2021-22 Rumours

[habsisme]

19 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

How would we know that?

1. Mulder is not an orthopedic or spinal surgeon

2. Buffalo hasn't agreed to release any medical records to other teams yet

My understanding is that everyone knows what the medical situation is and many don't want to risk him having the surgery he wants. There doesn't appear be anything lift to learn.

I would trade for Eichel but if it requires suzuki, caufield or even this years first.... there better not be much more offered imo

[AH64]

6 hours ago, habsisme said:

My understanding is that everyone knows what the medical situation is and many don't want to risk him having the surgery he wants. There doesn't appear be anything lift to learn.

I would trade for Eichel but if it requires suzuki, caufield or even this years first.... there better not be much more offered imo

agreed

[BigTed3]

Rumors suggest Eichel drawing serious interest from Vegas but also now Calgary. Kevin Weekes and others have reported that Calgary has offered Matthew Tkachuk (or the option of taking Sean Monahan instead), a 1st rounder, a recent 1st round prospect, and two other prospects as the offer to Buffalo.

So let's try to put that offer into a Habs offer as close as we can generate... IMO the closest player we have to Tkachuk is Anderson. So we move to a question of whether we might give up a package like this for Eichel:

 

- Josh Anderson

- Kaiden Guhle

- Jordan Harris

- Ryan Poehling

- 2023 1st round pick (top 5 protected)

 

[campabee82]

4 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Rumors suggest Eichel drawing serious interest from Vegas but also now Calgary. Kevin Weekes and others have reported that Calgary has offered Matthew Tkachuk (or the option of taking Sean Monahan instead), a 1st rounder, a recent 1st round prospect, and two other prospects as the offer to Buffalo.

So let's try to put that offer into a Habs offer as close as we can generate... IMO the closest player we have to Tkachuk is Anderson. So we move to a question of whether we might give up a package like this for Eichel:

 

- Josh Anderson

- Kaiden Guhle

- Jordan Harris

- Ryan Poehling

- 2023 1st round pick (top 5 protected)

 

I would try to tier the 1st based on ppg, something like

1.0ppg or more = unprotected 1st

0.75- 0.99ppg top 10 protected

0.50-0.74ppg top 20 protected

0.0-0.49ppg 2nd round pick

Just to protect form losing Eichel + all that

[habsisme]

7 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Rumors suggest Eichel drawing serious interest from Vegas but also now Calgary. Kevin Weekes and others have reported that Calgary has offered Matthew Tkachuk (or the option of taking Sean Monahan instead), a 1st rounder, a recent 1st round prospect, and two other prospects as the offer to Buffalo.

So let's try to put that offer into a Habs offer as close as we can generate... IMO the closest player we have to Tkachuk is Anderson. So we move to a question of whether we might give up a package like this for Eichel:

 

- Josh Anderson

- Kaiden Guhle

- Jordan Harris

- Ryan Poehling

- 2023 1st round pick (top 5 protected)

 

I would make that deal

[ramcharger440]

I don't know, I like the idea off Eichel but I am not sure it is worth the big payout. Will he recover to 100% if we are not 100%sure I don't think he is worth the risk. We are not as bad as we have played there have been a bunch of factors that caused us to slump so much injuries the long run last year CC and Zuke having rough starts issues with coaching so much so that new direction at the top and perhaps behind the bench would really help. Getting Price back and Eddy will help too the big issues are still with the D. Imagine the same forward group with Letang or Hamilton or even Subban on the backend that would take a ton of pressure off of Petry who plays very well with Eddy then you could have a proper second pairing and give your forwards the chance at much better breakouts! this would transform the team. getting Eichel does not fix our fundamental issues he is just another bit of sparkle to distract from the teams main issues.

[habsisme]

6 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I don't know, I like the idea off Eichel but I am not sure it is worth the big payout. Will he recover to 100% if we are not 100%sure I don't think he is worth the risk. We are not as bad as we have played there have been a bunch of factors that caused us to slump so much injuries the long run last year CC and Zuke having rough starts issues with coaching so much so that new direction at the top and perhaps behind the bench would really help. Getting Price back and Eddy will help too the big issues are still with the D. Imagine the same forward group with Letang or Hamilton or even Subban on the backend that would take a ton of pressure off of Petry who plays very well with Eddy then you could have a proper second pairing and give your forwards the chance at much better breakouts! this would transform the team. getting Eichel does not fix our fundamental issues he is just another bit of sparkle to distract from the teams main issues.

