2021-22 Rumours

[habsisme]

14 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

too much . Montreal's D is already struggling and you're giving away 2 D men  

oh I wouldn't do it for Marner, to me Marner has very little value. But if you do value him like a top 10 player in the league, you're getting a young star player for a bunch of spare parts. It's a rebuild move

[campabee82]

4 minutes ago, habsisme said:

oh I wouldn't do it for Marner, to me Marner has very little value. But if you do value him like a top 10 player in the league, you're getting a young star player for a bunch of spare parts. It's a rebuild move

I agree Marner isn't likely to be moved until at least the summer but like you said it is a fun game to play lol.

[HabsAlways]

This forum makes me chuckle sometimes ... everyone undervaluing Marner.     In the past 2 seaons he had 135 pts in 114 games ... I'd argue he's better than Matthews, heck I'd argue that without Marner, Matthews is a 30-35g guy.    Marner drives 90% of the leafs offense. 

Sure we can analyze his value in the playoffs, but that would be based off playing for a team where the entire roster choked three years in a row.

For the right package, I'd take Marner over any of our wingers (except Caufield).

[campabee82]

21 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

This forum makes me chuckle sometimes ... everyone undervaluing Marner.     In the past 2 seaons he had 135 pts in 114 games ... I'd argue he's better than Matthews, heck I'd argue that without Marner, Matthews is a 30-35g guy.    Marner drives 90% of the leafs offense. 

Sure we can analyze his value in the playoffs, but that would be based off playing for a team where the entire roster choked three years in a row.

For the right package, I'd take Marner over any of our wingers (except Caufield).

I don't think anyone is undervaluing Marner (except maybe Leafs fans who want to waive him or terminate his contract then resign him to league minimum LMAO. Check out capfriendly to see all the ridiculous Leafs fans going off lol). All that aside what is "the right package" to you. That is really all we are doing in this exercise anyway.

[HabsAlways]

3 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I don't think anyone is undervaluing Marner (except maybe Leafs fans who want to waive him or terminate his contract then resign him to league minimum LMAO. Check out capfriendly to see all the ridiculous Leafs fans going off lol). All that aside what is "the right package" to you. That is really all we are doing in this exercise anyway.

Any of our forwards outside of Suzuki, Caufield would do for me ... the issue being I dont see a reasonable package that Toronto would accept for an inconferance trade.      Say Drouin + 1st for Marner, or Toffoli+1st ... again, I don't see Laughs accepting anything reasonable at this time.   Off season maybe, but not right now.

[H_T_L]

Yeah,,, i'd take Marner in a heartbeat. He's the only guy that really would be of interest to me. Mathews no doubt is untouchable, so no sense even going there. I'd go Gally plus Byron for the Cap room, along with any one prospect in the farm system and maybe a 1st in 2023 (lottery protected). Probably nowhere near what they would ask for the guy.

[H_T_L]

Another likely NO deal scenario.

Straight trade (almost Cap neutral,,,Leafs gain 200K in room)

Marner and Campbell

For Price and Kulak

We get an elite wing and a backup for Allen and they get the coveted starter and a little depth on D.

[maas_art]

17 hours ago, habsisme said:

I wouldn't want Marner, he's an incredible player but I just don't think you can pay a winger who doesn't score goals 10 million dollars. I don't think Marner is getting moved in-season anyway, but maybe this summer if Leafs don't do something significant this year. BUT I wanna play the game anyway lol

I'm really trying to think from the Leafs perspective and what could really fill out their line-up because they're not giving him up for nothing. I would make a trade like this: Evans, Lehkonen (salary retained), Edmunson, Chiarot (salary retained), and Toffoli (or another of out better wingers). I think that's a trade the Leafs would love to make even though we get the best player in the deal. Its the type of move I think the leaves should make anyway

 

17 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

This forum makes me chuckle sometimes ... everyone undervaluing Marner.     In the past 2 seaons he had 135 pts in 114 games ... I'd argue he's better than Matthews, heck I'd argue that without Marner, Matthews is a 30-35g guy.    Marner drives 90% of the leafs offense. 

