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6 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

So you're punished for where you grow up? You're punished for where you are born? 

If you call being a rich athlete and having some of your annual salary taken away from you as being punished, then yes. :rolleyes: You're responding like I am proposing taking an average median income earning Russian in Canada and throwing them in jail or something. One doesn't beget the other and a "slippery slope" argument here is nonsense.

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9 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

There have already been thousands locked up for speaking out. We are very fortunate and cannot judge others by our freedom of standards. The trucker protest would of never happened in Russia. It's unfortunate.

And those Russians who are protesting Putin should be commended. The switch from autocracy to more representative politics is a painful one.

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24 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

The sanctions on Russian organizations and banks are there to cripple the Russian economy. They have already devalued the Ruble and weakened Russia's ability to purchase raw materials to make weapons. It makes it more difficult for them to pay their military. It may increase the chances that the Russian people get fed up and topple their own government. There may be pros and cons to this strategy, but at least there are clear and direct impacts of these measures on trying to shorten the war and reduce casualties. I'm not sure I can say the same thing about banning Russian hockey players from the NHL. How does Malkin or Romanov not playing in the NHL choke the Russian position in the war? Many of these players may be completely against the war but still have family (parents, siblings, children, wives) in Russia and fear repercussions if they were to adamantly speak out.

Imagine your entire family were wrongfully imprisoned somewhere and the warden of the jail decided to organize a group to corrupt law enforcement officers to start killing civilians in the name of the "law"... now what's more likely to be helpful to stalling this? Preventing the warden and his gang from accessing money and supplies? Or firing you and other family members of the prisoners from your jobs on account of your association, in hopes that you'll protest? That's got to be what it feels like right now to be Russian.

I'm sorry Big Ted3 we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Working visas for wealthy high profile Russians may be a minor sanction but it does demonstrate our resolve over what is ocurring in Ukraine. There are differences among Russian citizens.

Ovechkin has endorsed Putin in past elections and claimed him as a friend even inviting him to his wedding. Ovechkin benefits from moving in elite Russian circles who are "anti west" while feeding and sheltering his family by working in the "corrupt west". He has benefited from both sides and if he has to make a choice now I'm sure he will be able to support his family by playing in the KHL.

Panarin did not support Putin and suffered from a smear campaign launched by Putin's government. I see no reason to deny him a working visa and he may even qualify for refugee status.

Canadian citizens are losing and will lose jobs as a result of our government's sanctions against Russia. If a few high profile Russians do not continue to gain from their privileges in the west because of their government's actions in the Ukraine I won't lose any sleep. 

I don't advance these points as an argument as you are entitled to your view on not taking action against higher proflle Russian hockey players working in the west.

 

 

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The big question now is would the NHL even consider a ban on Russian players? More and more sports organizations have taken that step already. Personally i would be surprised if it went that far, but i could also see the NHL cave with mounting pressure from fans and sponsors.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

The sanctions on Russian organizations and banks are there to cripple the Russian economy. They have already devalued the Ruble and weakened Russia's ability to purchase raw materials to make weapons. It makes it more difficult for them to pay their military. It may increase the chances that the Russian people get fed up and topple their own government. There may be pros and cons to this strategy, but at least there are clear and direct impacts of these measures on trying to shorten the war and reduce casualties. I'm not sure I can say the same thing about banning Russian hockey players from the NHL. How does Malkin or Romanov not playing in the NHL choke the Russian position in the war? Many of these players may be completely against the war but still have family (parents, siblings, children, wives) in Russia and fear repercussions if they were to adamantly speak out.

Imagine your entire family were wrongfully imprisoned somewhere and the warden of the jail decided to organize a group to corrupt law enforcement officers to start killing civilians in the name of the "law"... now what's more likely to be helpful to stalling this? Preventing the warden and his gang from accessing money and supplies? Or firing you and other family members of the prisoners from your jobs on account of your association, in hopes that you'll protest? That's got to be what it feels like right now to be Russian.

