Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

2021-22 Rumours


H_T_L
 Share

Recommended Posts

53 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I think we'd be giving up too much here. Why?

- The value for Dvorak was recently established as being a 1st and a 2nd, as per our trade with Arizona. Most pundits don't seem to think his value dropped all that much over the past year and there were rumors a lot of Western conference teams thought he could get back to form. He had one down year, possibly explained by bad coaching, and he has one less year left on his contract. So less commitment and long-term risk.

- The value for Dach was almost set by our Kotkaniemi offersheet. A 1st and a 3rd. Dach is also a recent 3rd overall pick who has played well for stretches but struggled a bit to progress on schedule overall. Sounds familiar?

So if I were to substitute those values into your deal, it would be like giving up two 1st's and a 2nd for a 1st and two 3rd's. Now maybe that seems a bit backwards, because to me, Dach has more value than Dvorak, but saying it out loud just makes you realize how bad a trade-off MB made in swapping Kotkaniemi for Dvorak. Nevertheless, that's what the market has kind of set. I'd be find trading Calgary's 1st and a 3rd rounder for Dach and then making a separate deal to offload Dvorak if Chicago isn't interested in that price. I think teams like Minnesota, Dallas, Vancouver, Winnipeg, or Anaheim could all potentially have interest.

Dach is far more valuable because he doesn't have a 6 million dollar price tag. And Dvorak has to have dropped a little. 

Dvorak and a 1st seems seems like a bit of an overpayment for Dach (but I don't know the player well enough, if the comparable it KK, who shouldn't have been 3rd overall then I'm not so high on getting him). I'm more interested on if we could get him without giving up futures. Like maybe trading a guy like Petry with some salary retained straight up for Dach. I don't NEED to trade Dvorak but we can do that in another move and probably get similar picks to what we gave up to get him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

I think we'd be giving up too much here. Why?

- The value for Dvorak was recently established as being a 1st and a 2nd, as per our trade with Arizona. Most pundits don't seem to think his value dropped all that much over the past year and there were rumors a lot of Western conference teams thought he could get back to form. He had one down year, possibly explained by bad coaching, and he has one less year left on his contract. So less commitment and long-term risk.

- The value for Dach was almost set by our Kotkaniemi offersheet. A 1st and a 3rd. Dach is also a recent 3rd overall pick who has played well for stretches but struggled a bit to progress on schedule overall. Sounds familiar?

So if I were to substitute those values into your deal, it would be like giving up two 1st's and a 2nd for a 1st and two 3rd's. Now maybe that seems a bit backwards, because to me, Dach has more value than Dvorak, but saying it out loud just makes you realize how bad a trade-off MB made in swapping Kotkaniemi for Dvorak. Nevertheless, that's what the market has kind of set. I'd be find trading Calgary's 1st and a 3rd rounder for Dach and then making a separate deal to offload Dvorak if Chicago isn't interested in that price. I think teams like Minnesota, Dallas, Vancouver, Winnipeg, or Anaheim could all potentially have interest.

Obviously I like your deal better - and i think the reasoning is sound (originally I thought maybe we could get Chicago's 2nd back) but I dont know if its doable. A separate deal for Dvorak may make sense - or maybe Chicago wants Dvorak (win now) + later pick & forgoes the 1st, not sure.

Anyway, I just feel like Dach's value is too high & while I agree with your thought process about JK, I think the offer-sheet really skewed that whole situation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, habsisme said:

Dach is far more valuable because he doesn't have a 6 million dollar price tag. And Dvorak has to have dropped a little. 

Dvorak and a 1st seems seems like a bit of an overpayment for Dach (but I don't know the player well enough, if the comparable it KK, who shouldn't have been 3rd overall then I'm not so high on getting him). I'm more interested on if we could get him without giving up futures. Like maybe trading a guy like Petry with some salary retained straight up for Dach. I don't NEED to trade Dvorak but we can do that in another move and probably get similar picks to what we gave up to get him. 

 

4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Obviously I like your deal better - and i think the reasoning is sound (originally I thought maybe we could get Chicago's 2nd back) but I dont know if its doable. A separate deal for Dvorak may make sense - or maybe Chicago wants Dvorak (win now) + later pick & forgoes the 1st, not sure.

Anyway, I just feel like Dach's value is too high & while I agree with your thought process about JK, I think the offer-sheet really skewed that whole situation. 

Well if we wanted to go that route, we could just offersheet Dach (assuming he accepts being offersheeted). You can go up to 6.3M and give up a 1st and a 3rd. The problem with that route for us is that we really don't want to give up our 2023 1st in a year where we have good odds of ending up in the lottery for Bedard and company, so I highly doubt that happens. In fact, I wonder if Bedard being there stops a lot of teams from even considering an offersheet this coming summer. That said, if I was going to offersheet anyone this summer, Josh Norris as a center is probably as good a choice as anyone. You could offer 8.4M, still only give up a 1st/2nd/3rd and put cap-strapped Ottawa in a tough spot.

