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2021-22 State of the Habs


H_T_L
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Come to think of it (and I know injuries play a role), it looks like we're already rebuilding anyway. In addition to more established guys like Suzuki and Evans, we had Caufield, Poehling, Pezzetta, Romanov, Norlinder, and Primeau on the ice last night, who are all prospects at this point. The team has massive holes at key positions, so I'm all for trading Chiarot, Kulak, and one of our wingers for additional picks/prospects or even some immediate help. Like others have said, the time to trade Chiarot is now and NOT at the deadline, where naturally a lower number of teams will be interested in his services and the potential draft picks we could acquire will be in the upper echelon. We aren't going anywhere this season, his trade value has probably never been higher, and it's highly unlikely that we'll re-sign him.

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“Tonight, we were just bad,” Ducharme said. “Everyone needs to go through it but tonight we were just bad. I can stand here and try to analyze every play but we were bad." :ph34r: :lol:

Ducharme sure does know what's going on. :rolleyes: I tuned in for one period last night and it was more than enough to validate my lack of attention to this team right now.

Francois Legault should focus on things more important than trying to plan to get more Quebecers into the NHL.

Caulfield should remain in Laval for the time-being.

Not sure why we think Cayden Primeau is the future of our goaltending.

Really wish they would just announce an interim GM and have Bergevin step away.

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Exactly how I feel...

Throwing in the Towel
November 18, 2021, 9:31 PM ET
Karine Hains

... Never in my life have I seen a team so disinterested by what is happening on the ice. When is Geoff Molson going to step in and call time on this gong show?


... It's high time to go back to the drawing board, clean house, exit Bergevin and his multiple 5-year plans, exit Ducharme and his system the players seem unable to execute and most of all, time to evaluate and decide who to sell this trade deadline or even earlier this team has got nothing left to lose.

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Karine-Hains/Game-19-Throwing-in-the-Towel/266/114647

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Not sure why we think Cayden Primeau is the future of our goaltending.

Because we sometimes think every prospect is going to make it to the show and together they will form the nucleus of a contender , when in reality we are lucky if one guy makes it 

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11 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

That's alright for you youngsters, but us oldies don't have time for another rebuild, but I get what you're saying. 

First off, you aint that old buddy. ;)

But in reality, this team is in very good shape for a rebuild  This isnt a team where all the key players are over 30.  A lot of our important core is between 20-26/27.  So if you made the right moves, we could be challenging in 2 years.    Guys like Price, Petry, Gallagher, Chiarot, Edmundson etc do have value.  Add in a guy like Wright and turn some of those vets into blue chip prospects and picks and just watch.

The problem is we have a GM who may or may not be with us next year and I dont think he has the skills to make this type of rebuild work anyway. 

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51 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Because we sometimes think every prospect is going to make it to the show and together they will form the nucleus of a contender , when in reality we are lucky if one guy makes it 

So true.

Primeau seems so far away from being a regular NHLer. I know I've been spoiled by Carey for several years, but... I just don't see Primeauu, or Montembault, or McNiven, or Allen as being the short-term or long-term solution in net for this team. And I can't imagine Price wanting to be asked by our next GM, "Hey, do you mind hanging around here for another 3-4 seasons while we rebuild?"

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1 hour ago, Regis22 said:

Because we sometimes think every prospect is going to make it to the show and together they will form the nucleus of a contender , when in reality we are lucky if one guy makes it 

Remember when we were "set" at Right Defense?
Weber, Petry still had several good years left in them.  Brook was a future 1st pairing D.  Juulsen and Fleury easily top 4...

Now we have Petry playing like a shell of himself and Brook possibly never being an NHLer.  Meanwhile Weber is done for good, Juulsen and Fleury claimed...

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48 minutes ago, maas_art said:

First off, you aint that old buddy. ;) DISAGREE

But in reality, this team is in very good shape for a rebuild  This isnt a team where all the key players are over 30.  A lot of our important core is between 20-26/27.  So if you made the right moves, we could be challenging in 2 years.    Guys like Price, Petry, Gallagher, Chiarot, Edmundson etc do have value.  Add in a guy like Wright and turn some of those vets into blue chip prospects and picks and just watch.

The problem is we have a GM who may or may not be with us next year and I dont think he has the skills to make this type of rebuild work anyway. 

