Pittsburgh, Philly, Boston, Columbus) and ask for their 2023 unprotected even if we have to give up say a 2nd or good prospect to sweeten the deal. Next year the draft is more top heavy and more potential lottery picks for next year would be beneficial than mid to late picks this year.

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38 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I agree my list of players for this year include

1. Chiarot (1st is being reported)

2. Toffoli  (1st + prospect minimum)

3. Lehkonen (2nd or 3rd)

4. Kulak  (4th)

5. Perrault (4th)

6. Wideman (6th or 7th don't think we could ask for more)

7. Pacquette (bag of used pucks)

I think everyone else would be safe for this year unless teams came calling about specific players with good offers.

Also for Chiarot and Toffoli I would look at teams that are playoff teams this year but not likely to be next year (Pittsburgh, Philly, Boston, Columbus) and ask for their 2023 unprotected even if we have to give up say a 2nd or good prospect to sweeten the deal. Next year the draft is more top heavy and more potential lottery picks for next year would be beneficial than mid to late picks this year.

Agreed on the guys in bold, but IMO there's no real need to trade Lehkonen and/or Kulak if all we can get in return is a 3rd/4th rounder respectively. I think Lehkonen is worth more and I'd be willing to trade him for the right price, but they're both young, cheap, and good enough to stick around for a while if the offers aren't there.

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

I don't like that we dont have a GM until after Chrstmas. Does that mean no moves until then also? We're almost begging for Chiarot to get injured.

I wouldn't move Drouin cause he's young enough, speaks french, shoots left (which is a rarity on our team). I'd move Toffoli, he's still putting up points despite the shitty team. With his contract, I think we could really get something for him as well. 

I don't know that there is any hurry to make a move. Injuries are part of the game and risk. Gorton said in his presser that he is getting calls from other GM's and answering them. I'm sure if he got a good immediate offer, he would make the deal but we are only at the 1/4 mark and the contending teams are still evaluating their talent/depth/chances of contending, before dealing something significant for a player like Chiarot. Agree with on Drouin vs. Toffoli but Gorton has to watch games and have many discussions within the org., on the value of players vs. making a decision in isolation for the sake of change.

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12 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

Agreed on the guys in bold, but IMO there's no real need to trade Lehkonen and/or Kulak if all we can get in return is a 3rd/4th rounder respectively. I think Lehkonen is worth more and I'd be willing to trade him for the right price, but they're both young, cheap, and good enough to stick around for a while if the offers aren't there.

Definitely agree on Leks & Kulak.  But, if the price is right...........

&, I move Drouin.   Period.

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36 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

Agreed on the guys in bold, but IMO there's no real need to trade Lehkonen and/or Kulak if all we can get in return is a 3rd/4th rounder respectively. I think Lehkonen is worth more and I'd be willing to trade him for the right price, but they're both young, cheap, and good enough to stick around for a while if the offers aren't there.

I don't mind keep either of tbh but moving them also opens cap space and roster spots for younger players to step in

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1 minute ago, campabee82 said:

I don't mind keep either of tbh but moving them also opens cap space and roster spots for younger players to step in

Not really much cap space in comparison to the others. Plus,  we're going to need some foot soldiers, and, the others don't strike me as such.

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15 minutes ago, electron58 said:

Not really much cap space in comparison to the others. Plus,  we're going to need some foot soldiers, and, the others don't strike me as such.

True it isn't as much space as Chiarot or Toffoli but combined Lehkonen and Kulak have a 4.15 Mil cap hit. Without the 4 of them our lineup still isn't bad 

Drouin-Suzuki-Caufield 

Hoffman-Dvorak-Gallagher

Byron-Poehling-Anderson

Pazzetta-Evans-Armia

Edmundson-Petry

Romanov-Niku

Norlinder-Savard

Wideman

Price

Allen

That would be for just the rest of this year, then we can build on that after the draft and FA

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33 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

True it isn't as much space as Chiarot or Toffoli but combined Lehkonen and Kulak have a 4.15 Mil cap hit. Without the 4 of them our lineup still isn't bad 

