Blow it up?

[ramcharger440]

Well let's be real here our goose is cooked! there is pretty much no reasonable way this group of players is going to make the playoffs this year or in the near future! I think this is the right time to sell of some key vets who have value to build for the future, the one thing that has to get sorted out first is who will be running the show here? it can't be MB he has tried and failed, time to move on. I don't think all is lost we have some good young players and a wealth of good wingers we could keep to build the core of the team with, we could get the Defensive prospects we need with what we have to trade and in my mind we should move asap Price and Petry will be tough to move but I would try as they are at the end of the rope and we can't get them what they want so they should go. I would rather lose big and get draft picks now to build something new than to have them linger and fade more than they already have. Zuke CC and one or two of our better D prospect should stay the rest are free game to me as long as we keep enough good wingers to keep us respectable it can't be much worse than it is now! Price masked how bad the teams Defensive play was for so long it is time to move on.

[maas_art]

1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

Well let's be real here our goose is cooked! there is pretty much no reasonable way this group of players is going to make the playoffs this year or in the near future! I think this is the right time to sell of some key vets who have value to build for the future, the one thing that has to get sorted out first is who will be running the show here? it can't be MB he has tried and failed, time to move on. I don't think all is lost we have some good young players and a wealth of good wingers we could keep to build the core of the team with, we could get the Defensive prospects we need with what we have to trade and in my mind we should move asap Price and Petry will be tough to move but I would try as they are at the end of the rope and we can't get them what they want so they should go. I would rather lose big and get draft picks now to build something new than to have them linger and fade more than they already have. Zuke CC and one or two of our better D prospect should stay the rest are free game to me as long as we keep enough good wingers to keep us respectable it can't be much worse than it is now! Price masked how bad the teams Defensive play was for so long it is time to move on.

Despite the Cinderella run last year, this hasnt been a good team for a while. It made sense to blow things up even a couple of years ago but especially now.  For the past several years we've run a 'band-aid' scenario of Weber & Petry being just good enough to carry a pair as a tandem but now that one of them is gone, its just too much for poor Petry.  

We have NHL quality throughout the lineup but a lot of it is lower end.  We have 1st line centre and 1st line wingers but then what, a 3rd and 4th line centre being asked to play over their heads?    On defense we have a top pairing guy & then a whole bunch of #4-6 guys.  Petry cant carry your top 4 alone.

If I was GM this is how I would look at our current roster:

Essentially untouchable (no one is untouchable but it would take an elite player to make me consider moving any of these guys):
Suzuki, Caufield  (its sad there's only 2 names here)

Keep, unless the return is higher than their current value.  They are young enough to be useful for our rebuild. 
Drouin, Toffoli, Anderson, Dvorak, Armia, Lekhonen, Romanov, Norlinder, Brook, Niku, Evans, Primeau, Ylonen, Poehling, Kulak

Move, if anyone will take them for value:
Petry, Gallagher, Hoffman, Edmundson, Price, Perreault, Allen, Wideman

Move them for basically anything (cap hit alone is worth it):
Chiarot, Savard, Brooks, Pacquette, 

Im not saying you move everyone.  Even in a rebuild you're going to need vets, so i'd move Savard, Chairot and Edmundson but not all 3.   There's a good base to start with & the guys we could move have some value.  I think the key is to try to move guys NOW for 1st rounders.   If you can get say 3-4 1st rounders from guys like Chiarot, Gallagher, Petry...  there's a decent chance one of those teams ends up as a top 15 pick.   Wait till trade deadline & you're only getting 1sts from playoff teams. 

I also wouldnt move any prospects not in the NHL aside from maybe Harris who looks like he may not want to play for us. A guy like Fairbrother or Guhle or Mysak or Struble - they wont bring back much in value in a trade but if they pan out could come back to haunt us as a bad throw in. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ramcharger440]

8 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Despite the Cinderella run last year, this hasnt been a good team for a while. It made sense to blow things up even a couple of years ago but especially now.  For the past several years we've run a 'band-aid' scenario of Weber & Petry being just good enough to carry a pair as a tandem but now that one of them is gone, its just too much for poor Petry.  

We have NHL quality throughout the lineup but a lot of it is lower end.  We have 1st line centre and 1st line wingers but then what, a 3rd and 4th line centre being asked to play over their heads?    On defense we have a top pairing guy & then a whole bunch of #4-6 guys.  Petry cant carry your top 4 alone.

