Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

Habs Clean house. Bergevin, Timmins, Wilson Terminated


habsisme
 Share

New Contract?  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you feel MB deserves a new contract?

    • Yes,,, he's earned it.
      1
    • Absolutely not,,, he hasn't earned it.
      11
    • Undecided
      1

This poll is closed to new votes


Recommended Posts

Bob Gainey will help Canadiens in search for new GM: report

Owner/president Geoff Molson reaches out to Hall of Famer for help, just as he did in 2012 with Serge Savard before hiring Marc Bergevin.

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/bob-gainey-will-help-canadiens-in-search-for-new-gm-report

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Bob Gainey will help Canadiens in search for new GM: report

Owner/president Geoff Molson reaches out to Hall of Famer for help, just as he did in 2012 with Serge Savard before hiring Marc Bergevin.

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/bob-gainey-will-help-canadiens-in-search-for-new-gm-report

sounds like its more of a PR move I think

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, maas_art said:

Vignault and Therrien fired today in Philly.  Lets hope we're not planning another re-tread. 

I don't think Therrien will get a third try, but let's remember that Gorton was with the Rangers when Vigneault was hired there (although not the GM makign that decision). Ultimately, Gorton was also the person who fired Vigneault though. So the question is whether Gorton liked Vigneault at all and values their history as an asset (and fired him because the team needed a change) or whether he fired him because he didn't think he was a good enough coach in today's NHL. If you look at the numbers, it suggests Vigneault isn't as good a coach as say Claude Julien and while he's better than Therrien and Ducharme, I'm just fed up as a fan of seeing the same guys hired over and over. It really points to the language barrier being a huge problem if you can't find new coaches to fill your staffing needs.

If Bergevin were here, I'd honestly be afraid we'd be hiring Vigneault. With Gorton, I'd like to think he has a better understanding of the modern game and the need to be progressive. If you look at his one hire with the Rangers, he chose David Quinn. Quinn's record with the Rangers wasn't great, albeit the team was clearly rebuilding at the time, so it's hard to know how he would have done with a better roster. But what's interesting to me is that Quinn was a relative unknown. He had been drafted to the NHL but never played in the league and save one year as an assistant with Colorado, he had no NHL experience. He had spent some time in the AHL, but for the most part he was a college coach and he had experience mainly at Boston U (with Gorton also having ties to Boston).

So in that line of thought, looking at current collegiate coaches, two with connections to the Boston area who could be of interest are Greg Carvel and Norm Bazin. Carvel is the coach at UMass right now but has a history of coaching multiple programs, as well as being an assistant with the Ducks and for 6 years with the Sens. He was with each team when they went on a run to the Cup finals, and while he's American, who knows if he picked up any French while living in Ottawa. He's done a pretty stellar job of turning a bad program around there. Bazin is the coach at UMass-Lowell and has likewise done a good job with that program. He has been there for a decade and like Quinn, has essentially been exclusively a college coach. Again, no idea whether he speaks French but he is from Manitoba originally and has a French name, and there is the Metis community in Manitoba whereby he may have learned French as a youngster.

I highly doubt Molson will consider either one, but if we're going to throw out more interesting ideas than Vigneault, Therrien, Carbonneau, and Roy, there are two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't think Therrien will get a third try, but let's remember that Gorton was with the Rangers when Vigneault was hired there (although not the GM makign that decision). Ultimately, Gorton was also the person who fired Vigneault though. So the question is whether Gorton liked Vigneault at all and values their history as an asset (and fired him because the team needed a change) or whether he fired him because he didn't think he was a good enough coach in today's NHL. If you look at the numbers, it suggests Vigneault isn't as good a coach as say Claude Julien and while he's better than Therrien and Ducharme, I'm just fed up as a fan of seeing the same guys hired over and over. It really points to the language barrier being a huge problem if you can't find new coaches to fill your staffing needs.

If Bergevin were here, I'd honestly be afraid we'd be hiring Vigneault. With Gorton, I'd like to think he has a better understanding of the modern game and the need to be progressive. If you look at his one hire with the Rangers, he chose David Quinn. Quinn's record with the Rangers wasn't great, albeit the team was clearly rebuilding at the time, so it's hard to know how he would have done with a better roster. But what's interesting to me is that Quinn was a relative unknown. He had been drafted to the NHL but never played in the league and save one year as an assistant with Colorado, he had no NHL experience. He had spent some time in the AHL, but for the most part he was a college coach and he had experience mainly at Boston U (with Gorton also having ties to Boston).