Drouin-Suzuki-Caufield 

Hoffman-Dvorak-Gallagher

Byron-Poehling-Anderson

Pazzetta-Evans-Armia

Edmundson-Petry

Romanov-Niku

Norlinder-Savard

Wideman

Price

Allen

That would be for just the rest of this year, then we can build on that after the draft and FA

I think you need to do more. One of the goalies should be moved before the deadline too but yeah, if you make those 5 moves, that pretty much covers what we should do before the deadline. Though personally I would swap Byron over Lehkonen (but of course, it depends on the return), Armia is in that group too, but one of them has to go. Gallagher might be harder to move but I think there is a market for him, ideally where we take a contract back thats at a shorter term. That would be the optional 6th move. 

I think we're asking a lot but at the same time, its like EVERYONE agrees these moves need to be made and there seems to be a market for all of them. I'd be very disappointed if MOST of it doesn't get done. I would thrilled if we get it all done. I want a rebuild but I don't  see any reason to drag things out. It could be a 2 year rebuild, it doesnt have to be 5-10 years if we rip the band-aid off now

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18 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I think you need to do more. One of the goalies should be moved before the deadline too but yeah, if you make those 5 moves, that pretty much covers what we should do before the deadline. Though personally I would swap Byron over Lehkonen (but of course, it depends on the return), Armia is in that group too, but one of them has to go. Gallagher might be harder to move but I think there is a market for him, ideally where we take a contract back thats at a shorter term. That would be the optional 6th move. 

I think we're asking a lot but at the same time, its like EVERYONE agrees these moves need to be made and there seems to be a market for all of them. I'd be very disappointed if MOST of it doesn't get done. I would thrilled if we get it all done. I want a rebuild but I don't  see any reason to drag things out. It could be a 2 year rebuild, it doesnt have to be 5-10 years if we rip the band-aid off now

Exactly what I was thinking, if we target fringe teams this year bit ask for next year's 1st for Toffoli and Chiarot that draft is more top heavy and we could have as many as 3 shots at the lottery for Bedard.

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

True it isn't as much space as Chiarot or Toffoli but combined Lehkonen and Kulak have a 4.15 Mil cap hit. Without the 4 of them our lineup still isn't bad 

Drouin-Suzuki-Caufield 

Hoffman-Dvorak-Gallagher

Byron-Poehling-Anderson

Pazzetta-Evans-Armia

Edmundson-Petry

Romanov-Niku

Norlinder-Savard

Wideman

Price

Allen

That would be for just the rest of this year, then we can build on that after the draft and FA

The line up IS bad now   ( the worst team in the league ) and it will be worse after the moves ..lol

You have to find room for Perreault and Pacquette 

 

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Loved what I heard from Gorton at the press conference today. Nice to hear someone finally state out loud that they can use analytics as a tool, that's it's the future of the game, and that they want to focus more resources on that. Nice to hear that he wants to build a team around skill and speed as opposed to size and grit like the last guy. Nice to hear that he wants to take some time to get to know the players and figure out what's working and what isn't. Nice to hear that he thinks we need to do better at prospect development, because that's been a huge weakness under Bergevin as well. And nice to hear that he's willing to think outside the box and try novel strategies. Stark contrast to what we heard from Bergevin for the past decade. This is the first time I've felt hopeful about Habs management since the day Michel Therrien was hired (that one move told me all I needed to know about how MB was going to run the team).

I also wonder whether Gorton being in charge might help to bring Jordan Harris into the fold. There's a guy whose game is structured around strong analytics and puck control. So now suddenly you have a guy in charge who seems to support the style of game Harris plays and who is going to prioritize developing younger players. AND to boot, Gorton is from the Northeastern states and might have an in with Harris being from that area too. So I think our chances of convincing Harris to sign here just went up as well.

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I don't believe there's such a thing as an untouchable. Everyone has a price. That said, I like to think of it more as which players have peak trade value right now. If I think their value is going to drop, I would deal them now, whereas I would hold onto guys whose value might go up or who provide more value to our line-up than the trade return would. So with that in mind, this is where I stand on some of the key players:

- Chiarot: TRADE. The most obvious decision. Playing as well now as he has since he got here, should garner us a 1st and maybe more. At 30+, he's not helping this team in its new window to win. The trade return here should be worth much more to us.

