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Habs Clean house. Bergevin, Timmins, Wilson Terminated


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New Contract?  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you feel MB deserves a new contract?

    • Yes,,, he's earned it.
      1
    • Absolutely not,,, he hasn't earned it.
      11
    • Undecided
      1

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8 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Some thoughts on your thoughts:

- I'm not retaining that much of Price's salary. He's signed for another 4 years at 10.5M after this season, and frankly, the Habs' goal should be to return to being a Cup challenger during that period. With Suzuki, Romanov, Norlinder, Ylonen, Poehling, Primeau, Guhle, Harris, Caufield, etc. all in the system, you would hope that you can re-tool around some of those players. I doubt we're a contender next year and maybe the one after that, but in Year 3 and 4, you absolutely need to be relevant. Look at what Gorton did with the Rangers. You trade guys for 1st rounders, and you look to add players who can be difference makers the way NY added Panarin and Fox. The Rangers are in the mix as a competitive team already and have a .725 winning percentage so far this year. So in that regard, you can't be eating 5.25M of dead salary for the next 4 years. That means that if you sign another half-decent starter at 5M, you're still paying 10.25M in money to get one starting goalie and you're no further ahead in getting a good one. If another team wants us to eat 2M or so, fine. If they want us to eat 4 or 5M, it's a no-go for me. Price is still an asset. If I'm trading him, it's because there are assets coming back and/or I'm getting out of all or nearly all of the cap hit. There's zero point in paying Price as much as the team getting him for 4 years.

- Allen, as I've detailed before, is a much more interesting asset to trade. He's signed to a reasonable deal, he has experience starting, and his numbers are virtually identical to Kuemper, who was just dealt for a 1st, a 3rd, and a blue chip prospect. If I can make a deal like that, I'd gladly sell Allen.

- Chiarot should be done and should garner us a 1st. I'd move Kulak and Wideman too, but I think we're looking at mid-level picks for those guys, so it's not moving the needle much. Savard, yes, should be dumped ASAP, but I doubt we can move him.

- At wing, I think Lehkonen is a guy to move. He's still young and he's a free agent after this season, so there's no commitment for the acquiring team, yet he's an RFA, so they can still control his rights and/or get compensation if they want it. That's high value for another team. I think he could also get you a 1st or high-end prospect. He's a good player and highly-valued across the league (other teams have inquired about his availability before and there were rumors Sakic wanted him two years ago), but I think he's pretty much at ceiling. He'll be a great defensive player, excellent forechecker and poor goal-scorer.

- I'd also deal Gallagher if we could, again because I think he has value across the league and because I worry about his ability to not wear down over the duration of his contract. He has more value to someone who can win now as opposed to a team like us that's a couple of years away. Like you, I'm listening on Toffoli if there are offers but I'm also fine with keeping him. And I think the other guy to maybe go is Drouin, who has shorter term left on his contract and can provide value on a return.

- Veterans I'd keep for now would include Petry (who has low trade value right now but who I see as rebounding in the future, not to mention we have absolutely no one behind him on the right side), Anderson (unique skillset and a guy who puts in big effort every night and who seems to want to be here), Dvorak (not loving him as a player but I think we need to wait for his value to go up), and Armia (like Dvorak, I'd wait a bit to see if he can re-establish value).

So in order, the players I'd most like to try and move now based on likely return value would be Chiarot, Lehkonen, Allen, and Drouin. If you can move a Price, Gallagher, Toffoli, Byron, Perreault, Paquette, Wideman, Kulak, etc. for a decent return, then go for it, but I'm not in a rush to sell and eat salary for the first few guys and I don't think we'll get much for the others.

If we accomplish selling those 4 guys I mentioned, I'd recall Ylonen and Vejdemo and maybe RHP up front and I'd be pushing hard to sign and play Jordan Harris after his university season is over.

 

 

 

 

 

yeah I agree on Price. I'm willing to eat half, even though I know it may hurt us year 4, but I'm only doing it for a sizable return. I'm talking a first, an A prospect, and a roster player AT LEAST. I think Price is worth that at 5.25 million to a contending team. 

