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2 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

Hockey Hall of Fame members Guy Lafleur, Lanny McDonald and Kim St-Pierre were named Wednesday to the Order of Hockey in Canada as Distinguished Honorees for 2022.

Not sure what that means but Guy Lafleur was my favourite player growing up. 

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Frank Seravelli reporting the Canes are close to negotiating a long-term deal with Jesperi Kotkaniemi. Again, I see no way this is going to be 6M plus again, so it likely comes in around 4M AAV, which means he'll have been on a similar AAV to Dvorak if you add up his entire stay with the Canes. We'll find out soon enough if this is true.

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Frank Seravelli reporting the Canes are close to negotiating a long-term deal with Jesperi Kotkaniemi. Again, I see no way this is going to be 6M plus again, so it likely comes in around 4M AAV, which means he'll have been on a similar AAV to Dvorak if you add up his entire stay with the Canes. We'll find out soon enough if this is true.

Andy Strickland reporting it'll be an 8-year deal coming in at around 4.25-4.5M AAV. That's a pretty great deal for Carolina. JK will almost certainly take over a 2nd or 3rd line center role in the next year or two, and he's locked up through his entire prime now on a cost-controlled deal. That means that including this season, Carolina will have signed Kotkaniemi for 9 years for somewhere between 4.45 to 4.7M AAV.

For a guy who was younger than Dvorak with better advanced stats and a higher ceiling, that certainly seems like he was the better option. The two players will be signed on near-identical AAV deals and have their contracts end at roughly the same age. And with the cap likely to be higher in a few years, Kotkaniemi's deal will actually represent a lower percentage of the cap over the course of his deal than Dvorak's.

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9 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Andy Strickland reporting it'll be an 8-year deal coming in at around 4.25-4.5M AAV. That's a pretty great deal for Carolina. JK will almost certainly take over a 2nd or 3rd line center role in the next year or two, and he's locked up through his entire prime now on a cost-controlled deal. That means that including this season, Carolina will have signed Kotkaniemi for 9 years for somewhere between 4.45 to 4.7M AAV.

For a guy who was younger than Dvorak with better advanced stats and a higher ceiling, that certainly seems like he was the better option. The two players will be signed on near-identical AAV deals and have their contracts end at roughly the same age. And with the cap likely to be higher in a few years, Kotkaniemi's deal will actually represent a lower percentage of the cap over the course of his deal than Dvorak's.

And if he had waited a year he probably could of got at least that (as long as his play shown it) here. With MB letting Danault walk JK was already slotted in as #2 center this season. Nice it worked out for him as what he has done so far 4.5 is about all he has earned. That said he may of been able to get more staying here as we were in a position of need. Where Carolina is negotiating with strength because they don't have to have him. 

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32 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

And if he had waited a year he probably could of got at least that (as long as his play shown it) here. With MB letting Danault walk JK was already slotted in as #2 center this season. Nice it worked out for him as what he has done so far 4.5 is about all he has earned. That said he may of been able to get more staying here as we were in a position of need. Where Carolina is negotiating with strength because they don't have to have him. 

Absolutely. This is a great deal for Carolina and not a fantastic one for Kotkaniemi. Worst-case scenario for Carolina is that they end up with a center who has good defensive play, strong possession metrics, and a mediocre amount of offence, which is what they already have. On the open market, they'd probably pay 3.5-3.75M to pick up that kind of player. So in this case, they're overpaying slightly but not by a ton. Best case scenario for them is that he gets a bigger role and better linemates going forward and fulfills his potential of being a 50-60 point player or better, and in that case they're getting a player they would have had to pay 6M+ to for his prime years. Remembering JK is only 21 and that he hasn't really been given optimal opportunity in his career, there's lots of room to grow there. According to JFresh, JK is only in the 12th percentile for strength of linemates, so he's clearly playing with bad players and not getting a lot of ice time.