He's an elite #1 center. He's always worth trading for. If we can get Eichel without giving up Suzuki, Caufield or a top 5 pick. You have to do it. I just think Eichel doesn't want to come her and/or Buffalo will demand one of the 3 I don't want to give up

[Graeme-1]

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Rumors suggest Eichel drawing serious interest from Vegas but also now Calgary. Kevin Weekes and others have reported that Calgary has offered Matthew Tkachuk (or the option of taking Sean Monahan instead), a 1st rounder, a recent 1st round prospect, and two other prospects as the offer to Buffalo.

So let's try to put that offer into a Habs offer as close as we can generate... IMO the closest player we have to Tkachuk is Anderson. So we move to a question of whether we might give up a package like this for Eichel:

 

- Josh Anderson

- Kaiden Guhle

- Jordan Harris

- Ryan Poehling

- 2023 1st round pick (top 5 protected)

 

I'd definitely do that, which makes me think Buffalo wouldn't.

I think the main problems are Anderson is a pretty big drop from Tkachuk (I get stats aren't everything, but we're talking about a 0.79 point-per-game player who's hit 77 points  vs 0.44 and never hitting 50). Even just based on reputations, I never hear Anderson talked about in the same breath as Tkachuk.  I also suspect Poehling has limited value: he was a low first rounder who had a horrendous last stint in the NHL and hasn't played an NHL game since: hard to imagine teams giving anything more than 3rd for him at this point.

Honestly I think any deal has to start with Suzuki or Caufield. I also wouldn't move Suzuki (not that such a deal would be necessarily unfair, but I just think the risk of that move outweighs the potential benefit), but I think we'd need to consider Caufield (Eichel + Suzuki down the middle is one solid core to build around).  It would be painful, but you're not getting a top-10 center without the return being somewhat painful to lose.

[habsisme]

17 minutes ago, Graeme-1 said:

I'd definitely do that, which makes me think Buffalo wouldn't.

I think the main problems are Anderson is a pretty big drop from Tkachuk (I get stats aren't everything, but we're talking about a 0.79 point-per-game player who's hit 77 points  vs 0.44 and never hitting 50). Even just based on reputations, I never hear Anderson talked about in the same breath as Tkachuk.  I also suspect Poehling has limited value: he was a low first rounder who had a horrendous last stint in the NHL and hasn't played an NHL game since: hard to imagine teams giving anything more than 3rd for him at this point.

Honestly I think any deal has to start with Suzuki or Caufield. I also wouldn't move Suzuki (not that such a deal would be necessarily unfair, but I just think the risk of that move outweighs the potential benefit), but I think we'd need to consider Caufield (Eichel + Suzuki down the middle is one solid core to build around).  It would be painful, but you're not getting a top-10 center without the return being somewhat painful to lose.

But Caufield and what? They have to take back salary too. I'd give up Canfieldbfor Eichel but im not including much more than 2nd round picks and B prospect outside the roster players we have to give up just to make it work cap wise

[maas_art]

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Rumors suggest Eichel drawing serious interest from Vegas but also now Calgary. Kevin Weekes and others have reported that Calgary has offered Matthew Tkachuk (or the option of taking Sean Monahan instead), a 1st rounder, a recent 1st round prospect, and two other prospects as the offer to Buffalo.

So let's try to put that offer into a Habs offer as close as we can generate... IMO the closest player we have to Tkachuk is Anderson. So we move to a question of whether we might give up a package like this for Eichel:

 

- Josh Anderson

- Kaiden Guhle

- Jordan Harris

- Ryan Poehling

- 2023 1st round pick (top 5 protected)

 

In a heartbeat.  obviously in this scenario they are giving up quality for (young) quantity but i still think they would want a centre with a higher ceiling than poehling. I could see them making this deal if JK was still with us and subbed for RP. 

Could you imagine Eichel- Suzuki-Dvorak-Evans down the middle.  Wow. 

[electron58]

2 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I don't know, I like the idea off Eichel but I am not sure it is worth the big payout. Will he recover to 100% if we are not 100%sure I don't think he is worth the risk. We are not as bad as we have played there have been a bunch of factors that caused us to slump so much injuries the long run last year CC and Zuke having rough starts issues with coaching so much so that new direction at the top and perhaps behind the bench would really help. Getting Price back and Eddy will help too the big issues are still with the D. Imagine the same forward group with Letang or Hamilton or even Subban on the backend that would take a ton of pressure off of Petry who plays very well with Eddy then you could have a proper second pairing and give your forwards the chance at much better breakouts! this would transform the team. getting Eichel does not fix our fundamental issues he is just another bit of sparkle to distract from the teams main issues.

