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17 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Thanks for the responses, JR.

So the line you're drawing, as I can see it, is based on being Russian AND "wealthy"... but if you're a Russian living in Canada and aren't wealthy, then we can forgo imposing any kind of punishment on them. Again, I get the idea behind this, but it's still imposing a punishment on a private citizen for something their government is responsible for, and it's saying that the wealthy private citizens are to be held accountable but the poor ones are not. I think the key word you used here is "gesture" as in it's a symbolic move. It's taking out your disgust for Putin on certain individuals just because they're public figures, even though the people themselves haven't done anything wrong other than being born in the wrong country. Again, I understand a bit better where you're drawing your line in the sand, I just don't agree with this fundamentally.

I think what I personally want to see happen is for Putin to be punished, removed from his position as leader of Russia, and for democratic form of government to take hold in Russia, enabling a majority of its citizens to take part in representative politics.

The problem I have is... How do we get there? The only way I can see that happening is if the general population of Russia decide to make it so through a sort of new "Russian revolution." I know, I know. Easier said than done. But... I don't think any other country or its population is going to be able to make that happen.

I think putting pressure on Russian citizens is one tool to generate discord and put pressure on the government. That might mean Apple Pay no longer functions in Russia, or it might mean banning Russian athletes from the Paralympics, or it might mean telling Russian NHLers, "Sorry, no more hockey for you."

I think Russian citizens need to feel some discomfort here. My preference is to not harm the average Russian as much as possible, but I'm not sure how targetable different levels of socio-economic classes are in these types of situations. Hitting professional athletes in the pocketbook could make some small iota of difference. And each small iota of difference adds up.

While telling NHLers you can't play won't help Ukraine immediately, I do think I'm taking a longer-term approach to Russia's potential negative future influence on Europe and the rest of the world. What's to stop Putin from invading another non-NATO country in the future?

(Also, I'm enjoying this dialogue everyone. Thanks to all for keeping it polite)

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18 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Thanks for the responses, JR.

So the line you're drawing, as I can see it, is based on being Russian AND "wealthy"... but if you're a Russian living in Canada and aren't wealthy, then we can forgo imposing any kind of punishment on them. Again, I get the idea behind this, but it's still imposing a punishment on a private citizen for something their government is responsible for, and it's saying that the wealthy private citizens are to be held accountable but the poor ones are not. I think the key word you used here is "gesture" as in it's a symbolic move. It's taking out your disgust for Putin on certain individuals just because they're public figures, even though the people themselves haven't done anything wrong other than being born in the wrong country. Again, I understand a bit better where you're drawing your line in the sand, I just don't agree with this fundamentally.

I think that the distinction that I would make for NHL players isn't just that they are wealthy (although that does make it seem less cruel) but that they are celebrities.  Banning a janitor in Canada is going to have no real effect on the average Russian, since nobody would even hear about it.  Banning Ovechkin and Malkin, you can bet that people in Russia who follow hockey will know about it.  Not only that, but if these influential players get fed up enough they might end up lending support towards ending the war, even if just a little bit.

As an equivalent, you don't think that if Carey Price, Brendan Gallagher et al. made a statement about something on twitter that some people in Montreal wouldn't be influenced by that?  I mean I don't think it's going to make a giant difference, really, but every little bit helps.



As an aside, I do understand and respect what you're saying about how it's wrong to punish individuals for the actions of their government.  It's just that at some point the bottom line is that a government does speak for the people (as a whole) in a country - that's what government is.  I agree that it's not fair to punish individuals, especially with a government as autocratic as Russia's, but when the stakes are as high as they are I don't know that everyone has the luxury of being fair.  Where we draw that line is definitely up for discussion (I wouldn't punish the janitor from your example) but for me I would draw NHL players on the wrong side of that line.

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1 hour ago, Manatee-X said:

I think that the distinction that I would make for NHL players isn't just that they are wealthy (although that does make it seem less cruel) but that they are celebrities.  Banning a janitor in Canada is going to have no real effect on the average Russian, since nobody would even hear about it.  Banning Ovechkin and Malkin, you can bet that people in Russia who follow hockey will know about it.  Not only that, but if these influential players get fed up enough they might end up lending support towards ending the war, even if just a little bit.