Sure we can analyze his value in the playoffs, but that would be based off playing for a team where the entire roster choked three years in a row.

For the right package, I'd take Marner over any of our wingers (except Caufield).

Marner is a tough one because he's absolutely an incredible player and there's no doubt in my mind he will bounce back. But on the flipside a (nearly) $11m cap hit is tough to swallow. He makes close to the same amount as Toffoli - Dvorak -Hoffman.  Thats a pretty high quality line.    On a team like ours, where depth is our only high point, id have a hard time paying him that sort of coin.  

If he was a #1 centre or defensman, id definitely try to make something work but wingers -even elite ones, are not really high on our list of needs. 

[ChiLla]

There's a (pay-walled) article on The Athletic by Basu and Godin, they're reporting Waddel offered the 2 compensation picks we got for the succesful OS plus one of their prospects not named Seth Jarvis before submitting the offer sheet, so we could have taken those picks plus one of Rees, Gunler, Bokk, or Ryan Suzuki. Looks like the Habs weren't willing to do that though and thought the Hurricanes were bluffing, so Carolina pulled the trigger and paid Kotkaniemi 6.1M.

[H_T_L]

7 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

There's a (pay-walled) article on The Athletic by Basu and Godin, they're reporting Waddel offered the 2 compensation picks we got for the succesful OS plus one of their prospects not named Seth Jarvis before submitting the offer sheet, so we could have taken those picks plus one of Rees, Gunler, Bokk, or Ryan Suzuki. Looks like the Habs weren't willing to do that though and thought the Hurricanes were bluffing, so Carolina pulled the trigger and paid Kotkaniemi 6.1M.

Would suck if it's true but it could also just be more trolling from the Canes organization. Maybe just another dig.

[ChiLla]

21 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Would suck if it's true but it could also just be more trolling from the Canes organization. Maybe just another dig.

Absolutely, no idea if it's true. They could have certainly 'leaked' that piece of information on purpose.

[maas_art]

43 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

There's a (pay-walled) article on The Athletic by Basu and Godin, they're reporting Waddel offered the 2 compensation picks we got for the succesful OS plus one of their prospects not named Seth Jarvis before submitting the offer sheet, so we could have taken those picks plus one of Rees, Gunler, Bokk, or Ryan Suzuki. Looks like the Habs weren't willing to do that though and thought the Hurricanes were bluffing, so Carolina pulled the trigger and paid Kotkaniemi 6.1M.

 

11 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

Absolutely, no idea if it's true. They could have certainly 'leaked' that piece of information on purpose.

Yeah, considering all the garbage they have pulled trolling on their social media, I would say its more than likely they leaked an exaggerated offer.  If MB would walk away from JK just because of money, I feel like 1st, 3rd + Suzuki would have gotten it done for him.  More likely they offered Suzuki or Gunier + 3rd.  Not the prospect, the 1st and the 3rd.  

 

[habsisme]

47 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

There's a (pay-walled) article on The Athletic by Basu and Godin, they're reporting Waddel offered the 2 compensation picks we got for the succesful OS plus one of their prospects not named Seth Jarvis before submitting the offer sheet, so we could have taken those picks plus one of Rees, Gunler, Bokk, or Ryan Suzuki. Looks like the Habs weren't willing to do that though and thought the Hurricanes were bluffing, so Carolina pulled the trigger and paid Kotkaniemi 6.1M.

I think it's believable. I wouldn't have made the deal with the thinking that they would never be willing to pay that much and I could just match. Would have been nice to have Ryan. 

[electron58]

1 hour ago, ChiLla said:

There's a (pay-walled) article on The Athletic by Basu and Godin, they're reporting Waddel offered the 2 compensation picks we got for the succesful OS plus one of their prospects not named Seth Jarvis before submitting the offer sheet, so we could have taken those picks plus one of Rees, Gunler, Bokk, or Ryan Suzuki. Looks like the Habs weren't willing to do that though and thought the Hurricanes were bluffing, so Carolina pulled the trigger and paid Kotkaniemi 6.1M.