I agree with most of your points :4322:

We have a reasonable prospect pool - Guhle, Norlinder, Harris, Struble, Joshua Roy, Harvey Pinard - Primeau needs more seasoning as he has a lot of inconsistency. Riley Kidney - jury is out on him (size), similarly Mysak, Simoneau (too small and over ager), Farrell - lights out at present but who knows, Mailloux - who knows. The rest including Luke Tuch as injured and no progress are unlikely to make any impact. 

We really need much more youth and depth at Centre, purge some stuff at our existing D while we can, and tell the Premier of Quebec to get his nose out of hockey - I'm sure that's why Bergevin signed Paquette, Savard, Perrault 

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random comments from disgruntled fans

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/about-last-night-habs-season-hits-new-low-in-6-0-loss-to-pens

“Well, I don’t know how much more the Montreal faithful can stomach. But logic tells me it’s time for a full blown rebuild. Dismiss Bergevin, the entire coaching staff and Timmins. Bring in a new GM, not an intern. Then start getting rid of all the dead wood Bergevin accumulated over the past 9 years. There’s not a lot of keepers here, but you do have to keep a few younger and veteran players. In reality, this should have happened 5 years ago, but Bergevin was always just lucky enough with his mediocre trades. To always make like next year will be the year. I’ll give Bergevin this, he’s a genius at pulling the wool over Molson’s and lot of Montreal fans eyes. This is sickening to watch, a team with the richest history, sink so low. Bravo Molson, bravo.” -Mark Real Smith

“A comment made on one of the Toronto sports radio shows today was how soft the Habs are this year and other teams are exposing that weakness. Couldn’t argue with them.” -Bob Taylor

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https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2021/11/19/22789949/montreal-canadiens-2021-22-record-fire-marc-bergevin-dominique-ducharme-cole-caufield-norlinder

I can’t see how Geoff Molson is tolerating this. The product on the ice has gotten so bad that the team is being mocked by its own fans. If he won’t take action, then he will soon be looking at a situation where the fan base will turn against him as an owner.

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Molson will tolerate it 'til his investment is no longer growing in value. That's the sad truth. He invested in the team, he wants that investment to grow in value, winning would be nice, but it's definitely not the primary goal. If the team keeps increasing in value while putting a terrible product on the ice and losing games, I'm sure he'll tolerate it.

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2 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Molson will tolerate it 'til his investment is no longer growing in value. That's the sad truth. He invested in the team, he wants that investment to grow in value, winning would be nice, but it's definitely not the primary goal. If the team keeps increasing in value while putting a terrible product on the ice and losing games, I'm sure he'll tolerate it.

yeah but all one has to do is watch the game and see all the empty seats. I'm a half-season ticket holder. The games that I sell, I'm selling at below the price of the ticket. They are not selling out anymore. I don't see how they can grow or generate more revenue. I don't think it will go that far but they are at the point where they may need to consider lowering the ticket price. Trust me Molson is worried more than any of us, the problem is he might be so worried that he fears what may happen if there is a complete rebuild

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17 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Molson will tolerate it 'til his investment is no longer growing in value. That's the sad truth. He invested in the team, he wants that investment to grow in value, winning would be nice, but it's definitely not the primary goal. If the team keeps increasing in value while putting a terrible product on the ice and losing games, I'm sure he'll tolerate it.

Truth.

Having spoken with him personally, I DO think he loves the team & he wants them to succeed. He is steeped in the "culture" of the team and he genuinely wants to be part of that going forward....but I have zero doubt in my mind that Houle wanted that too but pretty much singlehandedly set back the franchise by 20 years.

Molson may love the team and genuinely want us to win, but until his pocket book is hurt I dont think he's going to make evasive maneuvers.   I am certain that MB has told him tales of woe - injuries, bad luck and more injuries and i am sure he's like "we could have the best coach and/or GM in hockey and we'd still be at 4 wins so no point in firing anyone"

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, habsisme said:

yeah but all one has to do is watch the game and see all the empty seats. I'm a half-season ticket holder. The games that I sell, I'm selling at below the price of the ticket. They are not selling out anymore. I don't see how they can grow or generate more revenue. I don't think it will go that far but they are at the point where they may need to consider lowering the ticket price. Trust me Molson is worried more than any of us, the problem is he might be so worried that he fears what may happen if there is a complete rebuild

It's not just about ticket revenue. Have a look at how much the team is valued at right now vs. when Molson bought the team. It's gone from somewhere around $500M to $1.34B. That's a great return on investment for him. I can guarantee you he's pretty darn happy with how that has unfolded.