Now contrast that to Dvorak, who is older and who we'll be paying the same thing to for the next few years, who has worse advanced metrics, and who has already been getting big ice time and stronger linemates his entire career. There is much less room to grow there. We'll have gotten Dvorak for 4 years and Carolina will have gotten JK for 9, and both contracts will be done by the time the players are 30. And to boot, we gave up better draft picks to go and get Dvorak. This is the situation I predicted would evolve - that Carolina was going to make a play for a long-term deal with JK and try to lock him up under market value with a very low chance they were ever going to re-sign him to anything close to the 6.1M they needed to offer to pry him away on an offersheet. Masterful GM'ing in Carolina, and Bergevin got played 100%. When you look at this from the Mtl perspective, either Bergevin should have been able to negotiate a similar deal last off-season or else he had already blown it by alienating and mistreating the player.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Absolutely. This is a great deal for Carolina and not a fantastic one for Kotkaniemi. Worst-case scenario for Carolina is that they end up with a center who has good defensive play, strong possession metrics, and a mediocre amount of offence, which is what they already have. On the open market, they'd probably pay 3.5-3.75M to pick up that kind of player. So in this case, they're overpaying slightly but not by a ton. Best case scenario for them is that he gets a bigger role and better linemates going forward and fulfills his potential of being a 50-60 point player or better, and in that case they're getting a player they would have had to pay 6M+ to for his prime years. Remembering JK is only 21 and that he hasn't really been given optimal opportunity in his career, there's lots of room to grow there. According to JFresh, JK is only in the 12th percentile for strength of linemates, so he's clearly playing with bad players and not getting a lot of ice time.

Now contrast that to Dvorak, who is older and who we'll be paying the same thing to for the next few years, who has worse advanced metrics, and who has already been getting big ice time and stronger linemates his entire career. There is much less room to grow there. We'll have gotten Dvorak for 4 years and Carolina will have gotten JK for 9, and both contracts will be done by the time the players are 30. And to boot, we gave up better draft picks to go and get Dvorak. This is the situation I predicted would evolve - that Carolina was going to make a play for a long-term deal with JK and try to lock him up under market value with a very low chance they were ever going to re-sign him to anything close to the 6.1M they needed to offer to pry him away on an offersheet. Masterful GM'ing in Carolina, and Bergevin got played 100%. When you look at this from the Mtl perspective, either Bergevin should have been able to negotiate a similar deal last off-season or else he had already blown it by alienating and mistreating the player.

No doubt. MB was never going to offer JK anything similar to what he‘ll likely get now. It’s water under the bridge but his intention was clearly to bridge him with some sort of low-ball offer, so Carolina jumped in and took advantage. Then MB went on to throw silly money with term at guys like Savard and Hoffman. Yeah, let’s add more depth Dmen and 2nd string wingers without ever fixing what this team needed most. Glad he‘s finally gone and we can move on from all this. He totally dropped the ball in this situation, it‘s as simple as that. 

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Absolutely. This is a great deal for Carolina and not a fantastic one for Kotkaniemi. Worst-case scenario for Carolina is that they end up with a center who has good defensive play, strong possession metrics, and a mediocre amount of offence, which is what they already have. On the open market, they'd probably pay 3.5-3.75M to pick up that kind of player. So in this case, they're overpaying slightly but not by a ton. Best case scenario for them is that he gets a bigger role and better linemates going forward and fulfills his potential of being a 50-60 point player or better, and in that case they're getting a player they would have had to pay 6M+ to for his prime years. Remembering JK is only 21 and that he hasn't really been given optimal opportunity in his career, there's lots of room to grow there. According to JFresh, JK is only in the 12th percentile for strength of linemates, so he's clearly playing with bad players and not getting a lot of ice time.

Now contrast that to Dvorak, who is older and who we'll be paying the same thing to for the next few years, who has worse advanced metrics, and who has already been getting big ice time and stronger linemates his entire career. There is much less room to grow there. We'll have gotten Dvorak for 4 years and Carolina will have gotten JK for 9, and both contracts will be done by the time the players are 30. And to boot, we gave up better draft picks to go and get Dvorak. This is the situation I predicted would evolve - that Carolina was going to make a play for a long-term deal with JK and try to lock him up under market value with a very low chance they were ever going to re-sign him to anything close to the 6.1M they needed to offer to pry him away on an offersheet. Masterful GM'ing in Carolina, and Bergevin got played 100%. When you look at this from the Mtl perspective, either Bergevin should have been able to negotiate a similar deal last off-season or else he had already blown it by alienating and mistreating the player.

