2021-22 State of the Habs

[campabee82]

55 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I think you need to trade Chiarot before the deadline. Hanging onto him isn't going to help us in our next competitive window. He's over-valued right now and it's the right time to trade him for future assets. A lot of reporting seems to indicate we can get two future assets (picks and/or prospects) from a Chiarot trade, so that's what I expect. Hoping for a first rounder and a prospect.

I'm pretty sure when Hughes came on board, it was reported that he spoke with all the players. I'm sure he's done his work to see what Ben was interested in. And I'm sure Hughes was also straight up about the possibility of trading him.

 

29 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Yeah i value chiarot more than some here but that's all I'm saying. I still think we should move him. But if the same player was 5 years younger I'd re-sign him cause he's a good player

Like I said, I would trade him IF the expectation is that Edmundson will return and not become our version of Gardner. Right now though IMO it is looking very very bleak on the Edmundson side of things. 

[maas_art]

1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I think you need to trade Chiarot before the deadline. Hanging onto him isn't going to help us in our next competitive window. He's over-valued right now and it's the right time to trade him for future assets. A lot of reporting seems to indicate we can get two future assets (picks and/or prospects) from a Chiarot trade, so that's what I expect. Hoping for a first rounder and a prospect.

I'm pretty sure when Hughes came on board, it was reported that he spoke with all the players. I'm sure he's done his work to see what Ben was interested in. And I'm sure Hughes was also straight up about the possibility of trading him.

This. 

Reminds me a ton of the Craig Rivet trade.  He was overvalued at that point in time & while many of us liked him & sort of 'wished' we could keep him it was clearly the right move to trade him.  And what did we get? Josh Gorges and a 1st round pick (that turned into Max Pacioretty).   If we can get that kind of return... you just cant keep Chiarot. 

[CaptWelly]

21 minutes ago, maas_art said:

This. 

Reminds me a ton of the Craig Rivet trade.  He was overvalued at that point in time & while many of us liked him & sort of 'wished' we could keep him it was clearly the right move to trade him.  And what did we get? Josh Gorges and a 1st round pick (that turned into Max Pacioretty).   If we can get that kind of return... you just cant keep Chiarot. 

A very big "if" we could trade him and the pick or prospect could turn out to never play in the NHL. At this point Chariot is a known quantity. "If" we get a very solid return I'd be okay. That said moving forward if we end up with a worse defensive group with maybe Edmonton not playing, Price not being 100% percent or not playing. We could end up like we were early in the season no matter who the coach is. Constantly losing, even "if" you get that magic draft pick isn't a good atmosphere for the young players. We could end up like Buffalo or Phoenix always hoping for the magically draft pick to save the team! We still need a defense that isn't all youth and future but no experience. Kulak isn't going to lead the next generation and be a top defending defenseman if called on full time. 

[BigTed3]

Seattle just re-signed impending RFA Jared McCann (age 25) to a 5-year extension with an AAV of 5M.

Now Lehkonen is a left winger instead of a center and his career production is somewhat less than McCann's, but Lehkonen is a superior defensive player and has more playoff experience. I think Lehkonen will get less money on his next deal than McCann, but if McCann is getting 5x5, I don't think we're re-signing Lehkonen for anything less than 4 x 3.5M and at this point, it's probably closer to 5 x 4+M to get it done. So again, I'll ask what the best option of these is if this is what Lehkonen's agent offers you:

1. Trade Lehkonen now for a 1st rounder and a prospect

2. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and trade him next year at the deadline (taking chance that value could be a bit less as a UFA)

3. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and then let him walk after the season.

4. Re-sign him now to a 5-year deal at 4.15M AAV.

[claremont]

29 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Seattle just re-signed impending RFA Jared McCann (age 25) to a 5-year extension with an AAV of 5M.