As for Dvorak, I don't have any particular attachment to him. Is he the biggest problem on this roster? No. But don't see a need to pay him when we're not really contenders and in 2-3 years, I'd hope we'd be running something like Suzuki-Wright-Evans down the middle for example and not need Dvorak when we can use Evans as a 3C for cheaper. If Dvorak can bring in a decent return now, then may as well trade him. If he has poor value and you don't get your price, you hang onto him and I'm sure we can get a 1st rounder plus for him in two years.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Rumours that Mark Recchi in line for assistant coach ( to run the PP ) 

and 

Christian Dvorak is being shopped around 

Not a fan of Mark Recchi.  If we move Christian Dvorak, I'm expecting a center coming back from elsewhere. My preference = Pierre-Luc Dubois. Of course, we'd have to add. But, we'd be getting our center & a potential top pairing RD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, maas_art said:

 

Dach is an interesting prospect. He's underperformed so far but has had injury troubles so some of that could just be development time.  The suggestion of our other 1st (Calgary's) is interest.  
Dvorak is young enough you might actually be able to package them & do something like:

Dvorak + Calgary's 1st for Dach + 3rd

I normally wouldn't have interest in moving our second 1st but Dach is a player id be quite interested in. 

Too much! We're taking the risk, and if  Chicago is in fact in win now mode, as habsisme indicated earlier, they may be interested in wingers.. Otherwise, I'd just give them Calgary's 2022 first for Kirby Dach. Also, otherwise, as expressed elsewhere, we take a flyer on one of the Russians. Especially, if we've acquired another center from elsewhere. (PLD?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a reason that Dach's name is coming up in the rumors? I see he was a third overall pick who hasn't exploded onto the NHL scene yet. But... he is also still quite young. Feels like an asset Chicago would want to hang on to. And it sounds risky for another team to pay a ton for him, hoping he will pan out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Is there a reason that Dach's name is coming up in the rumors? I see he was a third overall pick who hasn't exploded onto the NHL scene yet. But... he is also still quite young. Feels like an asset Chicago would want to hang on to. And it sounds risky for another team to pay a ton for him, hoping he will pan out.

Not sure how substantiated those rumors are but I think they go back to those two articles:

https://montrealhockeynow.com/2022/05/23/nhl-trade-should-canadiens-target-kirby-dach-on-nhl-trade-market/

https://awinninghabit.com/2022/05/23/rumor-canadiens-dvorak/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Is there a reason that Dach's name is coming up in the rumors? I see he was a third overall pick who hasn't exploded onto the NHL scene yet. But... he is also still quite young. Feels like an asset Chicago would want to hang on to. And it sounds risky for another team to pay a ton for him, hoping he will pan out.

its more musings from serious people than they are rumors. Chicago appears to be in win-now mode (for some reason they are). I think Dach is only available at a high price BUT that high price migh be coming from roster players  and not really futures

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, habsisme said:

its more musings from serious people than they are rumors. Chicago appears to be in win-now mode (for some reason they are). I think Dach is only available at a high price BUT that high price migh be coming from roster players  and not really futures

Chicago actually has reason to be in win now mode. Toews and Kane have both said they want to stay with the team and not be traded. So for a rebuild their top assets aren't really available. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/24/2022 at 12:41 PM, Regis22 said:

Plan on tanking again ....lol

Given the question marks on D, the question marks in net ... and the overall lack of depth, this team is not doing much more than squeaking into a wild card spot at best.   So might as well tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Given the question marks on D, the question marks in net ... and the overall lack of depth, this team is not doing much more than squeaking into a wild card spot at best.   So might as well tank.

Yeah. I don't think we'll even have a shot at squeaking into a wild card spot.

I think we're the worst or second worst team in the division. Hard to say what will happen with Boston if Bergeron moves on, but... assuming he remains in Boston, we're not better than the Bruins.

Maybe we're better than Detroit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Given the question marks on D, the question marks in net ... and the overall lack of depth, this team is not doing much more than squeaking into a wild card spot at best.   So might as well tank.

Probably.  But, HUGO did say they want to ice a competitive team. What does that mean? Gotta believe they have a plan. Will they be able to execute it? I'm hoping yes. I guess we'll have to wait and see,  but I really believe that they will be proactive.  Not careless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, electron58 said:

Probably.  But, HUGO did say they want to ice a competitive team. What does that mean? Gotta believe they have a plan. Will they be able to execute it? I'm hoping yes. I guess we'll have to wait and see,  but I really believe that they will be proactive.  Not careless.

