2021-22 Rumours

[claremont]

Panthers shopping the soon to be 23 RW and RFA firmer 1st rounder Owen Tippett possibly as a trade piece for Ben Chiarot. With the queue we have at RW - Anderson, Gallagher, Caufield, Armia, Ylonen, you would have to think one of them gets moved out, or moved to the other side before we would take that deal. Personally I’m hoping for something more than that. 
Tippett for Chychrun would think Arizona would want more than that and panthers tight to the cap. Tippett to Dallas for Klingberg is more likely. 

[campabee82]

14 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

Just out of interest who replaces him? really?EDIT Who replaces the minutes he plays? I agree he is playing very poorly right now but he was a stud most of last season and in the playoffs he played hurt. that does not just go away the situation around him fell apart though! No Webber no Eddy no top tier defensive center to take faceoffs in our zone. Petry is and always has been an offensive Dman to ask him to fill the role of team leader and defensive Dman and keep producing is insane! and with a coach who is in over his head and no clear plan it is just a recipe for this gong show we are seeing. A new coach and getting a partner that compliments what he brings would make Petry and anyone who could replace him look a lot better!

Exactly, players don't just forget how to play hockey overa short offseason!

[habs1952]

14 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

Just out of interest who replaces him? really? EDIT Who replaces the minutes he plays? I agree he is playing very poorly right now but he was a stud most of last season and in the playoffs he played hurt. that does not just go away the situation around him fell apart though! No Webber no Eddy no top tier defensive center to take faceoffs in our zone. Petry is and always has been an offensive Dman to ask him to fill the role of team leader and defensive Dman and keep producing is insane! and with a coach who is in over his head and no clear plan it is just a recipe for this gong show we are seeing. A new coach and getting a partner that compliments what he brings would make Petry and anyone who could replace him look a lot better!

[Paul Martin]

8 hours ago, habs1952 said:

 

8 hours ago, habs1952 said:

 

9 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Exactly, players don't just forget how to play hockey overa short offseason!

      The way Petry is playing now just about anyone would be better.  I would rather see Ouellet on the ice than Petry,  At least you will get an honest effort. Petry wants out and it is obvious,   Now it is all about youth and rebuilding a positive environment.  Having a highly paid disgruntled veteran around poisoning the room can only hurt.  Get rid of him and use his big Cap hit in a more productive way.

[Paul Martin]

1 hour ago, Paul Martin said:

 

 

      The way Petry is playing now just about anyone would be better.  I would rather see Ouellet on the ice than Petry,  At least you will get an honest effort. Petry wants out and it is obvious,   Now it is all about youth and rebuilding a positive environment.  Having a highly paid disgruntled veteran around poisoning the room can only hurt.  Get rid of him and use his big Cap hit in a more productive way.

This would be my plan for this  year :

Keepers ;  Gallagher, Chariot ( if he will sign extension ) , Anderson,Byron,Caufield,Evans,Dvorak,Lekhonen,Suzuki,Toffoli,Poehling,Pazetta,Edmunston,Romanov,, Allen

Take em or Leave  em depending on offers :  Droun, Price,Savard,Hoffman,Wideman,Pitlick,Clague,Kulak

Gotta go :  Petry, Chariot ( if  no extension ) ,Paquette,Perreault, Montenbeault

Retain no salary beyond this  year..  Deal no draft picks or prospects unless better prospects coming back.

 

 

[Paul Martin]

10 minutes ago, Paul Martin said:

This would be my plan for this  year :

Keepers ;  Gallagher, Chariot ( if he will sign extension ) , Anderson,Byron,Caufield,Evans,Dvorak,Lekhonen,Suzuki,Toffoli,Poehling,Pazetta,Edmunston,Romanov,, Allen

Take em or Leave  em depending on offers :  Droun, Price,Savard,Hoffman,Wideman,Pitlick,Clague,Kulak

Gotta go :  Petry, Chariot ( if  no extension ) ,Paquette,Perreault, Montenbeault

Retain no salary beyond this  year..  Deal no draft picks or prospects unless better prospects coming back.

 

 

Add Armia to Take em or Leave em.

[campabee82]

1 hour ago, Paul Martin said:

This would be my plan for this  year :

Keepers ;  Gallagher, Chariot ( if he will sign extension ) , Anderson,Byron,Caufield,Evans,Dvorak,Lekhonen,Suzuki,Toffoli,Poehling,Pazetta,Edmunston,Romanov,, Allen

Take em or Leave  em depending on offers :  Droun, Price,Savard,Hoffman,Wideman,Pitlick,Clague,Kulak

Gotta go :  Petry, Chariot ( if  no extension ) ,Paquette,Perreault, Montenbeault

Retain no salary beyond this  year..  Deal no draft picks or prospects unless better prospects coming back.