Now Lehkonen is a left winger instead of a center and his career production is somewhat less than McCann's, but Lehkonen is a superior defensive player and has more playoff experience. I think Lehkonen will get less money on his next deal than McCann, but if McCann is getting 5x5, I don't think we're re-signing Lehkonen for anything less than 4 x 3.5M and at this point, it's probably closer to 5 x 4+M to get it done. So again, I'll ask what the best option of these is if this is what Lehkonen's agent offers you:

1. Trade Lehkonen now for a 1st rounder and a prospect

2. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and trade him next year at the deadline (taking chance that value could be a bit less as a UFA)

3. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and then let him walk after the season.

4. Re-sign him now to a 5-year deal at 4.15M AAV.

Option 5 - wait for Carolina to offer sheet Lehks at just south of $4.1 AAV and take the late 2nd round pick 

[CaptWelly]

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Seattle just re-signed impending RFA Jared McCann (age 25) to a 5-year extension with an AAV of 5M.

Now Lehkonen is a left winger instead of a center and his career production is somewhat less than McCann's, but Lehkonen is a superior defensive player and has more playoff experience. I think Lehkonen will get less money on his next deal than McCann, but if McCann is getting 5x5, I don't think we're re-signing Lehkonen for anything less than 4 x 3.5M and at this point, it's probably closer to 5 x 4+M to get it done. So again, I'll ask what the best option of these is if this is what Lehkonen's agent offers you:

1. Trade Lehkonen now for a 1st rounder and a prospect

2. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and trade him next year at the deadline (taking chance that value could be a bit less as a UFA)

3. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and then let him walk after the season.

4. Re-sign him now to a 5-year deal at 4.15M AAV.

If you can sign him to 5 at 4.15 sign him!

[electron58]

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Seattle just re-signed impending RFA Jared McCann (age 25) to a 5-year extension with an AAV of 5M.

Now Lehkonen is a left winger instead of a center and his career production is somewhat less than McCann's, but Lehkonen is a superior defensive player and has more playoff experience. I think Lehkonen will get less money on his next deal than McCann, but if McCann is getting 5x5, I don't think we're re-signing Lehkonen for anything less than 4 x 3.5M and at this point, it's probably closer to 5 x 4+M to get it done. So again, I'll ask what the best option of these is if this is what Lehkonen's agent offers you:

1. Trade Lehkonen now for a 1st rounder and a prospect

2. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and trade him next year at the deadline (taking chance that value could be a bit less as a UFA)

3. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and then let him walk after the season.

4. Re-sign him now to a 5-year deal at 4.15M AAV.

1. Trade Lehkonen now for a 1st rounder and a prospect. Look. I've always been a big supporter of Artturi Lehkonen, even though many others were not. But, realistically?  We need to move Lehkonen if the return is , as the #1 offer suggests. In a perfect world, he would be invaluable to us, but seeing as we will NOT be cup contenders any time soon, we have to maximize our return NOW. Who knows, maybe in the future, when we are contenders, we trade back for him. Stranger things have happened. Make the trade!

[habsisme]

7 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Seattle just re-signed impending RFA Jared McCann (age 25) to a 5-year extension with an AAV of 5M.

Now Lehkonen is a left winger instead of a center and his career production is somewhat less than McCann's, but Lehkonen is a superior defensive player and has more playoff experience. I think Lehkonen will get less money on his next deal than McCann, but if McCann is getting 5x5, I don't think we're re-signing Lehkonen for anything less than 4 x 3.5M and at this point, it's probably closer to 5 x 4+M to get it done. So again, I'll ask what the best option of these is if this is what Lehkonen's agent offers you:

1. Trade Lehkonen now for a 1st rounder and a prospect

2. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and trade him next year at the deadline (taking chance that value could be a bit less as a UFA)

3. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and then let him walk after the season.