The IOC ban on Russia in the Olympics/Paralympics?  Expelling Russia from the World Cup?  Closing national airspace to Russian commercial planes?  How are those things helping to disrupt the war effort?  Canada just banned all imports of Russian Oil and Gas despite the fact that we haven't been importing Russian Oil and Gas for years.  Many of these sanctions are purely symbolic, and this would be no different.  These are Russian celebrities, not everyday working stiffs - nobody is suffering any actual hardships here, and every one of those players could immediately get the same job in the KHL. 

It's like if Canada committed war crimes against another country and then Denmark or whoever cancelled a Drake concert.  Nobody would be saying that Drake was at all responsible for what happened, but it's the symbolic gesture of not just going on cheering and singing along as if nothing was out of the ordinary.

 

 

Switching topics a bit, I get that there are likely many everyday Russian people who are not supporting the war, and even among those that do there are probably many who are working from the viewpoint of having only been shown their side's propaganda.  It's completely unfair to hold individuals to account for their government's actions, especially if their government is authoritarian.  BUT.  What's the alternative here?  There is no real military end to this war, not against a country with Russia's nuclear capabilities and a leader who has been this unpredictable.  If this is going to have any kind of "good" ending, it's going to have to come from within Russia.  It's not fair, but it is probably true.

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40 minutes ago, Manatee-X said:

If this is going to have any kind of "good" ending, it's going to have to come from within Russia.  It's not fair, but it is probably true.

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-businessman-puts-1-million-bounty-on-putins-head-2022-3

A Russian businessman has put a $1 million bounty on Vladimir Putin's head, calling for military officers to arrest him as a war criminal

Remember Bin Laden 

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

The sanctions will also have a measurable negative impact on the average Russian citizen. Many of who could be against this war. Telling privileged Russian NHLers they cannot play in Canada is an inconvenience to them. It also doesn't mean Alexander Ovechkin (or anyone else) has to speak out against Putin and endanger his family. But they should be inconvenienced.

I am pro sanction and I am pro inconvenience. I think that governments and companies should take steps to inconvenience Russia and its people in this moment. I am not proposing anything dire happen to Russian professional athletes in Canada, but I do think we should inconvenience them. You shouldn't get to accrue all of the benefits of having grown up in Russia under an autocratic regime that relies on Western European oil dependency to fund itself, and then not be inconvenienced when your country starts murdering civilians in Kyiv. 

I agree. I do have some limited experience of being inconvenienced because of my nationality.

I worked abroad for a portion of my first two "careers" and was inconvenienced at times by actions of my government and accepted it as a fact of being a Canadian in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some inconveniences such as being shot at in my first career were more inconvenient than others occurred in a second career like having my airplane impounded and being denied a hotel room and food because Canada had taken diplomatic action against the country I was currently in........they were just inconveniences. In one country I was denied fuel because Canadians were killing baby seals! I had a contract ripped up in in a former USSR country because a Russian became available to take my job and I was the foreigner but it was just an inconvenience, I didn't blame the Russian pilot..............at the end of the day I had and still have my Canadian passport and enjoy the benefits that come with it but I also accept the accountability that comes with it and that is my point.  Maybe more Russians should have to do likewise.

I wouldn't worry about a few well paid Russian athletes, regardless of whether they do or do not support Putin they will come out the other side a lot better off than 44 million Ukrainians 

As I type this my government has announced it will be sending some more rocket launchers to the Ukraine, that will inconvenience a few ordinary Russian citizens who don't enjoy the privileges of working in the west. Sometimes the real world intrudes on our games. Canada is just a thin legal sliver away from being at war and we have to accept that reality.  

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

The sanctions will also have a measurable negative impact on the average Russian citizen. Many of who could be against this war. Telling privileged Russian NHLers they cannot play in Canada is an inconvenience to them. It also doesn't mean Alexander Ovechkin (or anyone else) has to speak out against Putin and endanger his family. But they should be inconvenienced.