Kinda like when the Leafs got Tavares, albeit for free.  They didn't address their defence.

[Graeme-1]

49 minutes ago, habsisme said:

But Caufield and what? They have to take back salary too. I'd give up Canfieldbfor Eichel but im not including much more than 2nd round picks and B prospect outside the roster players we have to give up just to make it work cap wise

Ya we'd need to dump salary and Caufield alone isn't going to get you Eichel anyways (he had a great playoffs and his stock has risen since being drafted, but he's still an unproven mid-first-round prospect, while Eichel is a proven top-10 center).

I'd think the package would look like:

• Caufield
• Dvorak (kind of need to send a center back the other way, plus helps with salary)
• Their choice of winger (Drouin, Anderson, Gallagher, Toffolli, Hoffman), mostly for salary reasons although I think at least one of these guys would be somewhat appealing to them anyways
• 1st round pick (lottery protected)
• Guhle

Is it a lot? Yes. But you're getting a 25 year old top-10 center without giving up much off the current roster (basically a 2-3 center and a decent 2nd line winger), so the future pieces are going to be painful to lose.

So I think it's a fair trade. The bigger question is should we do it? If we were an elite center away from contending the next 5 years, then I think you have to bite the bullet and take the risk. However, this team sure looks like it needs a rebuild, and if in that case, getting a player who's 5 years from UFA and giving up a few of our top prospects in the process doesn't make a lot of sense.  Ultimately that's why I don't think the Habs are in serious consideration here: while I love the idea of Eichel-Suzuki down the middle and feel like you can easily build around that, this team may still need a rebuild, and in that case I just don't think a deal that involves giving up a lot of future pieces makes much sense, but we're not getting Eichel by giving up spare parts from the 3rd worst team in the league either, so I don't think there's a good match.

[habsisme]

5 minutes ago, Graeme-1 said:

Ya we'd need to dump salary and Caufield alone isn't going to get you Eichel anyways (he had a great playoffs and his stock has risen since being drafted, but he's still an unproven mid-first-round prospect, while Eichel is a proven top-10 center).

I'd think the package would look like:

• Caufield
• Dvorak (kind of need to send a center back the other way, plus helps with salary)
• Their choice of winger (Drouin, Anderson, Gallagher, Toffolli, Hoffman), mostly for salary reasons although I think at least one of these guys would be somewhat appealing to them anyways
• 1st round pick (lottery protected)
• Guhle

Is it a lot? Yes. But you're getting a 25 year old top-10 center without giving up much off the current roster (basically a 2-3 center and a decent 2nd line winger), so the future pieces are going to be painful to lose.

So I think it's a fair trade. The bigger question is should we do it? If we were an elite center away from contending the next 5 years, then I think you have to bite the bullet and take the risk. However, this team sure looks like it needs a rebuild, and if in that case, getting a player who's 5 years from UFA and giving up a few of our top prospects in the process doesn't make a lot of sense.  Ultimately that's why I don't think the Habs are in serious consideration here: while I love the idea of Eichel-Suzuki down the middle and feel like you can easily build around that, this team may still need a rebuild, and in that case I just don't think a deal that involves giving up a lot of future pieces makes much sense, but we're not getting Eichel by giving up spare parts from the 3rd worst team in the league either, so I don't think there's a good match.

see this is they type of offer that might do it (if Eichel even wants to come here). But I honestly don't know if it's worth it. I feel like I would do it if you removed Dvorak or the first round pick from the deal

[olddude]

8 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

Ya we'd need to dump salary and Caufield alone isn't going to get you Eichel anyways (he had a great playoffs and his stock has risen since being drafted, but he's still an unproven mid-first-round prospect, while Eichel is a proven top-10 center).

I'd think the package would look like:

• Caufield
• Dvorak (kind of need to send a center back the other way, plus helps with salary)
• Their choice of winger (Drouin, Anderson, Gallagher, Toffolli, Hoffman), mostly for salary reasons although I think at least one of these guys would be somewhat appealing to them anyways
• 1st round pick (lottery protected)
• Guhle

Is it a lot? Yes. But you're getting a 25 year old top-10 center without giving up much off the current roster (basically a 2-3 center and a decent 2nd line winger), so the future pieces are going to be painful to lose.

