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Habs Clean house. Bergevin, Timmins, Wilson Terminated


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New Contract?  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you feel MB deserves a new contract?

    • Yes,,, he's earned it.
      1
    • Absolutely not,,, he hasn't earned it.
      11
    • Undecided
      1

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13 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

That's a totally level-headed perspective, I just think there's a lot of fans who don't agree with it.  Clearly the GM and coach being the two positions that need to speak french is somewhat arbitrary, but they are arguably two of the most important to speak to the media, even compared to the players (and going through a translator isn't quite the same).

 I would be interested to see a poll if fans would be opposed to hiring say Barry Trotz as coach. I think sometimes the debate ends up being between a mediocre anglophone coach like Cunneyworth and a mediocre French coach like Therrien, at which point, sure just go with the guy who can speak french. But if we could actually land someone who is clearly the best candidate, how many fans would be opposed to it (I don't care about the politicians, but I do care about the fans).

If you believe the rumors, the team interviewed Gerard Gallant as a possible replacement under Bergevin, although ultimately went in another direction. So it doesn't sound like it was completely off the table, although who knows if that was just a gesture and whether he actually had a real chance. But I agree with your point to some degree: who are the top coaches in the game today? Jon Cooper? Rod Brind'Amour? Trotz? Maurice? Laviolette? You'd have to believe that today, given all that Molson and Bergevin and Gorton have said, none of them would be considered as a candidate.

Now, how many Francophone candidates are top 10 coaches in the league? How many teams, if they could hire any coach they wanted tomorrow, would choose a Francophone coach if they had access to anyone? You can argue Julien and Vigneault would have jobs in the ranks of the top 32, but Therrien IMO would not and I don't think anyone would have a French coach in their top 2-3 choices. So right away there, we're playing with an inferior candidate pool if we'd turn down Cooper and Brind'Amour and so on.

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34 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I think the inclusion of Cunnyworth in the discussion was simply to point out that we havent really had the opportunity at a quenneville or a trotz or a cooper etc.   

 

I mentioned Cunneyworth because that was the last time we had a specific uproar over the language requirement (and it's not totally clear whether or not at the time of the appointment he was being considered for the permanent role, or if say a cup run would have made the team go back on their public statements, in any case, clearly the combination of uproar + poor record made the decision easy).

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31 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I believe that MB met with Babcock.  I am pretty sure Babcock said as much but I dont know how far they actually got. I know that he went on record saying his french was rusty but that he would tkae classes if he did get offered/took the job. 

 

Im not sure why you think those guys wouldnt get a shot?  Blake, Burns and Bowman were all fluent... Irvin I believe spoke french (although it was not his mother tongue)... so im not sure what you mean but maybe im missing something.
 

 

I think the inclusion of Cunnyworth in the discussion was simply to point out that we havent really had the opportunity at a quenneville or a trotz or a cooper etc.   

 

As mentioned, I generally agree.  But to my other point, we haven't had a Anglophone coach in almost 30 years, which why I generally question if they'll get a shot, despite being fluent.  I could certainly be wrong, but on the face of it, I don't think the record looks good.  The way I see it right now, if Gorton is really the GM (which seems to be the concensus) and we'll be hiring a figure-head Francophone GM, I'd say that's a cop-out.

I'll however say my post came off as being more political than I intended.  I don't think when a person is born he's destined to be a GM/coach and I certainly understand the desire for Francophones to have a Francophone GM/coach.  So let's say they want to hire a great Anglophone GM/coach with a Francophone assistant who can be groomed into the role, I'm perfectly fine with that.  But we haven't done that either.

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56 minutes ago, Disillusioned1 said:

 The way I see it right now, if Gorton is really the GM (which seems to be the concensus) and we'll be hiring a figure-head Francophone GM, I'd say that's a cop-out.

I totally think thats what's happening.  I dont think Gorton takes this job unless he's 'the boss."  Sure, maybe he hires a GM that's good with contracts or something but I think the deals, the construction and development of this team will all be him & his decisions.  Its why I actually wouldnt be surprised to see us pick a female GM (francophone, obviously). 

56 minutes ago, Disillusioned1 said:

I'll however say my post came off as being more political than I intended.  I don't think when a person is born he's destined to be a GM/coach and I certainly understand the desire for Francophones to have a Francophone GM/coach.  So let's say they want to hire a great Anglophone GM/coach with a Francophone assistant who can be groomed into the role, I'm perfectly fine with that.  But we haven't done that either.

Its not a simple issue for sure.  Quebec is a very unique situation.  I dont think any other team cares where its GM or coach or players are from. Sure it might be fun for Calgary to have a "hometown boy" join the roster but its a footnote, not a whole marketing campaign.    And in the past, while we may have had some anglophone coaches, we did tend to have a lot more french players.  So sure, you'd love to have a guy like Lafreniere, Huberdeau, or Bergeron, or PL Dubois on the roster but they dont come easily - so the alternative is we go out & get plugs like Pacquette and Savard which just isnt the same thing.   