If I was GM this is how I would look at our current roster:

Essentially untouchable (no one is untouchable but it would take an elite player to make me consider moving any of these guys):
Suzuki, Caufield  (its sad there's only 2 names here)

Keep, unless the return is higher than their current value.  They are young enough to be useful for our rebuild. 
Drouin, Toffoli, Anderson, Dvorak, Armia, Lekhonen, Romanov, Norlinder, Brook, Niku, Evans, Primeau, Ylonen, Poehling, Kulak

Move, if anyone will take them for value:
Petry, Gallagher, Hoffman, Edmundson, Price, Perreault, Allen, Wideman

Move them for basically anything (cap hit alone is worth it):
Chiarot, Savard, Brooks, Pacquette, 

Im not saying you move everyone.  Even in a rebuild you're going to need vets, so i'd move Savard, Chairot and Edmundson but not all 3.   There's a good base to start with & the guys we could move have some value.  I think the key is to try to move guys NOW for 1st rounders.   If you can get say 3-4 1st rounders from guys like Chiarot, Gallagher, Petry...  there's a decent chance one of those teams ends up as a top 15 pick.   Wait till trade deadline & you're only getting 1sts from playoff teams. 

I also wouldnt move any prospects not in the NHL aside from maybe Harris who looks like he may not want to play for us. A guy like Fairbrother or Guhle or Mysak or Struble - they wont bring back much in value in a trade but if they pan out could come back to haunt us as a bad throw in. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree 100% with this even the players you mention and the value you place on them. of  the Dmen I would probably keep Eddy as we will need at least one good solid defender I would have kept Petry but at his age and possible value he should go to the highest bidder asap before he hurts himself or lowers his value!

[habsisme]

12 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Despite the Cinderella run last year, this hasnt been a good team for a while. It made sense to blow things up even a couple of years ago but especially now.  For the past several years we've run a 'band-aid' scenario of Weber & Petry being just good enough to carry a pair as a tandem but now that one of them is gone, its just too much for poor Petry.  

We have NHL quality throughout the lineup but a lot of it is lower end.  We have 1st line centre and 1st line wingers but then what, a 3rd and 4th line centre being asked to play over their heads?    On defense we have a top pairing guy & then a whole bunch of #4-6 guys.  Petry cant carry your top 4 alone.

If I was GM this is how I would look at our current roster:

Essentially untouchable (no one is untouchable but it would take an elite player to make me consider moving any of these guys):
Suzuki, Caufield  (its sad there's only 2 names here)

Keep, unless the return is higher than their current value.  They are young enough to be useful for our rebuild. 
Drouin, Toffoli, Anderson, Dvorak, Armia, Lekhonen, Romanov, Norlinder, Brook, Niku, Evans, Primeau, Ylonen, Poehling, Kulak

Move, if anyone will take them for value:
Petry, Gallagher, Hoffman, Edmundson, Price, Perreault, Allen, Wideman

Move them for basically anything (cap hit alone is worth it):
Chiarot, Savard, Brooks, Pacquette, 

Im not saying you move everyone.  Even in a rebuild you're going to need vets, so i'd move Savard, Chairot and Edmundson but not all 3.   There's a good base to start with & the guys we could move have some value.  I think the key is to try to move guys NOW for 1st rounders.   If you can get say 3-4 1st rounders from guys like Chiarot, Gallagher, Petry...  there's a decent chance one of those teams ends up as a top 15 pick.   Wait till trade deadline & you're only getting 1sts from playoff teams. 

I also wouldnt move any prospects not in the NHL aside from maybe Harris who looks like he may not want to play for us. A guy like Fairbrother or Guhle or Mysak or Struble - they wont bring back much in value in a trade but if they pan out could come back to haunt us as a bad throw in. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with how you've placed ppl except for political reasons, he's a useful 4th line player and french is Perrault. I would keep him, you wouldn't be getting much of a return i don't think. I'd move him for a first lol of course but i don't think you'd get much for him

[maas_art]

2 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I agree 100% with this even the players you mention and the value you place on them. of  the Dmen I would probably keep Eddy as we will need at least one good solid defender I would have kept Petry but at his age and possible value he should go to the highest bidder asap before he hurts himself or lowers his value!