At the time I don't remember anyone saying we better match Carolina and wanting to pay JK 6 Million. Knowing that dep[ending on how he played it could effect all the contracts coming up in the future. Did JK ask the HABS to renegotiate a long term friendlier contract? It did say reported? Has this contract been signed yet? Has JK agreed to this? Or will we see that he actualy thinks he's a 6million dollar man. Because he can refuse this as it isn't a qualifier of the same amount.

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5 hours ago, ChiLla said:

No doubt. MB was never going to offer JK anything similar to what he‘ll likely get now. It’s water under the bridge but his intention was clearly to bridge him with some sort of low-ball offer, so Carolina jumped in and took advantage. Then MB went on to throw silly money with term at guys like Savard and Hoffman. Yeah, let’s add more depth Dmen and 2nd string wingers without ever fixing what this team needed most. Glad he‘s finally gone and we can move on from all this. He totally dropped the ball in this situation, it‘s as simple as that. 

I still don't remember anyone saying we should of paid JK 6million last year and that was the offer. Also he hadn't earned what he is getting yet. If he thought he was so mistreated boo hoo! A spoiled kid making not enough millions because he hadn't earned it yet? Really 

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57 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

At the time I don't remember anyone saying we better match Carolina and wanting to pay JK 6 Million. Knowing that dep[ending on how he played it could effect all the contracts coming up in the future. Did JK ask the HABS to renegotiate a long term friendlier contract? It did say reported? Has this contract been signed yet? Has JK agreed to this? Or will we see that he actualy thinks he's a 6million dollar man. Because he can refuse this as it isn't a qualifier of the same amount.

I would have matched the 6.1M. Said it then, still saying it now. I know others said the same as me here... there were only three probable outcomes to JK's season and a future contract:

- He excelled, rose up the line-up and earned a long-term deal at 6-7M, but in this case, he would have proven to Carolina that he could play as a 2C and they'd be paying for what they got

- He played down the line-up behind Carolina's depth and signed a long-term deal but at a lower AAV than the 6.1M. This is in effect what happened and was the most likely scenario.

- He played down the line-up or played not so great and wanted to take another short deal to prove he was worth more longer-term or decided to walk altogether.

In none of these cases was Carolina locked in to paying JK something he wasn't worth. There was a lot of criticism for the deal as "Carolina is overpaying Kotkaniemi and he's not worth that" but it was always a one-year deal with no long-term risk, and the AAV was purposely high in order to force the offersheet to work. If Carolina had offered him 4.5M last year, the Habs would have matched it. They overpaid for one year to get their guy, and now they've got a player with great potential locked up long-term. As I said, it's entirely possible he doesn't grow that much more but worst-case scenario for Carolina is that they're slightly overpaying for a 3C like Eller. Heck, Seattle just signed Jared McCann to a 5 year deal for a 5M AAV, and he's already 25 and while he has slightly better career numbers than Kotkaniemi, his ceiling isn't as high. Another comparable would be Sean Couturier, who signed with Philly in 2016 for 6 years at an AAV of 4.3M. At the time, he was 23 and had never scored more than 15 goals in a season. But since signing, he got more opportunity and has put up a couple of 30-goal seasons in addition to being a responsible defensive center. I think most would say Couturier has been a relative bargain for Philly.

At the end of the day, Carolina took a gamble but it's a high-reward gamble and I think that's what you need to do do build a successful team around younger players.