Then bergebin should have been fired on the spot. That's an incredibly fair offer, even more value than what KK was worth. We could have had 2 Suzers. 

[26NCounting]

 

53 minutes ago, electron58 said:

Then bergebin should have been fired on the spot. That's an incredibly fair offer, even more value than what KK was worth. We could have had 2 Suzers. 

I agree!! MB is like the Barney Fife of NHL GM's

[BigTed3]

4 hours ago, ChiLla said:

There's a (pay-walled) article on The Athletic by Basu and Godin, they're reporting Waddel offered the 2 compensation picks we got for the succesful OS plus one of their prospects not named Seth Jarvis before submitting the offer sheet, so we could have taken those picks plus one of Rees, Gunler, Bokk, or Ryan Suzuki. Looks like the Habs weren't willing to do that though and thought the Hurricanes were bluffing, so Carolina pulled the trigger and paid Kotkaniemi 6.1M.

Keep in mind that without the offer sheet, it could be that Carolina had an offer in place for say 4 years at 3.25M... this way, they might be doing the 6.1M x 1 year then hoping they get JK signed to 3-3.5M per year for a few more years afterwards. But there was definitely an advantage for them to not do the OS and take less of a cap hit, so it's plausible they offered more in a trade in order to avoid the OS contract...

[habsisme]

24 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Keep in mind that without the offer sheet, it could be that Carolina had an offer in place for say 4 years at 3.25M... this way, they might be doing the 6.1M x 1 year then hoping they get JK signed to 3-3.5M per year for a few more years afterwards. But there was definitely an advantage for them to not do the OS and take less of a cap hit, so it's plausible they offered more in a trade in order to avoid the OS contract...

Yeah I think it's very believable 

[campabee82]

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Keep in mind that without the offer sheet, it could be that Carolina had an offer in place for say 4 years at 3.25M... this way, they might be doing the 6.1M x 1 year then hoping they get JK signed to 3-3.5M per year for a few more years afterwards. But there was definitely an advantage for them to not do the OS and take less of a cap hit, so it's plausible they offered more in a trade in order to avoid the OS contract...

The problem with this is that Carolina couldn't have had an extension in place or even drafted since KK was still part of the Montreal organization. The only way they could have talked to KK is IF Montreal had agreed as part of a trade being finalized and since Montreal never agreed to a trade then Carolina was probably never given permission. Then the OS came and the rules regarding an extension change as well. Since the OS is only for 1 year that means Carolina can't talk about an extension until Jan 1st 2022, if they do that is player tampering and can result in significant penalties. The only thing that Carolina could have discussed prior to the OS is the OS itself. I doubt that MB would have turned down Suzuki + 1st + 3rd and more likely like was stated above the offer was more like Suzuki + 3rd or something similar. Remember these 2 ownership/management groups don't like each other very much so the Canes aren't likely to offer more to avoid an OS and in fact might try to strongarm MB into taking less for fear of the OS.

[habsisme]

7 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

The problem with this is that Carolina couldn't have had an extension in place or even drafted since KK was still part of the Montreal organization. The only way they could have talked to KK is IF Montreal had agreed as part of a trade being finalized and since Montreal never agreed to a trade then Carolina was probably never given permission. Then the OS came and the rules regarding an extension change as well. Since the OS is only for 1 year that means Carolina can't talk about an extension until Jan 1st 2022, if they do that is player tampering and can result in significant penalties. The only thing that Carolina could have discussed prior to the OS is the OS itself. I doubt that MB would have turned down Suzuki + 1st + 3rd and more likely like was stated above the offer was more like Suzuki + 3rd or something similar. Remember these 2 ownership/management groups don't like each other very much so the Canes aren't likely to offer more to avoid an OS and in fact might try to strongarm MB into taking less for fear of the OS.