So I think it's a fair trade. The bigger question is should we do it? If we were an elite center away from contending the next 5 years, then I think you have to bite the bullet and take the risk. However, this team sure looks like it needs a rebuild, and if in that case, getting a player who's 5 years from UFA and giving up a few of our top prospects in the process doesn't make a lot of sense.  Ultimately that's why I don't think the Habs are in serious consideration here: while I love the idea of Eichel-Suzuki down the middle and feel like you can easily build around that, this team may still need a rebuild, and in that case I just don't think a deal that involves giving up a lot of future pieces makes much sense, but we're not getting Eichel by giving up spare parts from the 3rd worst team in the league either, so I don't think there's a good match.

I've never been a fan of giving multiple players for one player, I understand that sometimes that's what you have to do. However I wouldn't give that much for Eichel, we had Patches who put up better numbers and traded him away, Gallagher put up good numbers, Toffolli decent numbers, Anderson a power forward and Eichel's health a huge question mark with a huge contract. One player is not going to fix this team and giving up 5 players isn't going to help, so it's a hard pass on Eichel for me. Jack Eichel Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

[jennifer_rocket]

Looks like Eichel is gonna be a Golden Knight. Early report says Tuch, Krebs, 2022 1st rounder (top-10 protected), and 2023 3rd rounder heading to Buffalo. I feel like Vegas won this trade. The cost is certainly lower than I thought Buffalo would want.

[electron58]

36 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Looks like Eichel is gonna be a Golden Knight. Early report says Tuch, Krebs, 2022 1st rounder (top-10 protected), and 2023 3rd rounder heading to Buffalo. I feel like Vegas won this trade. The cost is certainly lower than I thought Buffalo would want.

Too early to tell, as the team that gets the best player,  usually,  wins the trade. In this case,  there is a lot of potential,  still to be fulfilled,  by Tuch, Krebs & the 2022 first round pick. Ofcourse,  if nobody pans out for the Sabres, then,  well......

Then again, Eichel may never play again.  It's a Vegas gamble. How ironic. 

[jennifer_rocket]

4 minutes ago, electron58 said:

Too early to tell, as the team that gets the best player,  usually,  wins the trade. In this case,  there is a lot of potential,  still to be fulfilled,  by Tuch, Krebs & the 2022 first round pick. Ofcourse,  if nobody pans out for the Sabres, then,  well......

Then again, Eichel may never play again.  It's a Vegas gamble. How ironic. 

I'm trying to think of what might've been an equivalent package from Montreal. A lottery protected 1st rounder (2023), a 3rd rounder (2022), Josh Anderson, and Jesse Ylonen?

[maas_art]

41 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Looks like Eichel is gonna be a Golden Knight. Early report says Tuch, Krebs, 2022 1st rounder (top-10 protected), and 2023 3rd rounder heading to Buffalo. I feel like Vegas won this trade. The cost is certainly lower than I thought Buffalo would want.

Really depends how (and if) Eichel ever comes back.  If he ends up the player he was pre-injury, they win by a landslide.  If this is an injury that nags at him for the duration of his contract, then I think Bafalo got a good return. 

[maas_art]

Just now, jennifer_rocket said:

I'm trying to think of what might've been an equivalent package from Montreal. A lottery protected 1st rounder (2023), a 3rd rounder (2022), Josh Anderson, and Jesse Ylonen?

Probably pretty close. I think the Sabres wanted a 1st in this year's draft though.

Really makes you wonder if something in Eichel's medical history (I know Barfalo wasnt giving out a lot of info but there's probably enough there to go on) scared off a lot of teams. 

[HabsAlways]

14 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Rumors suggest Eichel drawing serious interest from Vegas but also now Calgary. Kevin Weekes and others have reported that Calgary has offered Matthew Tkachuk (or the option of taking Sean Monahan instead), a 1st rounder, a recent 1st round prospect, and two other prospects as the offer to Buffalo.

So let's try to put that offer into a Habs offer as close as we can generate... IMO the closest player we have to Tkachuk is Anderson. So we move to a question of whether we might give up a package like this for Eichel:

 

- Josh Anderson

- Kaiden Guhle

- Jordan Harris

- Ryan Poehling

- 2023 1st round pick (top 5 protected)

 

My problem with this is that the Sabres are sellers in this case and not in the drivers seat.   This is far too much in my opinion

Eichel had 2g in 21gp before getting injured and has averaged less than a PPG in the league, I'd expect him to have done so by now... that's not an "elite" center, nor is his injury status such that I'm comfortable with his full recovery.