4. Re-sign him now to a 5-year deal at 4.15M AAV.

If thats the return, you trade him, if not do #2

[jennifer_rocket]

17 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

1. Trade Lehkonen now for a 1st rounder and a prospect

2. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and trade him next year at the deadline (taking chance that value could be a bit less as a UFA)

3. Re-sign Lehkonen to a 1-year deal at 3.2M AAV and then let him walk after the season.

4. Re-sign him now to a 5-year deal at 4.15M AAV.

I trade him if I can get a 1st rounder and prospect. I really like Lehkonen, but you gotta do what's best for the team. And getting futures for a good player who likely won't be a major component of our rebuild is the right way to go. I choose #2 if the return indicated in #1 is not there.

[electron58]

On 3/3/2022 at 1:09 AM, electron58 said:

Top European, College and Junior free agents
Corey Pronman of The Athletic: Ranking that top European, College and Junior free agents.

Projected NHL Players

  1. Andrei Kuzmenko – LW – SKA KHL
  2. Ben Meyers – C –Minnesota Big Ten

A chance to play in the NHL

  3. Jake Livingstone – RHD – Minnesota State NCHA
  4. Bobby Trivigno – LW –UMass HE
  5 Sergei Tolchinsky-LW-Avangard  KHL
  6. Niko Ojamaki – RW – Podolsk  KHL
  7. Jordan Fransca – C – Kingston OHL signed = Pittsburg Penguins
  8. Max Veronneau-RW – Leksands SHL
  9. Bennett MacArthur – LW – Acadie-Bathurst QMJHL  signed = Tampa Bay Lightening
10. Brandon Bussi-G-W. Mich. NCHC
11. Riese Gaber-RW-N. Dakota NCHC
12. Daniil Vovchenko-LW-Severstal KHL
13. Taylor Gauthier-G-Portland WHL        signed = Pittsburg Penguins
14. Strauss Mann – G – Skelleftea SHL
15. Ethen Frank-RW-W. Michigan NCHC
16. Marc McLaughlin – C – Western Michigan HE
17. Parker Ford-C-Providence HE

Players who could also be signed this offseason

Trenton Bliss-C-Michigan Tech WCHA
Corey Andonovski-RW-Princeton ECAC
Jacob Bengtsson – LHD – Lake Superior State WCHA
Tye Kartye – C – Sault Ste. Marie OHL   signed = Seattle Kraken
Henrik Rybinski – C – Seattle WHL         signed = Washington Capitals
Nathan Staios – LHD – Hamilton OHL

TOP 10 COLLEGE UFAS

Ben Meyers – C – Minnesota – Will have many teams interested in signing him.
Bobby Trivigno – LW – UMass – Was at the Penguins development camp in 2019 and would have gone to the Rangers one in 2021 but school had resumed.
Jake Livingstone – D – Minnesota State – Is a sophomore but is 22-yo.
Brandon Scanlin – D – Omaha – Some concerns about his skating.
Marc McLaughlin – C – Boston College – A two-way forward for a bottom-six.
Corey Andonovski – RW – Princeton.
Ethen Frank – RW – W. Michigan.
Parker Ford – C – Providence.
Taylor Ward – RW – Omaha
Noah Philip – C – University of Alberta

Any diamonds?  💎  💎  💎 

[H_T_L]

Schueneman sent to Laval. Guessing Edmundson must be super close

[BigTed3]

9 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Schueneman sent to Laval. Guessing Edmundson must be super close

They needed the roster spot for Byron's return, and Schueneman was one of the few players who could be sent down without needing waivers. Petry will play tonight, so they have 6 healthy D. Sounds like nothing more than that.

[ramcharger440]

15 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

They needed the roster spot for Byron's return, and Schueneman was one of the few players who could be sent down without needing waivers. Petry will play tonight, so they have 6 healthy D. Sounds like nothing more than that.

Yeah Byron and Evans in I am pretty sure Eddy is close but no need to rush him.

[kinot-2]

So, we got 6 PTs. out of 10 on the road trip.  I call that a win. 

[electron58]

3 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

So, we got 6 PTs. out of 10 on the road trip.  I call that a win. 

Especially for us.  It's usually "death valley" out west.  And the 2 losses were both somewhat exciting games, as well.

[maas_art]

8 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

So, we got 6 PTs. out of 10 on the road trip.  I call that a win. 