They could have talked to KK about anything they wanted before the offer sheet. I don't know why everyone thinks we should have taken Suzuki, 1st, and 3rd. I would definitely not have made that trade for KK! Remember this is KK before he was attached to 6.1 million. If I were MB I would have thought 1) they'll never actually go that high and 2) I'll just match. 

[maas_art]

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Keep in mind that without the offer sheet, it could be that Carolina had an offer in place for say 4 years at 3.25M... this way, they might be doing the 6.1M x 1 year then hoping they get JK signed to 3-3.5M per year for a few more years afterwards. But there was definitely an advantage for them to not do the OS and take less of a cap hit, so it's plausible they offered more in a trade in order to avoid the OS contract...

Dont disagree they would value him more in a trade than OS but you would have to think that MB would at least consider 'life after kotkaniemi" and had to imagine that the offer would probably come in somewhere between $2m-4.3m (in which case we match - the compensation is just a 2nd rounder) or between $4.3m - 6.5M (1st-3rd)

So he knew he'd be either in a situation to match or potentially be walking away for less than what they were offering. I guess maybe he thought they'd only offer $4.5-5 and he'd swallow that but who knows.

I still imagine that if Carolina had made an offer including a blue-chip prospect it was instead of a 1st rounder, not as well as one.   

[maas_art]

4 minutes ago, habsisme said:

 Remember this is KK before he was attached to 6.1 million. If I were MB I would have thought 1) they'll never actually go that high and 2) I'll just match. 

There's no doubt in my mind MB thought they were bluffing. Not that they wouldnt make an OS but I think he assumed it would be $1.5m or so less than it was. 

Its still a risk for them. We shall see how this plays out & right now I give them credit, it was a clever way to get a young, highly touted player, but he's still just 'potential' at this point.
 

[campabee82]

2 minutes ago, habsisme said:

They could have talked to KK about anything they wanted before the offer sheet. I don't know why everyone thinks we should have taken Suzuki, 1st, and 3rd. I would definitely not have made that trade for KK! Remember this is KK before he was attached to 6.1 million. If I were MB I would have thought 1) they'll never actually go that high and 2) I'll just match. 

Actually since the Habs held his rights the only thing the Canes could discuss is an OS nothing past that. Even the Habs couldn't have discussed KK's next contract only his extension. Future contracts can not be discussed until the final year of the current contract and since the OS is only 1 year in length then the Canes can't discuss an extension until Jan 1st.

[habsisme]

1 minute ago, campabee82 said:

Actually since the Habs held his rights the only thing the Canes could discuss is an OS nothing past that. Even the Habs couldn't have discussed KK's next contract only his extension. Future contracts can not be discussed until the final year of the current contract and since the OS is only 1 year in length then the Canes can't discuss an extension until Jan 1st.

yeah but the contract he was signing, and the offer sheet he eventually did sign, could have been any length (up to 8 years) so they could have discussed all this. Technically, once the offer sheet is signed there is nothing to discuss until January 1st. But BEFORE he signed the OS I'm sure they discussed contracts of various lengths and dollar signs. 

[campabee82]

Just now, habsisme said:

yeah but the contract he was signing, and the offer sheet he eventually did sign, could have been any length (up to 8 years) so they could have discussed all this. Technically, once the offer sheet is signed there is nothing to discuss until January 1st. But BEFORE he signed the OS I'm sure they discussed contracts of various lengths and dollar signs. 

No they couldn't have, the contract IF traded could be discussed ONLY if Montreal allows Carolina to talk to him about it, which they did not because they did not accept the trade offer. After that ONLY the terms of the OS can be discussed, since that term was 1 year at 6.1 Mil nothing else could be discussed. We can go round and round all we want but the CBA is clear on this. anything discussed outside of the terms of the OS is player tampering, just like if Montreal had extended KK and then discussed his next deal. Waddell himself said the OS was drawn up by his side and KK's side had no input on the term or value of the OS. It was himself, Dundon and the PR team.

[ramcharger440]

at this point who cares? it is done.