- Lehkonen: TRADE. I get that he's an RFA and we retain his rights. But the fact there's no commitment to salary and the fact he's a useful playoff piece means he has value to other teams right now. He's less valuable the minute we sign him to a 4-year deal for 3-4M a season (just look at Armia). Ultimately, Lehkonen could be a great piece to make a Cup run, and he was a huge component of our line-up last year in the post-season. But the counterpoint to that is that he doesn't score goals regularly and he'll never be more than a 3rd line or 4th line player. So am I ready next off-season to commit term and money to him (if we don't on his next deal, he'll become a UFA after)? Not really. I think now's the perfect time to trade him and get max return.

- Petry: KEEP. I don't know how to explain his season thus far, but I have to think with his level of offensive production, salary, term, and age, he's not likely to bring us a significant return. We have very little on the right side moving forward (a reason I was pushing to acquire Matt Dumba two years ago in anticipation of Weber's play dropping off) so if you're not using Petry, you're using Savard and who else? Ultimately, I think Petry for the next year or two is still better than the return we would get for him. Maybe we re-consider this if his level of play picks up and he re-establishes value but I don't think selling low is the right strategy here.

- Gallagher: TRADE. Like Petry, he's getting older and signed to a longer-term deal. But I think he still has value now and that we'd still get a good return here. I'd prefer to trade him before he falls off a cliff and we have a multitude of wingers to be able to replace him.

- Toffoli: likely KEEP. Similar story to Gallagher. I think we can keep one of the two, so it depends on who has better trade value, but I worry more about Gallagher's contract and about Gally wearing down, so preference to keep Toffoli.

- Anderson: KEEP. Provides something we don't have otherwise and seems to be a leader in the room. Could be a vet who shows the rookies how to play the right way.

- Suzuki: KEEP. As close to an untouchable as we have.

- Caufield, Romanov, Ylonen, Poehling, Norlinder, Primeau: KEEP... all developing players who we should be building around. They should all get better, no reason to trade any of them.

- Savard: TRADE or BURY in minors. I doubt anyone takes him but don't see a need for him here. Cut our losses as best we can.

- Allen: TRADE. Have detailed this elsewhere, but if we can get a return similar to Kuemper, he's worth more as a trade return than to our roster. If you're not in contention for the playoffs, you don't really need to spend 4M on a back-up to try and squeeze 6 more points out of the standings.

- Price: TRADE if the return is good enough and we don't need to retain more than 2.5M. Otherwise KEEP. Still has value to us as a player and wouldn't be trading him if it weren't for the contract.

- Hoffman: TRADE. Not sure what the return would be here but I think he has minimal value to us in the window we're in now.

- Kulak: KEEP or TRADE. Again, I'd trade him if there were a decent return, but he probably won't garner more than a 3rd or 4th rounder. If he'll re-sign on a cheap deal, I'm not against keeping him.

- Drouin: TRADE. I don't think he wants to be here long-term and I think he has value in a trade with only one more year on his contract after this one.

 

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7 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't believe there's such a thing as an untouchable. Everyone has a price. That said, I like to think of it more as which players have peak trade value right now. If I think their value is going to drop, I would deal them now, whereas I would hold onto guys whose value might go up or who provide more value to our line-up than the trade return would. So with that in mind, this is where I stand on some of the key players:

- Chiarot: TRADE. The most obvious decision. Playing as well now as he has since he got here, should garner us a 1st and maybe more. At 30+, he's not helping this team in its new window to win. The trade return here should be worth much more to us.

- Lehkonen: TRADE. I get that he's an RFA and we retain his rights. But the fact there's no commitment to salary and the fact he's a useful playoff piece means he has value to other teams right now. He's less valuable the minute we sign him to a 4-year deal for 3-4M a season (just look at Armia). Ultimately, Lehkonen could be a great piece to make a Cup run, and he was a huge component of our line-up last year in the post-season. But the counterpoint to that is that he doesn't score goals regularly and he'll never be more than a 3rd line or 4th line player. So am I ready next off-season to commit term and money to him (if we don't on his next deal, he'll become a UFA after)? Not really. I think now's the perfect time to trade him and get max return.