Well and like I said, you dont trade Petry, Edmundson, Savard AND Chairot, but if you could move say 2 of them & get value, its defintely the time to do so. 

Nobody could save this season now. That many loses with a bubble team?  Never going to happen.  A good GM could probably turn this roster into a contender within 2-3 years. I really hope Molson is working on something behind the scenes because we need to start the rebuild now.  

 

 

[maas_art]

Just now, habsisme said:

I agree with how you've placed ppl except for political reasons, he's a useful 4th line player and french is Perrault. I would keep him, you wouldn't be getting much of a return i don't think. I'd move him for a first lol of course but i don't think you'd get much for him

For sure. And like everyone else in that group, I wouldnt expect to trade all of them.  I think Perreault is a good player (actually last year I was trying to get him on our roster as a 4th liner) its just a question of which of our moveable players are actually of interest to another team. 

[ramcharger440]

38 minutes ago, maas_art said:

For sure. And like everyone else in that group, I wouldnt expect to trade all of them.  I think Perreault is a good player (actually last year I was trying to get him on our roster as a 4th liner) its just a question of which of our moveable players are actually of interest to another team. 

Yes and the return. a good Gm would be able to do some wheeler dealer work and set us up for a fairly speedy rebuild as we have some good stuff cooking for our D and we are deep enough on the wings to still be ok there. Imagine us even now with one good top tier center and a couple of better younger D men. MB  needs to go and Douche needs to be more flexible, if his system is not working then change it! if the other team has you figured out during a game make some adjustments! other teams do it?

[habsisme]

Just now, ramcharger440 said:

Yes and the return. a good Gm would be able to do some wheeler dealer work and set us up for a fairly speedy rebuild as we have some good stuff cooking for our D and we are deep enough on the wings to still be ok there. Imagine us even now with one good top tier center and a couple of better younger D men. MB  needs to go and Douche needs to be more flexible, if his system is not working then change it! if the other team has you figured out during a game make some adjustments! other teams do it?

Yeah I agree. There's so much parity in the league. 1-3 players can completely change your team. But we need a top 4 dmen and and first pairing D man who can both move the puck and at least a 1B center (someone almost as good as Suzuki) and then we're contenders. Just 3 pieces but two are almost impossible to get. And goaltending, we need at least another prospect there

[Mark N]

Face it the Habs lost out on prime draft picks by going too the finals.

Habs finish in the bottom 2 or 3 in the League & we can take top tier talent.

Building for the future as we stock-up on young talent.

Go Habs Go

[kinot-2]

1 minute ago, Mark N said:

Face it the Habs lost out on prime draft picks by going too the finals.

Habs finish in the bottom 2 or 3 in the League & we can take top tier talent.

Building for the future as we stock-up on young talent.

Go Habs Go

How long is this gonna take? 

[electron58]

All I got to say, is.....

You got to Fight!

For the Right!

To draft Wright!

[kinot-2]

9 minutes ago, electron58 said:

All I got to say, is.....

You got to Fight!

For the Right!

To draft Wright!

Is that anything like "Fail for Nail"? 

[Regis22]

Blow it up - be prepared to to be a bottom feeder for a couple of years ( or more ) - not that they aren't now , or haven't been , bottom feeders for the last 5 , 6 years 

[habsisme]

2 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Blow it up - be prepared to to be a bottom feeder for a couple of years ( or more ) - not that they aren't now , or haven't been , bottom feeders for the last 5 , 6 years 

it hasn't quite been this bad. If we get lucky it may only take a year or two

[H_T_L]

Loser point tonight. Maybe next week.

[kinot-2]

16 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Loser point tonight. Maybe next week.

3 lousy points, out of 8 on home ice. 

[electron58]

3 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

Is that anything like "Fail for Nail"? 

Yeah.  The Oilers failed for Nail, then got Nailed!     

[kinot-2]

1 minute ago, electron58 said:

Yeah.  The Oilers failed for Nail, then got Nailed!     

[BigTed3]

9 hours ago, electron58 said:

Yeah.  The Oilers failed for Nail, then got Nailed!     

They should have Norsberg'd for Forsberg.

[jennifer_rocket]

15 hours ago, electron58 said:

All I got to say, is.....

You got to Fight!

For the Right!