 

 

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9 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I still don't remember anyone saying we should of paid JK 6million last year and that was the offer. Also he hadn't earned what he is getting yet. If he thought he was so mistreated boo hoo! A spoiled kid making not enough millions because he hadn't earned it yet? Really 

There were enough people saying we should have matched. Lots of people were on the fence. It was a 1-year deal we could have fit under the cap. Of course he wasn’t worth the 6M at the time but that was the entire idea behind the move, that’s how you take advantage of offer sheets. Bergevin got schooled, he lost the former 3OA pick for way below market value and tried to fix his mistake by overpaying for Dvorak. I don’t see how we come out of this as winners, this is really poor management and it‘s one of the reasons why he was shown the door.

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JK.
 

If he turns into a 80 to 100 point player then I guess he’s one of the VERY few ( I can’t remember many ) Montreal Canadiens 1 st picks that developed into a superstar .  

if he’s a 50 - 60 pt player, oh well , he wasn’t going to be a game changer - they’ll find someone else 

 

good bye 

Im not disappointed at all

 

 

 

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Here is my take on KK, he was not worth over 6 million plus never was and may never be... Dorvak, in my oppinion was a better player and still is, he  just came into a very bad situation this season. You can be in Arizona on a crap team because no one cares, you cannot be on a bad team in Montreal because everybody cares, and who do the media go after the newbies... 

If JK gets around 4 million per year it may be worth it for Carolina, still a risk,   he still has time to develop, his game through the first 5 NHL seasons though does not even warrant 4 million. If its around 5 million which I am hearing as well at 8 years. That could really backfire on them. I would be leary paying that kind on money and term for a player that is in their 5th NHL season and playing 12 minutes a game. You would think by now he would be pushing some other players down the lineup - but that's not the case, just last game i think he played 9 minutes, least amount of ice time on his team.

I could only imagine what I would be hearing now, if we had signed JK for 6 plus million. And then watched him walk at season end, becuase I can pretty much gauranteed he would have, playing in Montreal being paid 6 plus million likely at a 10 goal pace on this habs team this season, he would have been driven out of town anyway and we would have nothing to show for it.

Back to Davorak, as much as I disliked Bergie and was sooooo glad to see him go, the choice he made in this scenario was the right choice in my opinion. I still think Davorak is a better player even if it ends up being at the same money. He just came into a crappy situation. 

 

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3 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

Here is my take on KK, he was not worth over 6 million plus never was and may never be... Dorvak, in my oppinion was a better player and still is, he  just came into a very bad situation this season. You can be in Arizona on a crap team because no one cares, you cannot be on a bad team in Montreal because everybody cares, and who do the media go after the newbies... 

If JK gets around 4 million per year it may be worth it for Carolina, still a risk,   he still has time to develop, his game through the first 5 NHL seasons though does not even warrant 4 million. If its around 5 million which I am hearing as well at 8 years. That could really backfire on them. I would be leary paying that kind on money and term for a player that is in their 5th NHL season and playing 12 minutes a game. You would think by now he would be pushing some other players down the lineup - but that's not the case, just last game i think he played 9 minutes, least amount of ice time on his team.

I could only imagine what I would be hearing now, if we had signed JK for 6 plus million. And then watched him walk at season end, becuase I can pretty much gauranteed he would have, playing in Montreal being paid 6 plus million likely at a 10 goal pace on this habs team this season, he would have been driven out of town anyway and we would have nothing to show for it.

Back to Davorak, as much as I disliked Bergie and was sooooo glad to see him go, the choice he made in this scenario was the right choice in my opinion. I still think Davorak is a better player even if it ends up being at the same money. He just came into a crappy situation. 

 

I agree and how could he have lost JK at below market value when he was being paid 6 million? He wasn't then and isn't know worth 6 million. Did Carolina know he would resign for a lot less no. It could end up okay for Carolina but at 8 years for what he has been playing minutes wise and production wise. In Montreal and this forum would of exploded if we locked him up that long without seeing more. People are whining about Gallaghers contract and he put up 30+ goal years and played hard every game he played. Another one of paying for "hopefull" potential. Lehks has been steady and proven and the same are crying about his contract? It may work out and Carolina doesn't have to count on it too because they have a good team. If they end up buying him out in a couple years their fans won't go crazy!

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I would also add  to the above, if anyone thinks JK is worth  4 plus million after seeing him play 5 NHL season, well your paying for hope, not for performance.