- Petry: KEEP. I don't know how to explain his season thus far, but I have to think with his level of offensive production, salary, term, and age, he's not likely to bring us a significant return. We have very little on the right side moving forward (a reason I was pushing to acquire Matt Dumba two years ago in anticipation of Weber's play dropping off) so if you're not using Petry, you're using Savard and who else? Ultimately, I think Petry for the next year or two is still better than the return we would get for him. Maybe we re-consider this if his level of play picks up and he re-establishes value but I don't think selling low is the right strategy here.

- Gallagher: TRADE. Like Petry, he's getting older and signed to a longer-term deal. But I think he still has value now and that we'd still get a good return here. I'd prefer to trade him before he falls off a cliff and we have a multitude of wingers to be able to replace him.

- Toffoli: likely KEEP. Similar story to Gallagher. I think we can keep one of the two, so it depends on who has better trade value, but I worry more about Gallagher's contract and about Gally wearing down, so preference to keep Toffoli.

- Anderson: KEEP. Provides something we don't have otherwise and seems to be a leader in the room. Could be a vet who shows the rookies how to play the right way.

- Suzuki: KEEP. As close to an untouchable as we have.

- Caufield, Romanov, Ylonen, Poehling, Norlinder, Primeau: KEEP... all developing players who we should be building around. They should all get better, no reason to trade any of them.

- Savard: TRADE or BURY in minors. I doubt anyone takes him but don't see a need for him here. Cut our losses as best we can.

- Allen: TRADE. Have detailed this elsewhere, but if we can get a return similar to Kuemper, he's worth more as a trade return than to our roster. If you're not in contention for the playoffs, you don't really need to spend 4M on a back-up to try and squeeze 6 more points out of the standings.

- Price: TRADE if the return is good enough and we don't need to retain more than 2.5M. Otherwise KEEP. Still has value to us as a player and wouldn't be trading him if it weren't for the contract.

- Hoffman: TRADE. Not sure what the return would be here but I think he has minimal value to us in the window we're in now.

- Kulak: KEEP or TRADE. Again, I'd trade him if there were a decent return, but he probably won't garner more than a 3rd or 4th rounder. If he'll re-sign on a cheap deal, I'm not against keeping him.

- Drouin: TRADE. I don't think he wants to be here long-term and I think he has value in a trade with only one more year on his contract after this one.

 

agree on everything except I think Toffoli may have more trade value than Gallagher and the reverse is true in terms of value to the team. I'd move on from both but I'd say the preference is to keep Gallagher. 

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29 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't believe there's such a thing as an untouchable. Everyone has a price. That said, I like to think of it more as which players have peak trade value right now. If I think their value is going to drop, I would deal them now, whereas I would hold onto guys whose value might go up or who provide more value to our line-up than the trade return would. So with that in mind, this is where I stand on some of the key players:

- Chiarot: TRADE. The most obvious decision. Playing as well now as he has since he got here, should garner us a 1st and maybe more. At 30+, he's not helping this team in its new window to win. The trade return here should be worth much more to us.

- Lehkonen: TRADE. I get that he's an RFA and we retain his rights. But the fact there's no commitment to salary and the fact he's a useful playoff piece means he has value to other teams right now. He's less valuable the minute we sign him to a 4-year deal for 3-4M a season (just look at Armia). Ultimately, Lehkonen could be a great piece to make a Cup run, and he was a huge component of our line-up last year in the post-season. But the counterpoint to that is that he doesn't score goals regularly and he'll never be more than a 3rd line or 4th line player. So am I ready next off-season to commit term and money to him (if we don't on his next deal, he'll become a UFA after)? Not really. I think now's the perfect time to trade him and get max return.

- Petry: KEEP. I don't know how to explain his season thus far, but I have to think with his level of offensive production, salary, term, and age, he's not likely to bring us a significant return. We have very little on the right side moving forward (a reason I was pushing to acquire Matt Dumba two years ago in anticipation of Weber's play dropping off) so if you're not using Petry, you're using Savard and who else? Ultimately, I think Petry for the next year or two is still better than the return we would get for him. Maybe we re-consider this if his level of play picks up and he re-establishes value but I don't think selling low is the right strategy here.