So in that line of thought, looking at current collegiate coaches, two with connections to the Boston area who could be of interest are Greg Carvel and Norm Bazin. Carvel is the coach at UMass right now but has a history of coaching multiple programs, as well as being an assistant with the Ducks and for 6 years with the Sens. He was with each team when they went on a run to the Cup finals, and while he's American, who knows if he picked up any French while living in Ottawa. He's done a pretty stellar job of turning a bad program around there. Bazin is the coach at UMass-Lowell and has likewise done a good job with that program. He has been there for a decade and like Quinn, has essentially been exclusively a college coach. Again, no idea whether he speaks French but he is from Manitoba originally and has a French name, and there is the Metis community in Manitoba whereby he may have learned French as a youngster.

I highly doubt Molson will consider either one, but if we're going to throw out more interesting ideas than Vigneault, Therrien, Carbonneau, and Roy, there are two.

I hope we don't have other recycle projects of Bob Hartley or Guy Boucher. Curious If Joel Bouchard could be lured back as he recognizes the importance of player development expectations from the farm system. If we currently have a "junior" coach, is a USA college experience coach going to be that much different? I volunteer Pascal Vincent (AHL Manitoba Moose and Columbus BJ and Winnipeg Jets as well as QMJHL experience) or former player Ian Laperriere in the Flyers AHL team head coach and has been an assistant at the NHL level. Either way, it does look like we are taking a significant risk with a new coach when that time comes.

Premier Legault should be worried about a lack of french coaches!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't comment on this before, but I've got to say I'm feeling really good with Gorton steering the ship. A pro-analytic, speed/skill guy who has knows when/how to trigger a rebuild is just what we need: he would have been my first choice so glad we snagged him and glad he was interested (surely an "easier" role would open up for him soon, says something about Gorton that he was willing to sign on in Montreal).  This also very much feels like the end of the previous era, so glad we didn't promote an AGM or similar: best to bring in a fresh perspective.

And while Molson hasn't done a lot to deserve praise, he did well coming up with a way to hire the best candidate while respecting the language requirement. I think this setup will work and was the best path forward.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/6/2021 at 5:14 PM, habsisme said:

sounds like its more of a PR move I think

That could be it. When an owner needs to find a GM, bringing in a hockey guy to lead the search makes some sense, but surely now that Gorton is in charge he can run his own search?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

That could be it. When an owner needs to find a GM, bringing in a hockey guy to lead the search makes some sense, but surely now that Gorton is in charge he can run his own search?

That's what I thought. Too many cooks?.....Ultimately,  Jeff Gorton has to work with this person.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, electron58 said:

That's what I thought. Too many cooks?.....Ultimately,  Jeff Gorton has to work with this person.

Ya that's really the most important thing here. This unique setup is only going to work if it's someone who can collaborate very well with Gorton.  I think the setup can work, but get the wrong personalities and it could easily blow up into a circus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Renaud Lavoie perhaps says it best today with a tweet, stating Panther Assistant GM Paul Krepelka is a hot name and great candidate for any of the GM openings. Lavoie says he expects all teams with openings now or in the future to be interested and want to interview this gentleman, except for Montreal because he doesn't speak French.

Slow clap. Exactly the type of problem with the Habs and Qubec... I don't personally know anything about Krepelka specifically, but Lavoie's tweet basically says everybody in the NHL think this guy could be a great GM and the Habs are the only team to exclude him simply on account of language. So don't tell me that crap like this doesn't give us a competitive disadvantage. It's the organization's choice to play politics over improving the on-ice product.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Losing in French is OK . Losing in english is not 

Exactly.   If we hired an anglophone, all would be fine (sure, some grumbles and politicians pontificating but nothing major)... until we hit a losing streak...  Then, watch out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are at a disadvantage with the language requirement, but I don't think it's simply politics: I get the impression a significant part of the fan base does care about being able to understand their coach & GM.  Does it make sense to care about that over winning? As an English speaker, who am I to say? And generally speaking, nothing wrong with an entertainment business prioritizing what fans care about.

Given Gorton's position, it's unlikely we would attract a top-GM candidate at this point anyways: not enough autonomy.  The "executive VP of hockey operations" loophole is a bit silly on some level, but I'm fine with it since I think it largely got around the issue for GM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Graeme-1 said:

We are at a disadvantage with the language requirement, but I don't think it's simply politics: I get the impression a significant part of the fan base does care about being able to understand their coach & GM.  Does it make sense to care about that over winning? As an English speaker, who am I to say? And generally speaking, nothing wrong with an entertainment business prioritizing what fans care about.

Given Gorton's position, it's unlikely we would attract a top-GM candidate at this point anyways: not enough autonomy.  The "executive VP of hockey operations" loophole is a bit silly on some level, but I'm fine with it since I think it largely got around the issue for GM.

The Habs are an unequal opportunuty employer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Graeme-1 said:

We are at a disadvantage with the language requirement, but I don't think it's simply politics: I get the impression a significant part of the fan base does care about being able to understand their coach & GM.  Does it make sense to care about that over winning? As an English speaker, who am I to say? And generally speaking, nothing wrong with an entertainment business prioritizing what fans care about.

