TRADE DEADLINE March 21st

[habs1952]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[H_T_L]

2 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good one.

[kinot-2]

Heck, they didn't assess any penalties. Whatup with that? 

[Graeme-1]

9 hours ago, campabee82 said:

According to Steve Dangles podcast, the league did in fact deny the trade. He says it would have been bad PR.

To be fair, that's not what he actually said, or at least it was corrected afterwards.  What he claims isn't that the league officially denied a trade (which they could only do if the trade violated some rules, and we almost certainly would have heard about it), but rather than league officials tried to talk Arizona out of it while they were working on a deal.

This still strikes me as somewhat unlikely because why would the Coyotes be discussing possible trades with the league ahead of time? I guess it's possible someone in the league heard rumours and reached out, but still seems like atretch.

Also, while I like Dangle, he's no insider. I don't think he's lying that someone else inside the business said this to him, but I wouldn't trust his sources are reliable.

[Graeme-1]

1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

haha that's great

[Graeme-1]

5 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

a team cannot keep a recovered player on LTIR. In other words, it's against the CBA to ask a player to remain on LTIR when they're okay to play. Last year, the odds that both Kucherov and Stamkos were exactly ready to play right at the end of the regular season but in time for Game 1 would have been very low. Tampa clearly circumvented the spirit of the CBA by not having them come back a day earlier than they did. I imaging Vegas may be stuck trying to do the same thing. But if Stone is ready, let's say, then Vegas would have to dump 8.5M in salary to fit him back in. Will there suddenly be other injuries? Will they have to demote 9 guys to the minors and play short-handed? Will they trade away Dadonov anyways?

The trouble is "healthy" isn't a binary thing. I mean Shea Weber was a beast for us all last playoffs and right afterwards we heard his career was over. Did he have a career ending injury in that Tampa series? No, he was just an injured player playing through it previously. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to place him on LTIR this year (you could see the argument "if he was healthy enough to play then and didn't get injured in the meantime, he should be healthy enough to play now").  Similarly, it's clear Stone's injury is legitimate, but it's also one he could play through if needed, and that "if needed" bar will be higher in the playoffs.

There's no great solution to this loophole. Any solution that involves the NHL forcing injured players to play because "well we think you could still play if you really wanted to" even if both them and their team want them to sit is a non-starter, as is any solution involving potentially punishing players for being injured. What could work is adjusting the LTIR rules or trying to somehow apply the salary cap to the playoffs (neither are simple solutions and would involve CBA changes, and it's not clear the NHL or NHLPA really care about this enough to bother). And Vegas is showing the risk of this strategy anyways.

Will Mark Stone truly be "recovered" at any point this season? Perhaps not (although if he's relatively healthy and wants to play, Vegas would have trouble shutting him down), but the biggest problem for Vegas right now may be they desperately need Mark Stone just to make the playoffs: sitting him until the playoffs isn't a good solution even if they can get away with it.

I suspect they kick this can down the road: they have plenty of injured players and may be able to play around with LTIR. At the point Stone or others need to return they may cross that bridge when they get to it.  The trade deadline sort of forced them to act, but now that they've crossed into the "player can't play for rest of the season" territory anyways, probably not a huge different in waiting a few more weeks.

 

[Graeme-1]

5 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Frank Seravalli is reporting other teams have contacted Vegas to offer to take Dadonov off their hands but are asking for a 1st round choice to make it happen. So Vegas is in a real hole here. I also still feel like Ottawa should be punished for something here, as it really sounds like they lied to the league and Vegas about the status of the NTC.

It's unclear if it was a lie or a mistake (I think it was Lebrun or Friedman who mentioned  how informal the process of providing the 10 teams is, it leaves lots of room for errors). I tend to lean towards mistake: the only benefit to lying is if they thought the 10-team NTC would make Vegas want to walk away from the player, which seems unlikely.  Probably no way to know for sure unless someone chirps.

Either way, whether due to incompetence or maliciousness, seems worthy of punishment. The only reason they may get away with it is they can argue the system is so messed up (Central Registry not knowing about NTC lists) that screw-ups like this were bound to happen.   Basically ... blame the league for putting them in a situation where they made this mistake.