Not for le tank!

[KRH]

We all express our opinions.  But, it must be realized that opinions are like a fart in a northeast gale.

My opinion, for what it is worth .....

Chiarot and Lehkonen are two players on the current roster that I consider as gamers, players that I would go to war with.  I am not seeing too many other players on this roster that I would go to war with.  Gallagher in times past, but his best before date has passed.  Anderson has shown me some good things.  Evans is a bit of a gamer.  Two or three of the younger players (Romanov, Suzuki) have some punch to their game.  What else do we have left on the current roster?  Many players that are lacking talent, timid, soft, floaters, and not considered real leaders.

The general consensus, I understand, is to trade Chiarot and Lehkonen from this roster.  My take is, if we don't replace them with equals, it will be painful to watch this team play for the next 2 - 3 years.  Who are the leaders going to be?  What character do we have left on the roster?  I can envision that half way through next season, we will be pouting and asking why we don't have real leaders, gamers on this team.

I would not consider, at this time, trading Chiarot or Lehkonen from this roster.  The team needs them for the next two, three, or four years.  Without these type players, we are going nowhere fast.     

[campabee82]

26 minutes ago, KRH said:

We all express our opinions.  But, it must be realized that opinions are like a fart in a northeast gale.

My opinion, for what it is worth .....

Chiarot and Lehkonen are two players on the current roster that I consider as gamers, players that I would go to war with.  I am not seeing too many other players on this roster that I would go to war with.  Gallagher in times past, but his best before date has passed.  Anderson has shown me some good things.  Evans is a bit of a gamer.  Two or three of the younger players (Romanov, Suzuki) have some punch to their game.  What else do we have left on the current roster?  Many players that are lacking talent, timid, soft, floaters, and not considered real leaders.

The general consensus, I understand, is to trade Chiarot and Lehkonen from this roster.  My take is, if we don't replace them with equals, it will be painful to watch this team play for the next 2 - 3 years.  Who are the leaders going to be?  What character do we have left on the roster?  I can envision that half way through next season, we will be pouting and asking why we don't have real leaders, gamers on this team.

I would not consider, at this time, trading Chiarot or Lehkonen from this roster.  The team needs them for the next two, three, or four years.  Without these type players, we are going nowhere fast.     

Well said, and I will add that by removing these types of players we will just be another Toronto or Edmonton. Lots of talent to get through the regular season but not enough depth or defense to make it past the first round. Good teams have balance bad teams like us or the Leafs are too top heavy or bottom heavy. We need a game breaker or two and they may or may not already be in the organization (Caufield, Farrell and Roy stand out as potential game breakers).

[claremont]

22 minutes ago, KRH said:

My opinion, for what it is worth .....

Chiarot and Lehkonen are two players on the current roster that I consider as gamers, players that I would go to war with.  I am not seeing too many other players on this roster that I would go to war with.  Gallagher in times past, but his best before date has passed.  Anderson has shown me some good things.  Evans is a bit of a gamer.  Two or three of the younger players (Romanov, Suzuki) have some punch to their game.  What else do we have left on the current roster?  Many players that are lacking talent, timid, soft, floaters, and not considered real leaders.

The general consensus, I understand, is to trade Chiarot and Lehkonen from this roster.  My take is, if we don't replace them with equals, it will be painful to watch this team play for the next 2 - 3 years.  Who are the leaders going to be?  What character do we have left on the roster?  I can envision that half way through next season, we will be pouting and asking why we don't have real leaders, gamers on this team.

I would not consider, at this time, trading Chiarot or Lehkonen from this roster.  The team needs them for the next two, three, or four years.  Without these type players, we are going nowhere fast.     