 

 

Really you want to keep Dvorak but say Petry shows no effort! How ridiculous are you? Dvorak never looks like he wants to be on the ice, he is always disengaged and you never even see him talking to the players on the bench. If anyone is "poisoning" the locker room because of lack of effort it is him.

[BigTed3]

1 hour ago, Paul Martin said:

This would be my plan for this  year :

Keepers ;  Gallagher, Chariot ( if he will sign extension ) , Anderson,Byron,Caufield,Evans,Dvorak,Lekhonen,Suzuki,Toffoli,Poehling,Pazetta,Edmunston,Romanov,, Allen

Take em or Leave  em depending on offers :  Droun, Price,Savard,Hoffman,Wideman,Pitlick,Clague,Kulak

Gotta go :  Petry, Chariot ( if  no extension ) ,Paquette,Perreault, Montenbeault

Retain no salary beyond this  year..  Deal no draft picks or prospects unless better prospects coming back.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Paul Martin said:

Add Armia to Take em or Leave em.

To me, keepers would be guys who have great value to our team or whose value is low right now and where you expect it to increase going forward (ie if I hold onto them a bit longer, I can likely get more in a trade at a later timepoint). People who have to go now are ones where we're on a deadline, likely because they're upcoming UFAs. The "Take em or Leave Em" category would be guys who have no inherent value now and are unlikely to see this low value rise over time. So with that in mind, if I were to separate them into 4 categories based on what you've described:

- Keepers: Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Ylonen, Anderson, Evans, Norlinder, Guhle, Toffoli, Poehling, Primeau, RHP, Pezzetta (all guys who have value to us now and are expected to stay relevant or improve over time into our next Cup window)

- Keepers for now: Petry, Price, Armia, Edmundson, Dvorak, Byron (all guys whom I would trade in the right circumstances but where their value is way down right now and where i expect it to improve in the future. We're not in a hurry to have to trade any of these guys, as they're all under contract, so we may as well wait to get the right deal for us)

- Trade now if you can: Chiarot (zero reason to sign him to an extension, he's already 30 and doesn't fit our next window to win), Gallagher (still has value IMO, so trade before that drops), Kulak, Perreault, Lehkonen, Drouin, Pitlick, Hoffman, Wideman, Niku, Allen

- Guys with little to no value: Paquette, Savard, Clague, Montembeault

 

[Paul Martin]

26 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Really you want to keep Dvorak but say Petry shows no effort! EDIT? Dvorak never looks like he wants to be on the ice, he is always disengaged and you never even see him talking to the players on the bench. If anyone is "poisoning" the locker room because of lack of effort it is him.

Petry is 34 and wants out.  Dvorak is 26 and does not.  Really though  Dvorak is border line take him or leave em.

[campabee82]

18 minutes ago, Paul Martin said:

Petry is 34 and wants out.  Dvorak is 26 and does not.  Really though  Dvorak is border line take him or leave em.

EDIT Petry wants to be close to his family, he does not want out of Montreal. There is a difference between not wanting to be on a team and wanting to be close to your family. Petry and his family LOVE the city of Montreal, the team and the fans (with the exception of course of trolls like the one on twitter EDIT). He doesn't want off the team he wants to be close to his family, who wouldn't! 

[H_T_L]

Reminder about personal comments guys. Debate the content only.

[habs1952]

3 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Really you want to keep Dvorak but say Petry shows no effort! How ridiculous are you? Dvorak never looks like he wants to be on the ice, he is always disengaged and you never even see him talking to the players on the bench. If anyone is "poisoning" the locker room because of lack of effort it is him.

It's almost as if Bergevin had a hissy fit when he knew his days were numbered and made the Dvorak trade just to spite the Habs.

[campabee82]

17 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

It's almost as if Bergevin had a hissy fit when he knew his days were numbered and made the Dvorak trade just to spite the Habs.

Almost LOL

[Paul Martin]

11 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

It's almost as if Bergevin had a hissy fit when he knew his days were numbered and made the Dvorak trade just to spite the Habs.

The Jury is still out on Dvorak.  He is only 26 and has been a relatively productive center to this point in his career ( 74 G's , 88  A's 162 Points in 336 games ). Has decent size and is good on draws  52%. . May have limited upside  but could be a good in a 2/3 spot.  I would give him more time unless some team offers something similar to what we Traded from Carolina to get him .. 