 

[habsisme]

1 hour ago, Graeme-1 said:

The trouble is "healthy" isn't a binary thing. I mean Shea Weber was a beast for us all last playoffs and right afterwards we heard his career was over. Did he have a career ending injury in that Tampa series? No, he was just an injured player playing through it previously. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to place him on LTIR this year (you could see the argument "if he was healthy enough to play then and didn't get injured in the meantime, he should be healthy enough to play now").  Similarly, it's clear Stone's injury is legitimate, but it's also one he could play through if needed, and that "if needed" bar will be higher in the playoffs.

There's no great solution to this loophole. Any solution that involves the NHL forcing injured players to play because "well we think you could still play if you really wanted to" even if both them and their team want them to sit is a non-starter, as is any solution involving potentially punishing players for being injured. What could work is adjusting the LTIR rules or trying to somehow apply the salary cap to the playoffs (neither are simple solutions and would involve CBA changes, and it's not clear the NHL or NHLPA really care about this enough to bother). And Vegas is showing the risk of this strategy anyways.

Will Mark Stone truly be "recovered" at any point this season? Perhaps not (although if he's relatively healthy and wants to play, Vegas would have trouble shutting him down), but the biggest problem for Vegas right now may be they desperately need Mark Stone just to make the playoffs: sitting him until the playoffs isn't a good solution even if they can get away with it.

I suspect they kick this can down the road: they have plenty of injured players and may be able to play around with LTIR. At the point Stone or others need to return they may cross that bridge when they get to it.  The trade deadline sort of forced them to act, but now that they've crossed into the "player can't play for rest of the season" territory anyways, probably not a huge different in waiting a few more weeks.

 

There is an easy solution to this problem, so easy, the NHL would never do it. In the playoffs, you cannot ice a team (of only 20 players, no one else counts) that would be over the cap. That simple. Than there are no more issues. 

[campabee82]

35 minutes ago, habsisme said:

There is an easy solution to this problem, so easy, the NHL would never do it. In the playoffs, you cannot ice a team (of only 20 players, no one else counts) that would be over the cap. That simple. Than there are no more issues. 

Another easy solution would be if a player ends the season on the IR they are ineligible for the playoffs. Boom done no more cap circumvention, cause they would have to be under the cap for the last game of the season.

[campabee82]

Ok I know there are a lot that want Montreal to trade for Dadonov BUT I don't want to. Here is my reasoning, Montreal is probably on his NTL so we would have to go through the entire waiving  getting approval and everything crap. So my proposal is this, we trade for Reilly Smith. He is a pending UFA and already on the IR so not being able to play him for the remainder of the season is irrelevant and MOST importantly he has no trade protection. He also has the same cap hit as Dadonov. All we need to ask for is the Knights 1st. 

[Graeme-1]

1 hour ago, habsisme said:

There is an easy solution to this problem, so easy, the NHL would never do it. In the playoffs, you cannot ice a team (of only 20 players, no one else counts) that would be over the cap. That simple. Than there are no more issues. 

That  is a possible solution, but given the current cap model is based on the idea of "accruing" cap space, it's not an easy change and would have side effects on things like trade deadline.  I'm not against it, I'm just saying it's a pretty major change to how cap accounting works.

[Graeme-1]

1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

Another easy solution would be if a player ends the season on the IR they are ineligible for the playoffs. Boom done no more cap circumvention, cause they would have to be under the cap for the last game of the season.

This solution seems to potentially punish players for being injured (I guess a team can put an injured player on the roster, but they only have 3 spare spots on a 23 man roster).   And keep in mind the "under the cap for last game of the season" may not close much of the loophole given the way unused cap space can accrue.

[campabee82]

4 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

This solution seems to potentially punish players for being injured (I guess a team can put an injured player on the roster, but they only have 3 spare spots on a 23 man roster).   And keep in mind the "under the cap for last game of the season" may not close much of the loophole given the way unused cap space can accrue.

Not really,if the are injured they are injured and get the playoff to recuperate. Sure they may want to play but isn't their health more important? Besides players play through injuries all the time in the playoffs, they can suck it up for one game in the regular season. Besides its the players who help cheat the system that caused this in the first place so the players can bare some of the punishment as well.

[BigTed3]

9 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

The trouble is "healthy" isn't a binary thing. I mean Shea Weber was a beast for us all last playoffs and right afterwards we heard his career was over. Did he have a career ending injury in that Tampa series? No, he was just an injured player playing through it previously. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to place him on LTIR this year (you could see the argument "if he was healthy enough to play then and didn't get injured in the meantime, he should be healthy enough to play now").  Similarly, it's clear Stone's injury is legitimate, but it's also one he could play through if needed, and that "if needed" bar will be higher in the playoffs.