Yeah you can sell me on moving Lehkonen based on return. I only rather a Byron in the sense that Lehkonen could still be here and be a useful player in 3 years, Byron is unlikely at his age

I basically agree with everything but when you say trade Drouin, I don't think you can trade your only relvant french canadian hockey player on your team unless you somehow get others. And we can do worse than Drouin

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

in fairness to the Organization, its entirely possible MB "promised" him that when he retired or changed position, it would be his.  Seems odd that Molson or anyone else within the organization would "promise" a guy a job when they already have someone in place & dont know how long he'll be there for. 

 

That's what I understood.

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4 hours ago, claremont said:

Exactly - Martin Madden has the resume and experience. Otherwise 53 year old Gorton is taking a flyer on someone like Yanick Jean from the QMJHL - Chicoutimi - Patrick Roy would need to be roped in instead of a pissing match with Gorton, Roberto Luongo is inexperienced, Mathieu Darche is probably tied to Tampa Bay, Jocelyn Thibault from Hockey Quebec and previously managed Sherbrooke is inexperienced, Phillippe Boucher from the QMJHL is interesting but maybe not dynamic enough - Managing at the junior level is one thing for prospects evaluation and scouting - negotiating at the NHL is a whole different level.

 

8 hours ago, H_T_L said:

If MB feels so blindsided then maybe he should consider resigning. 

Did  someone say thoughts on mathieu Darche or other candidates for GM - repeating my post above

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Hard to complain about someone who got us a chance for a cup for the first time in 28 years. I liked a lot of the trades he made. His management of the AHL team was not very good and his management of the coaching staff with the hiring of Julien was not a good choice. Alas the players you believe in have to perform and recent decisions, including those at the draft have drawn a lot of negative attention to the team. It is now on the players to perform as Gorton will be assessing what he has. My list of players to move is short to start. Pacquette, Wideman and Perrault (although I liked his skillset) need to be moved to allow some youth into the line-up. Although the dressing of 7 Dmen the last 2 games appears to indicate Ducharme doesn't feel he has much depth at forward. I think Gorton will need to meet with Price and see what he would like to do. Allen has shown he is  a middle of the pack starter and with a descent backup (Primeau) our goaltending is still stable either way. The forwards and their costs are reasonable  but they have clearly underperformed so far this year.

I thought Gorton is a great choice to lead us back to promise land as long as he's not chasing any Bowmans. Perhaps Lemaire, Brodeur and Damphousse will get a look or will we try to hire the first female GM? Interesting times for les bleu, blanc et rouge. No need to start over yet, there is some good talent here, but the back end is broken and the cap management and contracts needs to be fixed.

 

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

yeah I agree on Price. I'm willing to eat half, even though I know it may hurt us year 4, but I'm only doing it for a sizable return. I'm talking a first, an A prospect, and a roster player AT LEAST. I think Price is worth that at 5.25 million to a contending team. 

Yeah you can sell me on moving Lehkonen based on return. I only rather a Byron in the sense that Lehkonen could still be here and be a useful player in 3 years, Byron is unlikely at his age

I basically agree with everything but when you say trade Drouin, I don't think you can trade your only relvant french canadian hockey player on your team unless you somehow get others. And we can do worse than Drouin

Don't get me wrong, I actually like what Drouin brings. He's one of the few Habs who can carry the puck successfully from our blue line into the O zone. That said, his contract expires in a little over a year and I have a hard time believing he'll be back if he's finding it hard to cope with the pressure of being in Montreal. So if he's not part of the longterm plan, when is his trade value likely to be highest. When he has two playoff runs left in his contract while in his prime. This is Drouin's prime right now. It's unlikely he ascends more than what he's giving us now. He's a 45-50 point 2nd line player if healthy and that's fine. But I don't see a future for him in Montreal and I want to maximize what we get back for him, so I'd look at dealing him this season. I think he has value and trading him has nothing to do with not seeing value in him. I'd much rather trade Paquette and Perreault, but they have minimal value.