Vegas got him in the end for a Tuch (a RW), an unproven prospect (Krebs, 17th overall)  and two picks ... I feel we could have gotten him with just Anderson and Poehling maybe

[HabsAlways]

1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Looks like Eichel is gonna be a Golden Knight. Early report says Tuch, Krebs, 2022 1st rounder (top-10 protected), and 2023 3rd rounder heading to Buffalo. I feel like Vegas won this trade. The cost is certainly lower than I thought Buffalo would want.

I actually think Sabres won in the end.   Two good prospects for Eichel.    Eichel is seriously over rated in my opinion and a locker room cancer.

[claremont]

53 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

I actually think Sabres won in the end.   Two good prospects for Eichel.    Eichel is seriously over rated in my opinion and a locker room cancer.

I believe Sabres won the trade too - not so much as a locker room cancer because we don't know what he was like with his teammates but he certainly was a management headache. Tuch is a solid roster player 20 goal 50 points and young with speed. Krebs (17th overall), a smallish in height centre with some upside and a mid-level future draft pick, for a "potential" return from a serious injury Eichel.

This is the type of trade that a GM makes when a team is close to going for it, which Vegas when healthy certainly is a contender. Vegas will be in cap hell next year so something will have to give but they must believe with a prorated cap of injured players, that Eichel can push them over the top for this year's playoffs? Vegas IMO has mortgaged their future for that chance to win now. The Habs as presently constructed are not that close IMO to being that top level contender. MB is wise at this point not to make this type of trade. I realize Price's window is closing but we would be dealing from a position of desperation to get a high level player and "hope" that Eichel can recover from the serious injury. Secondly Vegas is likely going to make the playoffs quite easily and benefit from Eichel in the latter part of the season. The Habs need someone now that can help them get to the playoffs - Eichel won't do that. 

[Graeme-1]

Okay ignore everything I said above, I'm shocked how relatively low Eichel's price was for Vegas (especially with Calgary's apparently offering Tkachuk), I wonder if the doctors think there's a non-trivial chance he never plays again, isn't the same player, or struggles with injuries going forward?  Or just Buffalo was getting desperate combined with Eichel pushing for Vegas?

[habsisme]

8 minutes ago, Graeme-1 said:

Okay ignore everything I said above, I'm shocked how relatively low Eichel's price was for Vegas (especially with Calgary's apparently offering Tkachuk), I wonder if the doctors think there's a non-trivial chance he never plays again, isn't the same player, or struggles with injuries going forward?  Or just Buffalo was getting desperate combined with Eichel pushing for Vegas?

I'm surprised too. This was not the return I was expecting. I would make this deal every day if I'm vegas. And I disagree that it's only a win now move. Eichel is a franchise player you need for your future too. I'm thinking a lot of teams felt like Buffalo did and thought the surgery was too risky

[maas_art]

6 minutes ago, Graeme-1 said:

Okay ignore everything I said above, I'm shocked how relatively low Eichel's price was for Vegas (especially with Calgary's apparently offering Tkachuk), I wonder if the doctors think there's a non-trivial chance he never plays again, isn't the same player, or struggles with injuries going forward?  Or just Buffalo was getting desperate combined with Eichel pushing for Vegas?

This (the bolded part) is my guess. Especially the "struggles with injuries" part.   Even the most dominant player, if they are plagued with injuries, are hard to plan a team around.  Remember Lemieux's last few years (and Eichel, while great, is no Lemieux) - he would come back for 3 games, score 11 points and then be hurt for 2 weeks. Then 4 games on, 15 more points, then injured for 10 more.  Its amazing when he's in your lineup but if its chronic, it becomes very problematic.

That said, I do think we could have gotten him and could have done so cheaply, but - you have to wonder if the fact that MB is probably not here after this year has a play too.   You trade for Eichel right now, you likely have ended the season.   I mean its highly unlikely we come back this year but there's still a chance.  Take Dvorak or Anderson (or both) off the roster and we're undoubtedly done.  A move for Eichel would be a long-game.  Maybe he's back for the playoffs so a team like Vegas can afford to make the move but we wouldnt be in the playoffs if we made the trade.   That is not a move an exiting GM makes, thats one who is here for the long haul does.