To his credit  Bergeron did not empty the cupboards when things were going bad.  I think the new regime is starting out with better than average depth in the system and more than all of the teams potential draft choices.

 

[BigTed3]

Well let's ask this question then: if you could trade Dvorak today for a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder, would you? I would.

Would you take back Kotkaniemi for a 1st and a 3rd? I would do that too.

[booboo_mtl]

3 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Well let's ask this question then: if you could trade Dvorak today for a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder, would you? I would.

Would you take back Kotkaniemi for a 1st and a 3rd? I would do that too.

Not really a fair question as we're in a much different position now then we were when the trade was made. 

And no I wouldn't take KK back

 

[habsisme]

3 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Well let's ask this question then: if you could trade Dvorak today for a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder, would you? I would.

Would you take back Kotkaniemi for a 1st and a 3rd? I would do that too.

Dvorak has disapointed but I'm not sure I would trade him. He's still a solid C at a very reasonable price who could help us in the future. 

As for KK I may change my mind if he keeps playing as well as he has, but 6 million is just too much. And I'm not one of those people who just assumes he'll take a lower long-trm contract, as in, how much lower? So he's either gotta earn a 5 AAV over 6 to 8 years OR its gonna be a big issue for the hurricanes. The thing is if he keeps playing the way he has he might very well get there but my money is that he continues to be inconsistent

[BigTed3]

Just now, booboo_mtl said:

Not really a fair question as we're in a much different position now then we were when the trade was made. 

And no I wouldn't take KK back

 

Well I'm asking it now and you can use whatever hindsight you like. FWIW, when the deals were made, I also said then that I would have kept JK at 6M and even losing JK, that I would not have given up as much as we did for a middle-6 center like Dvorak. So my opinion actually hasn't changed having seen the first half-season of how it played out, I'm just curious of whether anyone else has altered their view of things thus far. I get that things can turn very quickly. I also didn't like the Galchenyuk-Domi trade much and it worked out to some degree, albeit because of Anderson and less so because of Domi, whose selfishness on the ice with bad penalties was a problem for me. I didn't like the Weber-Subban trade and still dislike it. I didn't mind the rationale behind Sergachev-Drouin but thought there needed to be a follow-up trade for another LHD to make it a good deal and that never happened, so that made me dislike it more over time. And I liked the Pacioretty trade and that worked out better than could have imagined for both teams over time. Sometimes first impressions of deals hold, sometimes they change. In this case, I didn't like the sequence of moves involving JK and Dvorak and I still don't. Time will tell if that holds up.

[campabee82]

8 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Well I'm asking it now and you can use whatever hindsight you like. FWIW, when the deals were made, I also said then that I would have kept JK at 6M and even losing JK, that I would not have given up as much as we did for a middle-6 center like Dvorak. So my opinion actually hasn't changed having seen the first half-season of how it played out, I'm just curious of whether anyone else has altered their view of things thus far. I get that things can turn very quickly. I also didn't like the Galchenyuk-Domi trade much and it worked out to some degree, albeit because of Anderson and less so because of Domi, whose selfishness on the ice with bad penalties was a problem for me. I didn't like the Weber-Subban trade and still dislike it. I didn't mind the rationale behind Sergachev-Drouin but thought there needed to be a follow-up trade for another LHD to make it a good deal and that never happened, so that made me dislike it more over time. And I liked the Pacioretty trade and that worked out better than could have imagined for both teams over time. Sometimes first impressions of deals hold, sometimes they change. In this case, I didn't like the sequence of moves involving JK and Dvorak and I still don't. Time will tell if that holds up.

I agreed then and still agree now with both of your opinions on Dvorak and Kotkaniemi. There was considerable evidence that KK was going to keep progressing and that Dvorak was never going to be anything more than what he already was. FWIW I would love to have both Dvorak and KK but if I had to choose one I would go with KK simply because we need the offense and Poehling and Evans have been good as the 3\4 centers

[Regis22]

16 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Dvorak has disapointed but I'm not sure I would trade him. He's still a solid C at a very reasonable price who could help us in the future. 

Everyone has disappointed this year. The dislike  for Dvorak is amazing and why because he apparently replaced some people's favorite under performing player so we resort to making things up like "poison"  in the locker room ( when none of us are there ) , disengaged, not talking to players on the bench  . 