As for French players, well we're stuck with Savard and we still have Montembeault (who would likely still be here if we trade Allen). Paul Byron also speaks French, albeit that may not be enough for some politicians since he's not from Quebec. They could further go and grab a prospect like Xavier Bourgault in a trade if they swung Chiarot to Edmonton, for example. As I've said many times before, we shouldn't be building at team around making sure we have X number of French players here. It's a bonus if you can make it work, but shouldn't be your primary raison d'etre. You look at the Rangers, where Gorton is coming from, and they have 7 total Americans on their roster, only 1 of whom is from NY state. That's Adam Fox, the reigning Norris winner and a guy who forced himself onto the team but refusing to play for anyone else. The Rangers didn't go out of their way to rebuild around native New Yorkers. To boot, they have 3 Quebecers on their roster. So I frankly couldn't give a care as to whether Drouin is French. If the best move for the team is to trade him, he should be traded.

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^^ On the subject of how many hometown players each team has, I just mentioned the Rangers have 1 player (Fox) from NY state. The Isles have only Palmieri from NY state. NJ has no one from NJ and only one from NY state (Miles Wood). The Flyers have no one from Pennsylvania and the Pens have one. The Caps have no one local, nor do the Canes. The Blue Jackets have 2 from Ohio. Boston has 2 players from Massachusetts. Buffalo has only 1 (Alex Tuch) from NY state and they just traded for him (and he's on IR). Detroit has 3 from Michigan, including their best player Dylan Larkin. Florida has no one from their home state and only two Americans total on the entire roster. Tampa also has no one from Florida. The only two teams in our entire conference with more homegrown players are the Sens with 8 and Leafs with 10, and we all know Ontario has a much larger pool of players to choose from. Ultimately, most teams just don't have a lot of homegrown players and they certainly aren't actively shopping or reaching to add those players to their rosters.

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1 hour ago, claremont said:

 

Did  someone say thoughts on mathieu Darche or other candidates for GM - repeating my post above

I have zero knowledge on how effective Darche may be as a GM. I'm guessing it would be a crapshoot and i wouldn't bet my last dollar that Molson wants to go with another rookie at the helm,, unless it's like Ted mentioned,,, it would be a go between appointment where the real guy in charge is the new hire, and anybody else would be learning on the job and deal with the required language issues.

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1 hour ago, Habberwacky said:

Hard to complain about someone who got us a chance for a cup for the first time in 28 year

 

We got into the playoffs on an abnormal format (12 teams vs 8) and then the following year the only reason we even get into the playoffs is the all Canadian division.   So our finals appearance should have an asterix beside it because in any normal year we don't even qualify.

Even with Carey in net for the start of this season we're a 500 team at best.   It's been a decade and we have the same roster problems we've always had ... holes through out the lineup.

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37 minutes ago, electron58 said:

These are my predictions for the new Hab GM, in the following order.  Assuming, they will be in training. Definitely, a diverse group.

Mathieu Darche

Roberto Luongo

Danniel Briere

dark horse  =  Martin Madden Jr.

What say you?

I think Darche and Madden Jr are the two front runners.  Briere, Luongo, Brunet and Thibault are all names i have heard as ex players but I dont see us going that route unless we truly are putting in a "figurehead" and that Gorton really is the guy who will be pulling the strings.

My dark horse on who we might select is either Danielle Goyette or Gina Kingsbury - yes, women.  I would not be shocked at all to see Molson hire a woman. The Marlins have a female GM in baseball & i believe the Eagles had a female GM in football... It would certainly reverse some of the ill-will on the Mailloux pick ;) 

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2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I think Darche and Madden Jr are the two front runners.  Briere, Luongo, Brunet and Thibault are all names i have heard as ex players but I dont see us going that route unless we truly are putting in a "figurehead" and that Gorton really is the guy who will be pulling the strings.

My dark horse on who we might select is either Danielle Goyette or Gina Kingsbury - yes, women.  I would not be shocked at all to see Molson hire a woman. The Marlins have a female GM in baseball & i believe the Eagles had a female GM in football... It would certainly reverse some of the ill-will on the Mailloux pick ;) 

I believe, that it would be a waste, to not use Gorton's expertise. That's why I listed the ex players first, by qualifications. I think Madden Jr. would want total control, and will probably get it in Anaheim. As for Darche.  He was always a hard worker. He worked for everything he got, and was very appreciative, to play for the Habs. He is educated and has been cutting his teeth in TB. I don't believe J. Brisboise is going anywhere soon. If the new GM has total control, I could see it being Madden Jr.  As for the women that you mentioned.  Possible.  They would fall into the same boat as the ex players, with Gorton doing the heavy lifting. But, Darche does have 2 things going for him. He is with a winning organization, and is learning from a smarter GM. I don't really believe that he can go much higher in TB.

from  HerbZurkowsky1  Sep 30, 2020  Montreal Gazette

While Mathieu  Darche, 43, who joined TB in May 2019,  aspires to become a GM himself one day, he understands he must pay his dues, taking one step at a time while remaining patient.