I am pro sanction and I am pro inconvenience. I think that governments and companies should take steps to inconvenience Russia and its people in this moment. I am not proposing anything dire happen to Russian professional athletes in Canada, but I do think we should inconvenience them. You shouldn't get to accrue all of the benefits of having grown up in Russia under an autocratic regime that relies on Western European oil dependency to fund itself, and then not be inconvenienced when your country starts murdering civilians in Kyiv. 

:5187:

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I get the feeling everyone here has the same viewpoint on many aspects of this situation:

1. The thought that Russia has committed war crimes and is killing innocent people, both Ukrainians and probably some of their own people

2. The point of any action against Russia is to topple their military/government's ability to function and not the everyday citizens

 

The issue of whether to ban Russian hockey players comes down to how to handle the above and whether it is ethically acceptable to prevent someone from doing the job they are contracted to do because of their country of origin. I completely agree that a Russian player not being allowed to play in the NHL is not going to cost them their livelihood in most cases. But is it right? To those supporting a ban on Russian players, I'll toss out a few questions to see where the limits of acceptability lie:

1. A Russian player is in his first year as a pro and is playing in the AHL, making $60,000 a year. Should he be banned knowing he doesn't have the same financial means as star NHL players? Should he be prevented from being called up to the NHL?

2. Panarin is playing for the Rangers and making over 10M a year but has publicly spoken out against Putin. Should he be banned for being Russian?

3. A player like Andrei Markov was born in Russia but has obtained Canadian citizenship. Is he still considered Russian or is it acceptable for him to play because he's also Canadian? Does your answer change if the player still has family in Russia? What if he lives in Russia in the off-season despite being a Canadian citizen? Does the answer change if he publicly speaks out supporting Putin? What if he publicly denounces Putin?

4. A refugee from Russia is living in Montreal and working as a janitor in a high school. They make $30,000 a year. Should they likewise be fired or put on leave and just say it's unfortunate but they're Russian and we need to do what we can to make Russia know we mean business? Does it matter if this is a single parent to young children?

 

I don't think these are straight-forward ethical situations, and I'm not trying to catch people in something here. I'm just trying to get people to think about why they support bans? Is it because the players are Russian? Is it a matter of whether they support Putin? Is it a function of how much money they make? My guess is that most people would feel awkward and morally uneasy about firing the janitor. But if that's the case, then it's not really a matter of whether someone is Russian or not. I'm less sure about whether people would ban a player in the situation of a Markov where they're a Canadian citizen. If you do, then you're essentially saying the Canadian citizenship means nothing and that this person is still a "Russian immigrant" in your mind. I struggle with this, because Canada is a country founded on immigrants and children of immigrants and grandchildren of immigrants. At what point are you considered to be an equal here? In many ways, this is the root of the "systemic discrimination" we have in Canada and in Quebec. Because even though each person has a right to vote and own property and so on, the fact is that many people only consider you to be Canadian or a Quebecer if you look like them and your family has lived here for generations and has the right last name. It's like Francois Legault congratulating the hiring of Chantal Machabee but not Kent Hughes. Both born in Quebec but one has the right name and the other not.

At the end of the day, for me, I completely get the idea of trying to take it to Putin and punish him for his inhumane behavior. It's just not in me to believe you can punish individuals based on where they're born.

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16 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

1. A Russian player is in his first year as a pro and is playing in the AHL, making $60,000 a year. Should he be banned knowing he doesn't have the same financial means as star NHL players? Should he be prevented from being called up to the NHL?

2. Panarin is playing for the Rangers and making over 10M a year but has publicly spoken out against Putin. Should he be banned for being Russian?

3. A player like Andrei Markov was born in Russia but has obtained Canadian citizenship. Is he still considered Russian or is it acceptable for him to play because he's also Canadian? Does your answer change if the player still has family in Russia? What if he lives in Russia in the off-season despite being a Canadian citizen? Does the answer change if he publicly speaks out supporting Putin? What if he publicly denounces Putin?