And even one minor opposition voice could be meaningful given that the government of Russia is currently firmly controlling the messaging through media.

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2 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

I think that the distinction that I would make for NHL players isn't just that they are wealthy (although that does make it seem less cruel) but that they are celebrities.  Banning a janitor in Canada is going to have no real effect on the average Russian, since nobody would even hear about it.  Banning Ovechkin and Malkin, you can bet that people in Russia who follow hockey will know about it.  Not only that, but if these influential players get fed up enough they might end up lending support towards ending the war, even if just a little bit.

As an equivalent, you don't think that if Carey Price, Brendan Gallagher et al. made a statement about something on twitter that some people in Montreal wouldn't be influenced by that?  I mean I don't think it's going to make a giant difference, really, but every little bit helps.



As an aside, I do understand and respect what you're saying about how it's wrong to punish individuals for the actions of their government.  It's just that at some point the bottom line is that a government does speak for the people (as a whole) in a country - that's what government is.  I agree that it's not fair to punish individuals, especially with a government as autocratic as Russia's, but when the stakes are as high as they are I don't know that everyone has the luxury of being fair.  Where we draw that line is definitely up for discussion (I wouldn't punish the janitor from your example) but for me I would draw NHL players on the wrong side of that line.

Understood. And I guess I would simply say that when you have someone who doesn't behave rationally like Putin, if his own people are protesting and billionaires are having their yachts seized and you've fired your top military general for disagreeing with you and you're bombing nuclear power plants, having Ovechkin banned likely isn't going to register with you. I think he's just more or less set in his thinking about what he wants to do, unfortunately, so my view is that only the individuals are going to pay the price for it. I think we've reached the point where this won't end until Putin is no longer in power. Don't know what it'll take to get to that point.

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And just to show the slippery slope this goes down, agent Dan Milstein says he has a Russian-born teenage client playing in the OHL who is being targeted with anti-Russian slurs at games and in school. Personally, I think the dialogue has to change from people being okay with blaming Russians for what Putin is doing. I don't think Putin speaks for even a majority of Russians.

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49 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

And just to show the slippery slope this goes down, agent Dan Milstein says he has a Russian-born teenage client playing in the OHL who is being targeted with anti-Russian slurs at games and in school. Personally, I think the dialogue has to change from people being okay with blaming Russians for what Putin is doing. I don't think Putin speaks for even a majority of Russians.

What a world  we've become eh ?         

Kinda like Asians being blamed for Coivid19

and I still don't know why Putin started this war 

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Now Im  reading on instagram that the Russian government wants to implement laws of 15 yrs in prison for spreading fake news o the war in the Ukraine - in otherwords keep your mouth shut 

 

 

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22 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

And just to show the slippery slope this goes down, agent Dan Milstein says he has a Russian-born teenage client playing in the OHL who is being targeted with anti-Russian slurs at games and in school. Personally, I think the dialogue has to change from people being okay with blaming Russians for what Putin is doing. I don't think Putin speaks for even a majority of Russians.

I agree did all Germans agree with Hitler? People have no choice as to where they are born. A lot don't have the means to be able to leave their families and home either. It is to easy for anyone living in a free society to speak out and then to question why other citizens in different countries don't or actually can't. The "trucker protest would have never happened in Russia , China , N.Korea. Those who live in a free society don't really understand. We all hope for and end to war and for everyone to live in a free society. I just can't see punishing all from those countries. 

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A North Bay Russian player was chirped by an opponent OMG!!!! The Sudbury player will be disciplined, miss some games and be reminded that sexual orientation, race, and nationality are off limits and to stick with normal expletives when chirping....the Russian players will continue to chirp the Canadians in Russian and, of course, have always  refrained from any disrespectful chirps towards Canada.  Chirping is a slippery slope that started when humans started to walk upright....doesn't mean it is right to do so but it is hardly one of civilization's major problems.

Millstein was born in the Ukraine and is  an American citizen who lives in Florida and has a client list of 75% Russian/Belarusian players. He has a vested interest in having the Canadian junior hockey leagues continue to develop his stable of players in slots that could be used for Canadian young men. He often entertains his clients including Evander Kane on his yacht in Jupiter Fl .  Milstein, in trying to obtain Canadian junior roster slots for his clients, referred to his young players as children being discriminated against....give me a break. Milstein is more interested in keeping his rice bowl full than worrying about "Russian children". By his definition there are children in the ranks of Russian soldiers bringing about regime change in the Ukraine.....It would have been nicer if those soldiers started their attempted regime change at home.