 

 

 

[Regis22]

6 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

 There was considerable evidence that KK was going to keep progressing and that Dvorak was never going to be anything more than what he already was.s

And what evidence was that 

[Paul Martin]

2 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

And what evidence was that 

The problem I always had with KK was that he was just not quick enough.  Uses a really long stick and with his  long arms made him relatively easy to defend against. Also it takes him forever to get his shot away.  Catch and release style doesn;t work well in todays high paced game. Probably not a Center either. The guy is definitely a project and at over 6 million not good value.

[BigTed3]

27 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Everyone has disappointed this year. The dislike  for Dvorak is amazing and why because he apparently replaced some people's favorite under performing player so we resort to making things up like "poison"  in the locker room ( when none of us are there ) , disengaged, not talking to players on the bench  . 

 

 

 

Everyone has disappointed, you're right. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Dvorak doesn't act like he enjoys playing hockey. He doesn't smile when he scores, he doesn't engage much with teammates on the ice, and he hasn't been very good on top of that. Multiple members of the media have commented on the fact he doesn't seem to be happy or engaged, so this isn't just one person's opinion.

As for the rest, I'll repeat now what I said at the time of the trade:

- Dvorak with the Coyotes was likely going to be the Dvorak we got: a decent middle 6 center but who was probably near the top end of his potential already given his age and the fact he was already getting huge minutes in Arizona. It wasn't likely we were going to be able to give him more opportunity than he was already getting, so we'd had to have hoped he really just gelled with new linemates as a spark, and that hasn't happened yet.

- Dvorak's possession numbers were crap. He was a bad possession player on a bad possession team AND his numbers relative to his own teammates were bad. It suggested he wasn't going to be a guy driving the play no matter where he played.

- Kotkaniemi had outstanding possession numbers here and it suggested he would eventually find more success than he had to date. There was also more opportunity for him to grow production-wise is his ice time increased and linemates improved. He's still getting low minutes in Carolina, so hard to know what his full potential might be, but there was simply more room for growth there.

- People got caught up on the 6M, which was an exaggerated one-year salary in order to force the success of the offersheet. It was not a 7-year deal for 6M where you had to project whether it was worth it down the line and it was not 6M for a declining 33 year-old player. There was no commitment past this season, so it was not a high-risk move. We handed out money freely to the likes of Savard, Hoffman, Alzner, Edmundson, Chiarot, Gallagher, Petry, Price, etc. and frankly with the term of those contracts, the age at which they signed them, and the direction of some of their advanced metrics at the time of signing, they were all far riskier contracts than what Carolina gave Kotkaniemi. The 6M deal we gave Radulov for one year would be more in line with degree of risk for the JK contract. Maybe it ends up being too much, but it's a one-year deal with a chance of upside if you give the guy opportunity to play in the top 6.

So all that together, and with the expectation Carolina would have a late first rounder, we gave up Kotkaniemi for a pick that has a 50% chance of being an NHLer and a 3rd rounder (maybe 10% chance of ever being an NHLer). And then we turned around and traded a 1st to Arizona that had higher odds of being a pick in the 10-20 range than the one we got AND a 2nd rounder for Dvorak. We got the guy with less potential, less good advanced metrics, and older age and gave up more collateral. Bad move then, still has the appearance of a bad move now.

[Regis22]

I didn't care for him either way .  He has  20 points in 42 games playing on a very good hockey club . The guy we like to hate has 16 pts in 34 games playing on the worst hockey team in the league . Pro rate those numbers. then do what you have to to skew them in your favor

Josh Anderson has the same stats I don't see people ripping him .

Dvorak is according to many a good solid hockey player 

Maybe in 3 4 years we'll  regret it if the guy in Carolina turns in to Mcdavid but its done . 

[Regis22]

5 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Everyone has disappointed, you're right. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Dvorak doesn't act like he enjoys playing hockey. He doesn't smile when he scores, he doesn't engage much with teammates on the ice, and he hasn't been very good on top of that. Multiple members of the media have commented on the fact he doesn't seem to be happy or engaged, so this isn't just one person's opinion.

 

That is who he is 

https://thehockeywriters.com/canadiens-dvorak-get-to-know/

It’s more of the same on the ice. His goal celebrations are subdued, and he approaches every game with a workman-like attitude, similar to Patrice Bergeron, the player he models his game after.  

“The one thing about him that people probably don’t know is he’s a very competitive, quiet sort of leadership guy. He doesn’t get a lot of credit for that because he’s quiet, but he’s very competitive. He’s not going to play necessarily with tons of physicality, but he’s got a lot of jam, and he’ll go to the net, and he’ll take a punch in front of the net if he has to,” a Western-based scout told Sportsnet reporter Eric Engels.