- Gallagher: TRADE. Like Petry, he's getting older and signed to a longer-term deal. But I think he still has value now and that we'd still get a good return here. I'd prefer to trade him before he falls off a cliff and we have a multitude of wingers to be able to replace him.

- Toffoli: likely KEEP. Similar story to Gallagher. I think we can keep one of the two, so it depends on who has better trade value, but I worry more about Gallagher's contract and about Gally wearing down, so preference to keep Toffoli.

- Anderson: KEEP. Provides something we don't have otherwise and seems to be a leader in the room. Could be a vet who shows the rookies how to play the right way.

- Suzuki: KEEP. As close to an untouchable as we have.

- Caufield, Romanov, Ylonen, Poehling, Norlinder, Primeau: KEEP... all developing players who we should be building around. They should all get better, no reason to trade any of them.

- Savard: TRADE or BURY in minors. I doubt anyone takes him but don't see a need for him here. Cut our losses as best we can.

- Allen: TRADE. Have detailed this elsewhere, but if we can get a return similar to Kuemper, he's worth more as a trade return than to our roster. If you're not in contention for the playoffs, you don't really need to spend 4M on a back-up to try and squeeze 6 more points out of the standings.

- Price: TRADE if the return is good enough and we don't need to retain more than 2.5M. Otherwise KEEP. Still has value to us as a player and wouldn't be trading him if it weren't for the contract.

- Hoffman: TRADE. Not sure what the return would be here but I think he has minimal value to us in the window we're in now.

- Kulak: KEEP or TRADE. Again, I'd trade him if there were a decent return, but he probably won't garner more than a 3rd or 4th rounder. If he'll re-sign on a cheap deal, I'm not against keeping him.

- Drouin: TRADE. I don't think he wants to be here long-term and I think he has value in a trade with only one more year on his contract after this one.

 

You missed Dvorak - IMO we would have to talk to him as from the outside he looks like a player that just simply does not want to be here. Not sure if it is just his play style or something else but he looks like he just lacks energy like he is just going through the motions. He didn't have much of a choice coming to Montreal since he had no trade protection. He doesn't really celebrate after scoring and doesn't really engage with others on the bench. Again this could all just be a personality thing in which case we keep him but if he doesn't want to be here we should trade him that's why a conversation needs to be had with him.

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1 minute ago, campabee82 said:

You missed Dvorak - IMO we would have to talk to him as from the outside he looks like a player that just simply does not want to be here. Not sure if it is just his play style or something else but he looks like he just lacks energy like he is just going through the motions. He didn't have much of a choice coming to Montreal since he had no trade protection. He doesn't really celebrate after scoring and doesn't really engage with others on the bench. Again this could all just be a personality thing in which case we keep him but if he doesn't want to be here we should trade him that's why a conversation needs to be had with him.

almost everyone on this team looks bad. IF there's a personal reason to move him, I guess you move him. But his age, at his salary and position. I don't see any reason to move him

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Just now, claremont said:

Just a quick revisit on the GM candidate- The talking heads Engels, Stu Cowan and others all mention Briere, Darche, Martin Lapointe, Luongo and fail to mention Martin Madden Jr - do they have inside knowledge that he’s signing with Anaheim or are they totally uninformed? 

unfortunately, I think the consensus is they want a guy who will be molded by Gorton, Madden isn't that guy. I would prefer a partnership and madden seems the only guy able to provide that

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2 hours ago, campabee82 said:

You missed Dvorak - IMO we would have to talk to him as from the outside he looks like a player that just simply does not want to be here. Not sure if it is just his play style or something else but he looks like he just lacks energy like he is just going through the motions. He didn't have much of a choice coming to Montreal since he had no trade protection. He doesn't really celebrate after scoring and doesn't really engage with others on the bench. Again this could all just be a personality thing in which case we keep him but if he doesn't want to be here we should trade him that's why a conversation needs to be had with him.

I'm not a Dvorak fan either so far, but on the basis of what I said, I'd keep him for now. I don't like where his trade value is at at this point.

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