I do live in a free society and in the past my government has asked its' citizens to visit less free societies to help them bring about regime change but I have always wished that the natives of those countries would do their own heavy lifting with less assistance. There are Canadian citizens in Latvia right now ready to help and they are missing their children's ski races and hockey games but they will not strike until Russian citizens strike against Latvia...... a significance difference between the Russian and western nations.

Everyone is free to feel sympathy for all the Russian hockey players...... I may be one of the outliers in a sometimes virtue signalling culture in that I have less sympathy for Russian players than I do for Canadian and Ukrainian players. I respect the ordinary Russians' dilemma but my past experiences with some Russian citizens in Canada, over the North Atlantic, in Germany, in Kazakhstan, in Serbia, in Sudan, in Eritrea and Ethiopia has contributed to a cynicism that has lead to not giving Russians "the benefit of the doubt" that I give Americans or God forbid even the English.....my ancestors are Irish so not to shoot an Englishman on sight was a major breakthrough in my journey to become the kinder, caring human being I have become.:ph34r:  When my daughter married an Englishman I had to self medicate.:rolleyes:

NHL Russian hockey players are welcome to continue on their working visas as all other Russian citizens working here are until my government says otherwise. Since Romanov hasn't endorsed Putin of course I will continue to cheer for him.... not so much for Ovi. However, if the Canadian government decides to cancel all Russian visas my sympathy might be a bit muted.

I fully respect and join with other posters' wishes for world peace without inconveniencing "ordinary" Russian citizens.  I just don't think it is possible.

 

 

 

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NHL.com.  Washington forward Carl Hagelin will be out indefinitely after eye surgery.  Hagelin was struck with a stick during a battle drill near the end of practice.  He will remain under the care of the team's medical staff and will have additional follow up evaluations.  

 

 

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13 minutes ago, CANADIENS27 said:

NHL.com.  New Jersey will not offer PK Subban a contract.  At 32, he would also be a UFA.  Where are his landing spots likely to be?  Montreal might be out of the question.  

 

 

Montreal better be out of the question .  Let’s move forward not backwards . Sentimental signings are nice for the fan base but they don’t win hockey games . 
 

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6 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Group of Russian NHL players could not agree on a statement to issue . 
 

Hmmmmm☹️🤫

Do all Americans or Canadiens agree on everything.......after COVID I'm pretty sure a big NO. Also we have nothing to fear where they all have relatives friends ect. to be concerned about. Also they shouldn't have to.

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5 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

Do all Americans or Canadiens agree on everything.......after COVID I'm pretty sure a big NO. Also we have nothing to fear where they all have relatives friends ect. to be concerned about. Also they shouldn't have to.

Tell them to get their families out of Russia and grow a pair (  sorry ...........but their are innocent Ukranians ( men , women, children , babies , old, young ) dying for nothing 

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The Austin Mathews love -in is in full force today on the Toronto air waves 

He is the most dominat player on the planet who could win the Hart , Art Ross and Rocket Richard Trophy's 

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5 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Tell them to get their families out of Russia and grow a pair (  sorry ...........but their are innocent Ukranians ( men , women, children , babies , old, young ) dying for nothing 

That is sad and true, but it's not like if any of us decide to move all of our families not just immediate to another State or Province. You are talking moving to another nation! Much easier said than done. Also, even if every Hockey player spoke out that is not going to sway Putin one bit. Hockey is an industry along with a sport. That said it is an industry that any country could do without. 

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5 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

The Austin Mathews love -in is in full force today on the Toronto air waves 

He is the most dominat player on the planet who could win the Hart , Art Ross and Rocket Richard Trophy's 

Maybe we won't hear McJesus all the time at least. 

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28 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

Maybe we won't hear McJesus all the time at least. 

Even Al's Brother is hyping # 34 .

" the greatest player on the planet right now is Austin Mathews "

Make's you wanna hope the Leafs fall flat again come playoff time 

 

 

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