4. A refugee from Russia is living in Montreal and working as a janitor in a high school. They make $30,000 a year. Should they likewise be fired or put on leave and just say it's unfortunate but they're Russian and we need to do what we can to make Russia know we mean business? Does it matter if this is a single parent to young children?

I'll try to answer these as best as I can. And I'll take the approach of the NHL banning Russian players instead of the government of Canada banning Russian athletes.

These are my initial responses, but I am definitely open to alternative viewpoints here.

1. My initial interest in this subject is about NHL players only. I'm not really sure how I feel about players in the AHL. The goal here is to impact the lives of wealthy Russian athletes, not people who are working for a median annual salary in North America.

2. Yes. I'm also not advocating sending him back to physically reside in Russia. Just wanna be clear on that.

3. I do not have an answer for this one. Pragmatically, are there many current NHLers who hold dual citizenship?

4. No. I think I already made my view clear that this isn't about impacting average Russians living in North America. It's about making a gesture that impacts the lives of wealthy Russian athletes. I would consider wealthy to mean making any NHL level salary.

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I don't know how the argument that we are punishing people for where they are born has taken flight. That is what the American & Canadian governments did when they sent their own citizens, including their native born off spring,  to interment camps in WW 2. This is not the issue here as I understand it. We are talking about cancelling working visas for Russian citizens, not banning them from residing in Canada if they wish to immigrate or visit on a tourist visa. Using the term ban is not productive as it is akin to pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire.

 If a Russian has taken out Canadian citizenship he or she has all the protections that a Canadian citizen has and that includes working in Canada and even supporting Putin. If he or she is solely a Russian citizen, regardless of whether they are born in Russia or not, they have to be prepared to be held accountable. Dual citizenship can be an advantage but also has responsibilities to be taken seriously as any one born in the USA can tell you when tax season comes around.  As I mentioned earlier Canadian citizens are losing their jobs because of these sanctions  yet we seem to want to exclude Russian citizens working in Canada on visas from that possibility .......on a fairness basis.......I don't get it.  

A Russian refugee has clearly made a choice to leave Russia and Big Ted 3 I think you may be disingenuous in bringing them into the discussion.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I'll try to answer these as best as I can. And I'll take the approach of the NHL banning Russian players instead of the government of Canada banning Russian athletes.

These are my initial responses, but I am definitely open to alternative viewpoints here.

1. My initial interest in this subject is about NHL players only. I'm not really sure how I feel about players in the AHL. The goal here is to impact the lives of wealthy Russian athletes, not people who are working for a median annual salary in North America.

2. Yes. I'm also not advocating sending him back to physically reside in Russia. Just wanna be clear on that.

3. I do not have an answer for this one. Pragmatically, are there many current NHLers who hold dual citizenship?

4. No. I think I already made my view clear that this isn't about impacting average Russians living in North America. It's about making a gesture that impacts the lives of wealthy Russian athletes. I would consider wealthy to mean making any NHL level salary.

Thanks for the responses, JR.

So the line you're drawing, as I can see it, is based on being Russian AND "wealthy"... but if you're a Russian living in Canada and aren't wealthy, then we can forgo imposing any kind of punishment on them. Again, I get the idea behind this, but it's still imposing a punishment on a private citizen for something their government is responsible for, and it's saying that the wealthy private citizens are to be held accountable but the poor ones are not. I think the key word you used here is "gesture" as in it's a symbolic move. It's taking out your disgust for Putin on certain individuals just because they're public figures, even though the people themselves haven't done anything wrong other than being born in the wrong country. Again, I understand a bit better where you're drawing your line in the sand, I just don't agree with this fundamentally.

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48 minutes ago, RCAF48 said:

I don't know how the argument that we are punishing people for where they are born has taken flight. That is what the American & Canadian governments did when they sent their own citizens, including their native born off spring,  to interment camps in WW 2. This is not the issue here as I understand it. We are talking about cancelling working visas for Russian citizens, not banning them from residing in Canada if they wish to immigrate or visit on a tourist visa. Using the term ban is not productive as it is akin to pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire.