There's no great solution to this loophole. Any solution that involves the NHL forcing injured players to play because "well we think you could still play if you really wanted to" even if both them and their team want them to sit is a non-starter, as is any solution involving potentially punishing players for being injured. What could work is adjusting the LTIR rules or trying to somehow apply the salary cap to the playoffs (neither are simple solutions and would involve CBA changes, and it's not clear the NHL or NHLPA really care about this enough to bother). And Vegas is showing the risk of this strategy anyways.

Will Mark Stone truly be "recovered" at any point this season? Perhaps not (although if he's relatively healthy and wants to play, Vegas would have trouble shutting him down), but the biggest problem for Vegas right now may be they desperately need Mark Stone just to make the playoffs: sitting him until the playoffs isn't a good solution even if they can get away with it.

I suspect they kick this can down the road: they have plenty of injured players and may be able to play around with LTIR. At the point Stone or others need to return they may cross that bridge when they get to it.  The trade deadline sort of forced them to act, but now that they've crossed into the "player can't play for rest of the season" territory anyways, probably not a huge different in waiting a few more weeks.

 

 

7 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Another easy solution would be if a player ends the season on the IR they are ineligible for the playoffs. Boom done no more cap circumvention, cause they would have to be under the cap for the last game of the season.

Yeah, I actually think the solution is relatively simple. Players on LTIR don't count towards the cap, but regular injured players do (ie there's nothing saying you have to be healthy but you just shouldn't be allowed to be on LTIR to play in the post-season).

If you look at the AHL, they have a rule that if you're on an NHL roster at the 3PM NHL trade deadline, you are ineligible to play in the AHL playoffs. You have to be papered down to the AHL at that timepoint to be eligible. In the NFL, if you go on IR, you're done for the year (except for 1-2 recalls per team). So the NHL could very easily implement something similar... if the regular season ends say April 9 and the playoffs start Apr 14, then every team on Apr 10 has to set its playoff roster and activate any player off LTIR whom they plan on using in the post-season. As Campabee said, if you're not activated, you're out for the post-season. If you're activated, you don't need to play, but your salary does count against the cap. You also don't need to have a roster limit, and I would say teams could still put people on IR in the post-season and replace them with call-ups as they do in the regular season, but once you go on IR in the post-season you're done for the year. If your injury is not bad enough and you're only expected to be out 2 games, the team has to find a way to work around that and they can still recall players, but they need to remain cap-compliant. It forces teams to have a reserve of cheaper players to be able to recall. The whole issue of players being ready right for the playoffs is a huge loophole that clearly allows for circumvention of the spirit of the cap and creates an unequal playing field. It need to be changed.

[campabee82]

6 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Yeah, I actually think the solution is relatively simple. Players on LTIR don't count towards the cap, but regular injured players do (ie there's nothing saying you have to be healthy but you just shouldn't be allowed to be on LTIR to play in the post-season).

If you look at the AHL, they have a rule that if you're on an NHL roster at the 3PM NHL trade deadline, you are ineligible to play in the AHL playoffs. You have to be papered down to the AHL at that timepoint to be eligible. In the NFL, if you go on IR, you're done for the year (except for 1-2 recalls per team). So the NHL could very easily implement something similar... if the regular season ends say April 9 and the playoffs start Apr 14, then every team on Apr 10 has to set its playoff roster and activate any player off LTIR whom they plan on using in the post-season. As Campabee said, if you're not activated, you're out for the post-season. If you're activated, you don't need to play, but your salary does count against the cap. You also don't need to have a roster limit, and I would say teams could still put people on IR in the post-season and replace them with call-ups as they do in the regular season, but once you go on IR in the post-season you're done for the year. If your injury is not bad enough and you're only expected to be out 2 games, the team has to find a way to work around that and they can still recall players, but they need to remain cap-compliant. It forces teams to have a reserve of cheaper players to be able to recall. The whole issue of players being ready right for the playoffs is a huge loophole that clearly allows for circumvention of the spirit of the cap and creates an unequal playing field. It need to be changed.

Exactly

[electron58]

On 3/23/2022 at 5:36 PM, H_T_L said:

The Dadonov trade is voided

NHL Evgenii Dadonov Anaheim Ducks Vegas Golden Knights - TSN.ca

Does this screw up Vegas's plans to re activate their injured star players??

Evgenii Dadonov, scores a goal and adds 2 assists in Vegas' 6-1 win over Nashville tonight.. How's that for a statement!