He likely meant a competitive team as in :  A team that at least is trying to win, that keeps the games close and interesting etc.    And did NOT mean a team that's going to compete for the cup.    We have far too many holes in our lineup to fix that this summer

Likely our window now that Weber and Price are done, is 2-3 years from now.   At that point Suzuki, Caufield are the cornerstones and other key prospects are now matured and/or in their prime.   Wright has established himself.   And whomever else we take this year.    Then knowing who we have and what we need, its a far easier task to fill the holes with trades/free agency.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

He likely meant a competitive team as in :  A team that at least is trying to win, that keeps the games close and interesting etc.    And did NOT mean a team that's going to compete for the cup.    We have far too many holes in our lineup to fix that this summer

Likely our window now that Weber and Price are done, is 2-3 years from now.   At that point Suzuki, Caufield are the cornerstones and other key prospects are now matured and/or in their prime.   Wright has established himself.   And whomever else we take this year.    Then knowing who we have and what we need, its a far easier task to fill the holes with trades/free agency.

Yeah, competitive could mean anything. It could mean a team that goes out and gets 30 wins instead of 22.

Unless we see BIG changes, the team will not be competitive in the truest sense of "As good as or better than others of a comparable nature." We aren't that team and we aren't going to be that team in 2022-23.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

This isn't a rumor, but I guess it's related to rumors around Jeff Petry. What does everyone actually think Petry is worth? A second rounder? A prospect? I'm not sure if there have been any recent rumors around a possible trade, but I assume that will heat up as the draft approaches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

This isn't a rumor, but I guess it's related to rumors around Jeff Petry. What does everyone actually think Petry is worth? A second rounder? A prospect? I'm not sure if there have been any recent rumors around a possible trade, but I assume that will heat up as the draft approaches.

its so hard to judge. His play was up and down this season. I might take as little as a second round pick if getting him out is that important. But ideally I want 2 pieces for Petry, 2 of a pick, a prospect and a roster player. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, habsisme said:

its so hard to judge. His play was up and down this season. I might take as little as a second round pick if getting him out is that important. But ideally I want 2 pieces for Petry, 2 of a pick, a prospect and a roster player. 

I'd settle for a couple of picks. But one of those would absolutely have to be at least a 2nd rounder in 2023. Something like a 2nd and 4th.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

This isn't a rumor, but I guess it's related to rumors around Jeff Petry. What does everyone actually think Petry is worth? A second rounder? A prospect? I'm not sure if there have been any recent rumors around a possible trade, but I assume that will heat up as the draft approaches.

i think you're severely undervaluing Petry. 

His resurgence under MSL was enough to get him back to a 33 point (prorated) season whcih is not far off his 40-45 point average over the prior 4 years.  He's still a top pairing guy on many teams in the league and a top 4 pretty much everywehre.  His contract is reasonable, the only concern would be term.

I think you could still get the pick/prospect/roster player return that has become standard for many vet trades - like we got for pacioretty - but posibly with less high end prospects and/or less important positions. So maybe you get a 2nd a middle tier roster player and a wing prospect rather than a centre or a dman. 

The biggest issue is that a lot of teams are in some cap issues so i think it might be tough finding a trading partner due to money, not interest in petry. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

This isn't a rumor, but I guess it's related to rumors around Jeff Petry. What does everyone actually think Petry is worth? A second rounder? A prospect? I'm not sure if there have been any recent rumors around a possible trade, but I assume that will heat up as the draft approaches.

Petry has more value than people give him credit for, IMO it would take at the very least a mid to late 1st to peak HuGo's interest. He is a top 4 RHD, even with his "down year" he still managed to finish the year at 36th over all in RD scoring (or as a top 5 2nd pairing defenseman) and basically all those points came after the coaching change, so less than 36 games remaining. Also if you want a better perspective of just how good he is, over the last 4 years he sits 10th in league scoring among his peers (RHD). Sure this could have been his decline (and would have been considered to be) but the last 36 games of the season proved to rival GM's that he was still a 0.5 PPG player. In fact it might interest you to know that he finished the year at 0.40 PPG (39th in the league) which was tied with Drysdale and Pesce. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, maas_art said:

i think you're severely undervaluing Petry. 

His resurgence under MSL was enough to get him back to a 33 point (prorated) season whcih is not far off his 40-45 point average over the prior 4 years.  He's still a top pairing guy on many teams in the league and a top 4 pretty much everywehre.  His contract is reasonable, the only concern would be term.

I think you could still get the pick/prospect/roster player return that has become standard for many vet trades - like we got for pacioretty - but posibly with less high end prospects and/or less important positions. So maybe you get a 2nd a middle tier roster player and a wing prospect rather than a centre or a dman. 