 If a Russian has taken out Canadian citizenship he or she has all the protections that a Canadian citizen has and that includes working in Canada and even supporting Putin. If he or she is solely a Russian citizen, regardless of whether they are born in Russia or not, they have to be prepared to be held accountable. Dual citizenship can be an advantage but also has responsibilities to be taken seriously as any one born in the USA can tell you when tax season comes around.  As I mentioned earlier Canadian citizens are losing their jobs because of these sanctions  yet we seem to want to exclude Russian citizens working in Canada on visas from that possibility .......on a fairness basis.......I don't get it.  

A Russian refugee has clearly made a choice to leave Russia and Big Ted 3 I think you may be disingenuous in bringing them into the discussion.

Not being disingenuous in the least, just trying to show that the argument is a bit of a slippery slope as to where you draw that line.

The point you're making here is that a Russian citizen should not be allowed to work in the NHL but should still be allowed to live in Canada. But if they've trained as a pro athlete for years, so are they supposed to live here without working at all? Are they supposed to go back to school and learn a new trade? It still amounts as a punishment to me directed at a private citizen for something their government has done, and then past that, we're limiting it to a specific subset of those private citizens whom we deem to be wealthy/famous.

 

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

At the end of the day, for me, I completely get the idea of trying to take it to Putin and punish him for his inhumane behavior. It's just not in me to believe you can punish individuals based on where they're born.

is Russia / Putin being selective on which Ukrainian People ( male, female, women , children, adults , elders etc ) to kill or all Ukrainian people fair game  ?

It sucks to be Russian born right now , but it sucks even more if you are in the Ukraine .

 

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14 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

is Russia / Putin being selective on which Ukrainian People ( male, female, women , children, adults , elders etc ) to kill or all Ukrainian people fair game  ?

It sucks to be Russian born right now , but it sucks even more if you are in the Ukraine .

 

100%. I am wholly against what Putin is doing and support Ukraine's right to defend itself. It doesn't mean I support doing the same things to Russians (and I'll add that I am neither Ukrainian nor Russian and don't have a stake in this other than what I think is humanly right). I don't see how banning Russians from playing in the NHL makes things any better for Ukraine.

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12 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

100%. I am wholly against what Putin is doing and support Ukraine's right to defend itself. It doesn't mean I support doing the same things to Russians (and I'll add that I am neither Ukrainian nor Russian and don't have a stake in this other than what I think is humanly right). I don't see how banning Russians from playing in the NHL makes things any better for Ukraine.

I agree 100% with this thought process,  as well. It is not the Canadian way, to punish people because of their origin. Because this is a too sensitive a subject, I  will not be commenting on it any further. Because I do like to read what's new in NHL NEWS, can we not start a dedicated thread on these sensitive issues? I would appreciate that. Thanks.

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18 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Not being disingenuous in the least, just trying to show that the argument is a bit of a slippery slope as to where you draw that line.

The point you're making here is that a Russian citizen should not be allowed to work in the NHL but should still be allowed to live in Canada. But if they've trained as a pro athlete for years, so are they supposed to live here without working at all? Are they supposed to go back to school and learn a new trade? It still amounts as a punishment to me directed at a private citizen for something their government has done, and then past that, we're limiting it to a specific subset of those private citizens whom we deem to be wealthy/famous.

 

I didn't mention working in the NHL at all in my point that you quoted. I discussed denying working visas which I am sure you understood very well. I am also sure you know the conditions under which Russian citizens are allowed to work,  visit or remain in Canada.

 

11 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

100%. I am wholly against what Putin is doing and support Ukraine's right to defend itself. It doesn't mean I support doing the same things to Russians (and I'll add that I am neither Ukrainian nor Russian and don't have a stake in this other than what I think is humanly right). I don't see how banning Russians from playing in the NHL makes things any better for Ukraine.

You may want to rethink the above post. Comparing the sanctions or the banning of Russian hockey players to bombing women and children is not the point I think you wanted to make. Italics in the quote are are mine.