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8 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

It's not just about ticket revenue. Have a look at how much the team is valued at right now vs. when Molson bought the team. It's gone from somewhere around $500M to $1.34B. That's a great return on investment for him. I can guarantee you he's pretty darn happy with how that has unfolded.

up to now yes,  but I gaurantee you its no longer worth 1.34B, he's losing money now

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4 minutes ago, habsisme said:

up to now yes,  but I gaurantee you its no longer worth 1.34B, he's losing money now

He may have some operating losses but the capital value of the franchise is still increasing based on potential so the operating ticket/fan loss is small potatoes, and he's still getting TV Media Revenue.  He's not losing money on the $1.34B franchise value and it's buying power - Videotron, Bell, Rogers, would gladly pay that for the media content. 

A similar comparison - take a parking lot in prime condo development in any big city core. Operating the parking lot of tickets less staff to collect the tickets, asphalt repairs and property taxes and one would say you're likely not making much operating profit, however the price of the franchise land continues to go up in value - why close the parking lot and just sit on it for awhile while the sale price just goes up

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58 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Molson will tolerate it 'til his investment is no longer growing in value. That's the sad truth. He invested in the team, he wants that investment to grow in value, winning would be nice, but it's definitely not the primary goal. If the team keeps increasing in value while putting a terrible product on the ice and losing games, I'm sure he'll tolerate it.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying about Molson's bottom line interest in the team, but I still don't see how that protects Bergevin.  He's already on the last year of his contract, so Molson isn't really saving much in the way of money by keeping him.  Does firing the GM, especially when we have a record like this, reduce the team's value in any way?  

To me it would seem that, even from a business perspective, you're bound to get more people interested in the team (and thus make more money) if people have at least a little something to be optimistic about.

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7 minutes ago, claremont said:

He may have some operating losses but the capital value of the franchise is still increasing based on potential so the operating ticket/fan loss is small potatoes, and he's still getting TV Media Revenue.  He's not losing money on the $1.34B franchise value and it's buying power - Videotron, Bell, Rogers, would gladly pay that for the media content. 

A similar comparison - take a parking lot in prime condo development in any big city core. Operating the parking lot of tickets less staff to collect the tickets, asphalt repairs and property taxes and one would say you're likely not making much operating profit, however the price of the franchise land continues to go up in value - why close the parking lot and just sit on it for awhile while the sale price just goes up

the arena is empty, there is no way anyone is seeing any potential. If I were Molson I would sell if money was my only interest because this franchise ain't increasing in value anything beyond inflation, if even that, anytime soon. 

And I'm not even sure bell or roger could own another team (they already own the Leafs). Videotron would be the obvious buyer but if they happen not to be interested, he may not get as high as he should have. 

The idea the even if Molson just cared about money (which I don't think he does), he wouldn't care about the success of the team. A successful team bring in money. One of the very reasons we've never rebuilt is not the naive "they don't care about winning" its the "This city won't support a losing product, win now at all costs" 

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13 minutes ago, claremont said:

He may have some operating losses but the capital value of the franchise is still increasing based on potential so the operating ticket/fan loss is small potatoes, and he's still getting TV Media Revenue.  He's not losing money on the $1.34B franchise value and it's buying power - Videotron, Bell, Rogers, would gladly pay that for the media content. 

A similar comparison - take a parking lot in prime condo development in any big city core. Operating the parking lot of tickets less staff to collect the tickets, asphalt repairs and property taxes and one would say you're likely not making much operating profit, however the price of the franchise land continues to go up in value - why close the parking lot and just sit on it for awhile while the sale price just goes up

I really like the analogy, but the question isn't whether or not he sells the parking lot, it's whether or not he spends a relatively small amount of money to repair the obvious potholes at the entrance.  If you're going to keep the lot in operation, you might as well make it at least tolerable to the people who use it.

I don't think anything really changes from a team valuation point of view if Bergevin gets fired, does it?

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2 hours ago, H_T_L said:

I'm almost at the point now that i wouldn't go to a game if they gave me the tickets, accommodations and travel costs to the game. This is not enjoyable entertainment in my books. I barely got through a period of this garbage last night.

i have not watched a full game yet this year.  Usually i cant even get through a period.   Even during the lean Jan Bulis/Richard Zednik first line years I could not say that. 

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