The biggest issue is that a lot of teams are in some cap issues so i think it might be tough finding a trading partner due to money, not interest in petry. 

 

45 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Petry has more value than people give him credit for, IMO it would take at the very least a mid to late 1st to peak HuGo's interest. He is a top 4 RHD, even with his "down year" he still managed to finish the year at 36th over all in RD scoring (or as a top 5 2nd pairing defenseman) and basically all those points came after the coaching change, so less than 36 games remaining. Also if you want a better perspective of just how good he is, over the last 4 years he sits 10th in league scoring among his peers (RHD). Sure this could have been his decline (and would have been considered to be) but the last 36 games of the season proved to rival GM's that he was still a 0.5 PPG player. In fact it might interest you to know that he finished the year at 0.40 PPG (39th in the league) which was tied with Drysdale and Pesce. 

Looks like I am under-valuing Petry based on both of your points. I was unaware that his point totals ended up being quite respectable despite the slow slow start under Ducharme. I do have concerns that his age and poor play under Ducharme will impact his value, but... I suppose Hughes is under no immediate pressure to deal him. He has said that he'll wait for the right deal instead of just trading him to trade him. It'll be an exciting July, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I do have concerns that his age and poor play under Ducharme will impact his value, but... I suppose Hughes is under no immediate pressure to deal him. He has said that he'll wait for the right deal instead of just trading him to trade him. It'll be an exciting July, I think.

The term is the big thing i think.  If he had 1 year left on his deal i think we'd find lots of takers but 3 is a bit tough when he's already 34 (turning 35 in december).  

That said, i dont think 3 years will scare off a team that is just hitting their window to win & has the need for a top RHD. Especially if they could unload a bad 1 or 2 year contract back on us. I dont want to take on bad contracts, but if it meant they gave up a better prospect to do so, id consider it. 

Having said all that, I think there's actually a better than 50% chance Petry stays put.   Unless something weird has happened like Julie (his wife) had a falling out with her business partner Angela (Price's wife) I would think with all the covid restrictions being removed etc, they will be ok coming back to Montreal. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, maas_art said:

The term is the big thing i think.  If he had 1 year left on his deal i think we'd find lots of takers but 3 is a bit tough when he's already 34 (turning 35 in december).  

That said, i dont think 3 years will scare off a team that is just hitting their window to win & has the need for a top RHD. Especially if they could unload a bad 1 or 2 year contract back on us. I dont want to take on bad contracts, but if it meant they gave up a better prospect to do so, id consider it. 

Having said all that, I think there's actually a better than 50% chance Petry stays put.   Unless something weird has happened like Julie (his wife) had a falling out with her business partner Angela (Price's wife) I would think with all the covid restrictions being removed etc, they will be ok coming back to Montreal. 

 

I agree, with this assessment. I will add though that other teams who might have interest are teams like Pittsburgh, Dallas and Philly who only have a year or two remaining in their window but are also trading a RD or losing one to FA so they too could absorb all of Petry's contract and have need for him in the next 1-3 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

The term is the big thing i think.  If he had 1 year left on his deal i think we'd find lots of takers but 3 is a bit tough when he's already 34 (turning 35 in december).  

That said, i dont think 3 years will scare off a team that is just hitting their window to win & has the need for a top RHD. Especially if they could unload a bad 1 or 2 year contract back on us. I dont want to take on bad contracts, but if it meant they gave up a better prospect to do so, id consider it. 

Having said all that, I think there's actually a better than 50% chance Petry stays put.   Unless something weird has happened like Julie (his wife) had a falling out with her business partner Angela (Price's wife) I would think with all the covid restrictions being removed etc, they will be ok coming back to Montreal. 

 

That raises a good point, though. Would we rather Petry be back for next season or would we rather get future assets? I mean, he asked for a trade based on... I guess a few different things. It seems like it was because Ducharme was terrible at coaching and the COVID stuff. And it sounds like some of it was driven by a family discussion. Do we really think keeping someone around who wanted to jump ship because of COVID and a bad coach (who was coaching Petry for less than one year) is a good idea?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

That raises a good point, though. Would we rather Petry be back for next season or would we rather get future assets? I mean, he asked for a trade based on... I guess a few different things. It seems like it was because Ducharme was terrible at coaching and the COVID stuff. And it sounds like some of it was driven by a family discussion. Do we really think keeping someone around who wanted to jump ship because of COVID and a bad coach (who was coaching Petry for less than one year) is a good idea?

I think you have to look at it from Petry's perspective, would you want to be away from your family for months on end and miss so much of their growing up when usually you see them every day or every couple days? The trade request was due to covid restrictions more than anything. He said he wasn't happy with the coaching but had nothing against Ducharme and only spoke out on behalf of teammates who were younger and wouldn't have the same respect in the locker room.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...