There is no making things better for the Ukraine but if we make enough noise maybe we can make things better for Latvia, Poland etc

The postings on this subject by various posters have led to a lot of misunderstanding by the readers and I although I don't think war is too sensitive a subject to be discussed maybe when it involves Russian hockey players it becomes too sensitive for this forum.

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42 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 I don't see how banning Russians from playing in the NHL makes things any better for Ukraine.

It doesn't but same as the sanctions, I think ( ? ) the idea is to put pressure on Russia / Russians / Putin  so this screws them up badly and the evil dictator maybe decides to stop this needless war.

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1 hour ago, RCAF48 said:

I didn't mention working in the NHL at all in my point that you quoted. I discussed denying working visas which I am sure you understood very well. I am also sure you know the conditions under which Russian citizens are allowed to work,  visit or remain in Canada.

You may want to rethink the above post. Comparing the sanctions or the banning of Russian hockey players to bombing women and children is not the point I think you wanted to make. Italics in the quote are are mine.

There is no making things better for the Ukraine but if we make enough noise maybe we can make things better for Latvia, Poland etc

The postings on this subject by various posters have led to a lot of misunderstanding by the readers and I although I don't think war is too sensitive a subject to be discussed maybe when it involves Russian hockey players it becomes too sensitive for this forum.

Obviously being bombed and being fired are not the same and I think we both know that's not what I was saying. I was saying, in reply to the original post, that I would not generalize and go after Russians non-discriminantly the way Russia has attacked innocent Ukrainians. Again, I think we all want the same end goal here, we just have different views on what methods should be used to achieve this.

1 hour ago, Regis22 said:

It doesn't but same as the sanctions, I think ( ? ) the idea is to put pressure on Russia / Russians / Putin  so this screws them up badly and the evil dictator maybe decides to stop this needless war.

Sure, the thought process is valid. But Putin is hungry for power and infamy and if shutting down his economy isn't enough to change his viewpoint, I'm not sure banning players from the NHL will change much. Some in the media have actually suggested he may be in favor of this. He has always wanted star Russian players to play In Russia in the KHL, so this only helps him to bring them home. I don't think ti achieves the goal you want it to.

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2 hours ago, electron58 said:

I agree 100% with this thought process,  as well. It is not the Canadian way, to punish people because of their origin. Because this is a too sensitive a subject, I  will not be commenting on it any further. Because I do like to read what's new in NHL NEWS, can we not start a dedicated thread on these sensitive issues? I would appreciate that. Thanks.

Well,,,, there is a Putin's war thread in the lounge but at the same time, the discussion has been about NHL Russian players,, so it is on topic for the most part.

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3 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Obviously being bombed and being fired are not the same and I think we both know that's not what I was saying. I was saying, in reply to the original post, that I would not generalize and go after Russians non-discriminantly the way Russia has attacked innocent Ukrainians. Again, I think we all want the same end goal here, we just have different views on what methods should be used to achieve this.

Sure, the thought process is valid. But Putin is hungry for power and infamy and if shutting down his economy isn't enough to change his viewpoint, I'm not sure banning players from the NHL will change much. Some in the media have actually suggested he may be in favor of this. He has always wanted star Russian players to play In Russia in the KHL, so this only helps him to bring them home. I don't think ti achieves the goal you want it to.

And how are the teams gonna pay them when their economy is in the dumpster? 1 rouble is worth 1 cent U.S. If things are so rosy in Russia what are the players doing coming to North America in the first place? 

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4 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

And how are the teams gonna pay them when their economy is in the dumpster? 1 rouble is worth 1 cent U.S. If things are so rosy in Russia what are the players doing coming to North America in the first place? 

I think the players come here for the prestige of playing in the NHL and facing the best competition in the world. Many of the stars have been offered more money to play in the KHL, so it's not about money. The money at home is clearly becoming an issue, but that's because of other pressure tactics, not because of banning NHLers.

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