Given Gorton's position, it's unlikely we would attract a top-GM candidate at this point anyways: not enough autonomy.  The "executive VP of hockey operations" loophole is a bit silly on some level, but I'm fine with it since I think it largely got around the issue for GM.

Given that I speak both French and English, I haven't come across not understanding the coach or GM as an issue. But there are examples that are similar... the Habs have had a number of players who played for them in recent years, particularly a number of Russians, who didn't speak passable English. Andrei Kostitsyn spoke no French and minimal English when he arrived. I believe others like Romanov, Markov, etc also needed translators when they first got here. And so their interviews were translated and/or they got screen-captioned on media networks. It didn't make me like those players any more or less and I don't recall complaining that they should be kicked off the team because I couldn't understand the words they were saying without 3rd party help. Similarly, the Habs have had plenty of captains who didn't speak French naturally... Koivu, Gionta, Pacioretty, Weber... those players did interviews as often as the coach and more than the GM. So what's the difference? Why is that allowed? Why wasn't it made mandatory for Danault or Drouin or Marc Andre Bergeron to be made captain?

If we look at international sports, fans here can watch and cheer for a variety of countries' soccer teams in the World Cup or they can support tennis players or golfers who don't speak English or French. I've never heard a single person here in Quebec say they couldn't cheer for Lionel Messi or Rafael Nadal because they don't speak French. If it were really such an issue for you to have to be able to understand someone directly to be able to support them, then as a Quebecer, why not refuse to support Tiger Woods or LeBron James or so on? Or why is it that the Alouettes' head coach has never needed to be a Francophone? Or why was it that Felipe Alou was one of the most-loved managers in Expos' history? No French there either.

Bottom line for me is that if people wanted to, they could get around it. I've never found that an athlete or coach or manager not speaking the same language as me has diminished my ability to support a team/player or enjoy their performance. I think the whole idea of a GM or coach having to be French is something people have had drummed into them by politicians and a few loud-mouthed journalists like Rejean Tremblay, and it's kind of taken on a life of its own. It's a made-up issue and the louder voices have prevailed in making it the focus of our hiring practices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Given that I speak both French and English, I haven't come across not understanding the coach or GM as an issue. But there are examples that are similar... the Habs have had a number of players who played for them in recent years, particularly a number of Russians, who didn't speak passable English. Andrei Kostitsyn spoke no French and minimal English when he arrived. I believe others like Romanov, Markov, etc also needed translators when they first got here. And so their interviews were translated and/or they got screen-captioned on media networks. It didn't make me like those players any more or less and I don't recall complaining that they should be kicked off the team because I couldn't understand the words they were saying without 3rd party help. Similarly, the Habs have had plenty of captains who didn't speak French naturally... Koivu, Gionta, Pacioretty, Weber... those players did interviews as often as the coach and more than the GM. So what's the difference? Why is that allowed? Why wasn't it made mandatory for Danault or Drouin or Marc Andre Bergeron to be made captain?

If we look at international sports, fans here can watch and cheer for a variety of countries' soccer teams in the World Cup or they can support tennis players or golfers who don't speak English or French. I've never heard a single person here in Quebec say they couldn't cheer for Lionel Messi or Rafael Nadal because they don't speak French. If it were really such an issue for you to have to be able to understand someone directly to be able to support them, then as a Quebecer, why not refuse to support Tiger Woods or LeBron James or so on? Or why is it that the Alouettes' head coach has never needed to be a Francophone? Or why was it that Felipe Alou was one of the most-loved managers in Expos' history? No French there either.

Bottom line for me is that if people wanted to, they could get around it. I've never found that an athlete or coach or manager not speaking the same language as me has diminished my ability to support a team/player or enjoy their performance. I think the whole idea of a GM or coach having to be French is something people have had drummed into them by politicians and a few loud-mouthed journalists like Rejean Tremblay, and it's kind of taken on a life of its own. It's a made-up issue and the louder voices have prevailed in making it the focus of our hiring practices.

That's a totally level-headed perspective, I just think there's a lot of fans who don't agree with it.  Clearly the GM and coach being the two positions that need to speak french is somewhat arbitrary, but they are arguably two of the most important to speak to the media, even compared to the players (and going through a translator isn't quite the same).

 I would be interested to see a poll if fans would be opposed to hiring say Barry Trotz as coach. I think sometimes the debate ends up being between a mediocre anglophone coach like Cunneyworth and a mediocre French coach like Therrien, at which point, sure just go with the guy who can speak french. But if we could actually land someone who is clearly the best candidate, how many fans would be opposed to it (I don't care about the politicians, but I do care about the fans).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

I think sometimes the debate ends up being between a mediocre anglophone coach like Cunneyworth and a mediocre French coach like Therrien, at which point, sure just go with the guy who can speak french. But if we could actually land someone who is clearly the best candidate, how many fans would be opposed to it (I don't care about the politicians, but I do care about the fans).