“It feels weird to say yes, but I’d love to become a GM one day,” he admitted. “The bottom line is I’m not in a hurry. I have lots to learn.”   

So, we will see.

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Interesting move by Molson, regardless of the actual title and who'll become GM it looks like Gorton was brought in to lead hockey ops. He did get a little lucky in NY with them winning the lottery and both Fox and Panarin zeroing in on their franchise, but his body of work suggests that he understands how to go about a proper rebuild.

Untouchables: essentially no one, yet any offer for Suzuki, Caufield, Anderson, or Romanov would have to absolutely blow me away, so they're basically untouchable. Everybody else is fair game though. Disclaimer: I'm not saying we absolutely have to unload every roster player, that's ridiculous and certainly not happening.

Priorities: Get something of value for all of our UFAs, especially Chiarot could fetch a nice return (the others... well, not so much). Trade Allen, we don't need to have ~13M of Cap space tied up in the league's best goalie tandem when we're rebuidling/retooling/resetting or however you'd like to call it. Consider trading Lehkonen if the price is right. Like others have said, he's a valuable PKer with limited offense who's still good for ~30 points per season and exactly the type of player teams love to add for the playoffs. Unloading Savard would be nice but it's probably wishful thinking at this point. Maybe there are teams who'd like to add him for the playoffs though. Finally, I'd try to include one of Hoffman, Drouin, Toffoli, or Gallagher in a trade for help at C or D. There will be teams looking to upgrade at the deadline and one of our scoring wingers could yield a nice return.

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10 hours ago, habsisme said:

yeah I agree on Price. I'm willing to eat half, even though I know it may hurt us year 4, but I'm only doing it for a sizable return. I'm talking a first, an A prospect, and a roster player AT LEAST. I think Price is worth that at 5.25 million to a contending team. 

Yeah you can sell me on moving Lehkonen based on return. I only rather a Byron in the sense that Lehkonen could still be here and be a useful player in 3 years, Byron is unlikely at his age

I basically agree with everything but when you say trade Drouin, I don't think you can trade your only relvant french canadian hockey player on your team unless you somehow get others. And we can do worse than Drouin

I am with this, why trade Leks for the sake of trading someone, if you plan on being a contender in 2 or 3 years, he can be a very valuable part of that team, he is young only 26, really good two way play who can move up and down the lineup on any given night. I say keep him and even sign him long term, 3 or 4 years at 3 per, 

Also like it or not we need some french players, Drouin is that guy, he seems to be playing really well this season, what I have noticed more this year is his effort to come back. He is still young only 26, very skilled, no need to move him just for the sake of a trade. 

we need to move on from the likes of, gallagher, toffolii, hoffman, armia, byron ,  petry if the right deal, savard, wideman, kulak, chariot etc..

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8 hours ago, electron58 said:

These are my predictions for the new Hab GM, in the following order.  Assuming, they will be in training. Definitely, a diverse group.

Mathieu Darche

Roberto Luongo

Danniel Briere

dark horse  =  Martin Madden Jr.

What say you?

 

What are their qualifications?  

 

 

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As I've said, I like Madden Jr. the most of rumored candidates, but my feeling is that they'll likely put someone in place who is less experienced and will take orders from Gorton. I don't think Gorton was brought in to be a figurehead, he was brought in for his expertise at rebuilding. So to me, someone like Darche or Lapointe fits the bill of being the spokesperson for the front office without necessarily challenging Gorton for top billing on how to build the team. Martin Brodeur could be an option too, in addition to Roberto Luongo and then there's also Daniel Dore, who has ties to Gorton and could be moved to a GM role from a scouting role.

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