To draft Wright!

Nice Beastie Boys reference! 

[jennifer_rocket]

I would definitely blow it up. I've been hoping Bergevin would be fired for years and we could have a GM come in with the mandate to blow it up and rebuild... Not this "retooling" that Bergevin talks about. We need to draft and develop top-end talent. I would argue that we haven't been able to add any superstar additions at forward or defense at all during Bergevin's tenure. Price had an amazing four years with us from 2013-2017, but he cannot be expected to carry the team anymore. We need to rebuild. I am fine with spending 3-4 years being terrible if it means drafting and developing well. Looking to 2025-2026 to turn the corner.

[26NCounting]

Blow it up!!!  100% agree

 

First off I would hope we have an entire change to the front office first From GM right down to Coffee Lady and yes most certainly the scouting dept!

 

I would also add Romanov to the no move list unless a substantial return.  He is a very talented D man and can certainly hold his own to build a D core around.  I just think the lack of talent around him compounds his inexperience

[JB1979]

This season sure seems like a wash.  I know it's still early but they have dug themselves a huge hole to try and dig themselves out of.  Even with Price returning at some point in the near future the team will be better.  But why not tank this season and even next?  Imagine being lucky enough through the draft to land Wright and Bedard in back to back years.

[BigTed3]

1 hour ago, JB1979 said:

This season sure seems like a wash.  I know it's still early but they have dug themselves a huge hole to try and dig themselves out of.  Even with Price returning at some point in the near future the team will be better.  But why not tank this season and even next?  Imagine being lucky enough through the draft to land Wright and Bedard in back to back years.

One word: absolutely. The Habs in their current incarnation likely aren't going to win a Cup in the next 2-3 years and the fastest path forward to true contender status is to land bona fide stars through the draft. Sure, you can patch a playoff team together and hope to run into some luck as we did last year, but you want to be a powerhouse like Tampa, Boston, Vegas, Washington, or so on and you need to draft those elite players to add to your core.

The problem the Habs will run into this year is that if they end up with a top pick, there's Wright and then there's a handful of guys in the 2-8 slots and then there's a lot of unknown, just like last year's draft. Most of these prospects have had their junior careers derailed a bit and haven't been heavily-scouted in person until now, so it's much harder for teams to pinpoint deficiencies and hidden talent. In Wright's case, he's clearly the prize of the draft, but past that you have a lot of wingers hanging out in the top 10 rankings and while useful, those players likely aren't going to solve our immediate holes in the next 2-3 years either.

Fast-forward to 2023, and that draft is already looking more stacked. From Bedard to Fantilli to Dvorsky, the top end of the draft looks much better and certainly deeper at center than this year's. Neither draft has a high number of top-end D men identified yet, although that could change over time.

All that to say, that if I'm the Habs, I'm perfectly okay with being bad for this year and next. It sets you up with the possibility of getting two top 5 premium players to your line-up and having them become impactful while some of your younger guys (Suzuki, Norlinder, Guhle, Romanov, Harris, Ylonen, etc.) are still in their prime. In fact, if I'm MB I'd be looking for which of my own players I could trade to bring back a 1st rounder and I'm even more okay if that 1st rounder ends up being a 2023 pick. There are rumors Chiarot could bring back a 1st and if that's the case, that has to be a no-brainer for a 30+ impending UFA. If Carey comes back strong and I can wheel him out for a 1st or blue chip prospect, I'd consider that too. Ditto for trading the likes of Lehkonen, Drouin, Hoffman, Toffoli, and so on. You can't trade all of them, but you find out which guys have value. If you're getting a 1st back from a team that's on the bubble to make the playoffs, then consider taking the 2022 1st rounder and hope it becomes a lottery pick, but playing the longer game and taking the 2023 pick in a better draft and where there's more unknowns at play could be the superior choice. Teams like Boston, Pittsburgh, Calgary, Washington, Nashville, Dallas, Philadelphia... all teams that have older core players and that could be at risk of falling off a cliff due to losing free agents, injuries, or just age. Grabbing a 2023 1st from one of them could set you up for double lottery picks in a year.

[electron58]

20 hours ago, electron58 said:

All I got to say, is.....

You got to Fight!

For the Right!

To draft Wright!

 

4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Nice Beastie Boys reference! 

Thanks. I like good music.   👍