I respect your perspective and would counter with

1) This team with it's current roster is going nowhere fast is a hard truth reality - we were barely a bubble playoff team last year in the weak Cdn. division. I believe that most will agree that we rode a streak of a hot Price and Weber to the finals. Price's return to form is a looming question mark and Weber is virtually done - next year he will be 37 without playing for a year. If he plays again, it will be a surprise and in today's fast game before the playoff wars, he will be a slow footed 5/6 d-man whose "best before date has passed"

2) Time to move onto a fresh core - "What else do we have left on the current roster"?  Romanov, Suzuki, Caufield, Anderson, Pitlick, Evans, and a number of maybe's (Edmundson, Poehling), but we have LOFT ("Lack of #$%^  Talent"). On the way up, a series of question marks - the can't miss Guhle and Joshua Roy, and 2 year wait for Emil Heineman, but no elite talent, and a dependency on draft and development. 

3) You are right that it will be painful to watch this team play for the next 2 years (maybe 3). I take some comfort in watching youth and heart develop as opposed to watching a team on a treadmill merry go round. Suzuki, Anderson, Caufield are on an ascending trajectory. We need to find other players whose arrow is pointing up. Chiarot and Lehkonen retention IMO will just spin us into the vicious cycle of a below average team fighting for a playoff spot and that falsehood of "anything can happen". I like Lehkonen, but his cost for a 3rd liner may be too much. if we get a good offer for him, time to move on and try for elite players

4) Good teams turnover their roster with youth - We have largely failed at that. Time to change the direction, and if that means losing for a couple of years, I am ok as long as I see progression vs. same old same old

[KRH]

Hold on to the gamers, get rid of the softies.  Not the other way around.

We had a gamer in Webber, but it seems that has run its course.

We had a gamer in Sergachev, but he was deemed expendable, and management shipped him out for a softie.  Wasn't he an integral part of Stanley Cups wins with another team?

We had a gamer in McDonagh, and management kicked him out of the organization with no return.  Seems to me he was also an important contributor to Stanley Cup wins with another team.

Stupid management decisions.  And they are paid big bucks to make these confounding decisions.

[habs1952]

Keep Lehkonen and dump Drouin.

[KRH]

habs1952 - Now that I can agree with ! 

[maas_art]

1 hour ago, KRH said:

Hold on to the gamers, get rid of the softies.  Not the other way around.

But age has to be a factor too.  You yourself mentioned Gallagher being "past his best before date" - he's 29 years old.  Who's to say Chiarot or Lehkonen etc wont be there in a year or two.

A great GM understands that you have to move on from a player right before they start their decline. Its often tough for fans because you see that player have success for a year or two - and its always a risk moving established guys for youth/prospects/picks, but i think we're at that point now where we have to consider it for the right return. 

[KRH]

Gallagher is 29, has taken a beating, and appears to have regressed.  Albeit, if we are not going full-out youth, I would not be entirely adverse to having him on the roster for another couple of years.  I would have attempted to trade him last year, but now that he is still here he may be more valuable for another couple of years than what we are getting in return.

A Chiarot trade, yes, if the return is great .... but how will we know if it is great.  No guarantees with a late 1st round pick, or a prospect.

Lehkonen, for me a hard no.  He is still young.  We are not likely going to get back what we are giving up.

"A great GM understands that you have to move on from a player right before they start their decline."  This tells me we have not had great GM's.  Otherwise, Price would be gone.  Gallagher would be gone.  Petry would be gone.  Byron would be gone.  Allen would be gone.  We would not have signed Savard.  We would not have signed Hoffman.

My position is, unless the return is substantial, I am keeping Chiarot for now, and Lehkonen for a few years yet.  If they go, what do you have left in the way of character, hard work, leadership.  It concerns me.

 

 

[maas_art]

9 minutes ago, KRH said:

"A great GM understands that you have to move on from a player right before they start their decline."  This tells me we have not had great GM's.  Otherwise, Price would be gone.  Gallagher would be gone.  Petry would be gone.  Byron would be gone.  Allen would be gone.  We would not have signed Savard.  We would not have signed Hoffman."

Absolutely. I dont think we've had a great GM in decades to be honest.   We've had some passable, some good but none were great.   In fact there are very few great GMs in the league.