This.

Aside from Julien, who while a great coach was probably getting to his best before date with the way the game is changing, when was the last time we even had a great coach, regardless of the language he spoke?

 Evaluating coaches can be tricky because if the team is good, then the coach tends to look better but all in all I dont think we've had a really "great" coach in a looong time.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

That's a totally level-headed perspective, I just think there's a lot of fans who don't agree with it.  Clearly the GM and coach being the two positions that need to speak french is somewhat arbitrary, but they are arguably two of the most important to speak to the media, even compared to the players (and going through a translator isn't quite the same).

 I would be interested to see a poll if fans would be opposed to hiring say Barry Trotz as coach. I think sometimes the debate ends up being between a mediocre anglophone coach like Cunneyworth and a mediocre French coach like Therrien, at which point, sure just go with the guy who can speak french. But if we could actually land someone who is clearly the best candidate, how many fans would be opposed to it (I don't care about the politicians, but I do care about the fans).

 

1 hour ago, maas_art said:

This.

Aside from Julien, who while a great coach was probably getting to his best before date with the way the game is changing, when was the last time we even had a great coach, regardless of the language he spoke?

 Evaluating coaches can be tricky because if the team is good, then the coach tends to look better but all in all I dont think we've had a really "great" coach in a looong time.  

I don't necessarily disagree, but how much of that is self-inflicted because of the language requirement?  Did we even take a crack at Babcock for example when he left the Wings (and the guy went to McGill no less)?  I don't recall rolling out the welcome mat for any of them.

Let's be honest here, I don't think guys Dick Irvin, Toe, Scotty Bowman or Pat Burns would get a crack at the job these days.  Let's also be equally honest, the performance of Francophone coaches have been abysmal, especially in recent years.  Guy Lafleur mentioned Scotty never spoke French to him on the bench and it wasn't a problem.  So then if you eliminate great coaching candidates based on whether they spoke French, then those that demanded it have no business complaining about the produce on the ice.  They enabled it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, I sort of wanted to say, I don't think it's fair to compare Randy Cunneyworth to the discussion (you can add Bob Gainey who had 2 stints to that list too).  Not that I think Cunneyworth was any good, but he was interrim coach after Jacques Martin (who I actually liked, they actually had a PP under him) was let go.  He never was intended to be head coach and if I recall, it was communicated that he wasn't going to get the job.  So I think we shouldn't include somebody who shouldn't have gotten and we wouldn't have given the job otherwise to the discussion.  This compared to the coaches whom the Habs actually went out, recruited and paid money for.  So if we remove interrim Cunneyworth and Gainey, the team hasn't had an Anglophone coach in just under 30 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Disillusioned1 said:

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but how much of that is self-inflicted because of the language requirement?  Did we even take a crack at Babcock for example when he left the Wings (and the guy went to McGill no less)?  I don't recall rolling out the welcome mat for any of them.

I believe that MB met with Babcock.  I am pretty sure Babcock said as much but I dont know how far they actually got. I know that he went on record saying his french was rusty but that he would tkae classes if he did get offered/took the job. 

 

1 hour ago, Disillusioned1 said:

Let's be honest here, I don't think guys Dick Irvin, Toe, Scotty Bowman or Pat Burns would get a crack at the job these days.  Let's also be equally honest, the performance of Francophone coaches have been abysmal, especially in recent years.  Guy Lafleur mentioned Scotty never spoke French to him on the bench and it wasn't a problem.  So then if you eliminate great coaching candidates based on whether they spoke French, then those that demanded it have no business complaining about the produce on the ice.  They enabled it.

Im not sure why you think those guys wouldnt get a shot?  Blake, Burns and Bowman were all fluent... Irvin I believe spoke french (although it was not his mother tongue)... so im not sure what you mean but maybe im missing something.
 

 

1 hour ago, Disillusioned1 said:

Also, I sort of wanted to say, I don't think it's fair to compare Randy Cunneyworth to the discussion (you can add Bob Gainey who had 2 stints to that list too).  Not that I think Cunneyworth was any good, but he was interrim coach after Jacques Martin (who I actually liked, they actually had a PP under him) was let go.  He never was intended to be head coach and if I recall, it was communicated that he wasn't going to get the job.  So I think we shouldn't include somebody who shouldn't have gotten and we wouldn't have given the job otherwise to the discussion.  This compared to the coaches whom the Habs actually went out, recruited and paid money for.  So if we remove interrim Cunneyworth and Gainey, the team hasn't had an Anglophone coach in just under 30 years.

I think the inclusion of Cunnyworth in the discussion was simply to point out that we havent really had the opportunity at a quenneville or a trotz or a cooper etc.   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • H_T_L locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...