And its no different with Management.  Brisebois would be an amazing GM but he aint coming here so its either a second tier francophone or a great anglophone and we know which way we're likely to lean.

I dont mind using Gorton in this capacity because while itis, as you said, a cop-out, its probably about the only way to keep the masses happy and get the best possible team.

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7 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

If you believe the rumors, the team interviewed Gerard Gallant as a possible replacement under Bergevin, although ultimately went in another direction. So it doesn't sound like it was completely off the table, although who knows if that was just a gesture and whether he actually had a real chance. But I agree with your point to some degree: who are the top coaches in the game today? Jon Cooper? Rod Brind'Amour? Trotz? Maurice? Laviolette? You'd have to believe that today, given all that Molson and Bergevin and Gorton have said, none of them would be considered as a candidate.

Now, how many Francophone candidates are top 10 coaches in the league? How many teams, if they could hire any coach they wanted tomorrow, would choose a Francophone coach if they had access to anyone? You can argue Julien and Vigneault would have jobs in the ranks of the top 32, but Therrien IMO would not and I don't think anyone would have a French coach in their top 2-3 choices. So right away there, we're playing with an inferior candidate pool if we'd turn down Cooper and Brind'Amour and so on.

I would find it hilarious if all teams except for the Habs refused to hire any Francophones for any coaching or GM positions. 

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On 12/10/2021 at 11:53 AM, maas_art said:

I totally think thats what's happening.  I dont think Gorton takes this job unless he's 'the boss."  Sure, maybe he hires a GM that's good with contracts or something but I think the deals, the construction and development of this team will all be him & his decisions.  Its why I actually wouldnt be surprised to see us pick a female GM (francophone, obviously). 

Its not a simple issue for sure.  Quebec is a very unique situation.  I dont think any other team cares where its GM or coach or players are from. Sure it might be fun for Calgary to have a "hometown boy" join the roster but its a footnote, not a whole marketing campaign.    And in the past, while we may have had some anglophone coaches, we did tend to have a lot more french players.  So sure, you'd love to have a guy like Lafreniere, Huberdeau, or Bergeron, or PL Dubois on the roster but they dont come easily - so the alternative is we go out & get plugs like Pacquette and Savard which just isnt the same thing.   

And its no different with Management.  Brisebois would be an amazing GM but he aint coming here so its either a second tier francophone or a great anglophone and we know which way we're likely to lean.

I dont mind using Gorton in this capacity because while itis, as you said, a cop-out, its probably about the only way to keep the masses happy and get the best possible team.

Agreed, the challenge isn't that there aren't great francophone coaches / GM candidates, but rather that most of the elite guys are going to be under contract at the point you have an opening. I'm sure Brisebois would have loved to have become Habs GM, but given the team's commitment to MB, you couldn't expect him to wait around indefinitely and now he has a great gig he has no good reason to leave (and even if he wanted to, unlikely we could approach him without tampering).

So basically, to not be at a disadvantage, we need a bunch of things to align at the same time. Even look at the Julien hiring: I don't think Therrien's seat was particularly hot at the time, but when Julien became available we had to jump (one of MB's better decisions).

And I choose to look at the Gorton "cop-out" in a slightly more positive light: as a reasonable compromise that will make everyone reasonably happy.  The team got the best candidate to lead the rebuild, francophones will get a francophone face of management and the GM title, and Gorton avoids the media (which apparently he doesn't enjoy). If we had to use some creative terminology to keep everyone happy, so be it.

 

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16 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

Agreed, the challenge isn't that there aren't great francophone coaches / GM candidates, but rather that most of the elite guys are going to be under contract at the point you have an opening. I'm sure Brisebois would have loved to have become Habs GM, but given the team's commitment to MB, you couldn't expect him to wait around indefinitely and now he has a great gig he has no good reason to leave (and even if he wanted to, unlikely we could approach him without tampering).

So basically, to not be at a disadvantage, we need a bunch of things to align at the same time. Even look at the Julien hiring: I don't think Therrien's seat was particularly hot at the time, but when Julien became available we had to jump (one of MB's better decisions).

And I choose to look at the Gorton "cop-out" in a slightly more positive light: as a reasonable compromise that will make everyone reasonably happy.  The team got the best candidate to lead the rebuild, francophones will get a francophone face of management and the GM title, and Gorton avoids the media (which apparently he doesn't enjoy). If we had to use some creative terminology to keep everyone happy, so be it.

 

I agree, I am happy with the set up we have going forward as long as the right moves are made and we move forward the only ones complaining will be the radical boo birds in the franco media. Montreal fans just want a good team the folks complaining are either doing it to get ratings or they are not true fans of the team because they are putting politics ahead of the team.

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