A player like Lekonen, right now is one of the best two way players in the game, only 5 years older then KK, and even though he has not been an offensive dynamo, still had better offensive numbers through his first 5 years in the league then JK . And we don't have to discuss the defensive game is currently at 2.3 cap hit.

Lekonen is worth 4.2 to 4.5, 5 years 

JK has not earned that yet, so you paying for pontential not game

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On 3/11/2022 at 10:27 PM, BigTed3 said:

Andy Strickland reporting it'll be an 8-year deal coming in at around 4.25-4.5M AAV. That's a pretty great deal for Carolina. JK will almost certainly take over a 2nd or 3rd line center role in the next year or two, and he's locked up through his entire prime now on a cost-controlled deal. That means that including this season, Carolina will have signed Kotkaniemi for 9 years for somewhere between 4.45 to 4.7M AAV.

For a guy who was younger than Dvorak with better advanced stats and a higher ceiling, that certainly seems like he was the better option. The two players will be signed on near-identical AAV deals and have their contracts end at roughly the same age. And with the cap likely to be higher in a few years, Kotkaniemi's deal will actually represent a lower percentage of the cap over the course of his deal than Dvorak's.

People often compare Dvorak to KK we also lost Dano due to our last GM so not really sure the comparisons are fair. Still want to see Dvorak play for MSL before I decide how I feel about it all.

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I honestly don't care about Kotkaniemi, he may or may not turn into a good player. He's not with us anymore so whatever. He got that offer sheet and hey, good for him. I would have signed it as well. What I do care about, however, is how Bergevin completely messed this up from a management perspective. This isn't about Lehkonen (huh?) or Dvorak coming into a very bad situation this season (the very same situation Lehkonen is having a career year in by the way). Fact ist that the 3rd overall pick in itself has tremendous value and JK just came out of his entry level deal. There was talk about him+ being potentially traded for Dubois last season. Lots of people didn't like it at the time... just saying. The point is that we lost a very valuable asset in JK for peanuts and had to pay up to "replace" him. The replacement didn't work out so far and he doesn't seem to be overly interested in being a Montreal Canadien in general. In fact, he doesn't seem to be overly interested in anything that happens on the ice really. Sorry if that's unfair, maybe it's just his personality, but he's clearly not going to have a lot of fans in Montreal. If that's a situation you guys are happy with, cool, good for you. I'm not, we should have done better. Much better.

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31 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

People often compare Dvorak to KK we also lost Dano due to our last GM so not really sure the comparisons are fair. Still want to see Dvorak play for MSL before I decide how I feel about it all.

 

25 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

I honestly don't care about Kotkaniemi, he may or may not turn into a good player. He's not with us anymore so whatever. He got that offer sheet and hey, good for him. I would have signed it as well. What I do care about, however, is how Bergevin completely messed this up from a management perspective. This isn't about Lehkonen (huh?) or Dvorak coming into a very bad situation this season (the very same situation Lehkonen is having a career year in by the way). Fact ist that the 3rd overall pick in itself has tremendous value and JK just came out of his entry level deal. There was talk about him+ being potentially traded for Dubois last season. Lots of people didn't like it at the time... just saying. The point is that we lost a very valuable asset in JK for peanuts and had to pay up to "replace" him. The replacement didn't work out so far and he doesn't seem to be overly interested in being a Montreal Canadien in general. In fact, he doesn't seem to be overly interested in anything that happens on the ice really. Sorry if that's unfair, maybe it's just his personality, but he's clearly not going to have a lot of fans in Montreal. If that's a situation you guys are happy with, cool, good for you. I'm not, we should have done better. Much better.

I also want to see what Dvorak, Drouin, and Savard among others do with MSL. I think it couldn't hurt and might boost their trade values.

With respect to JK, I'll say what I said about other guys who were dealt... sure they're gone, but seeing what happens to them is part of the ongoing evaluation process of how we did and helps to teach us what to do or not do in the future. It's still a learning tool. Should we give more or less chance to younger players? How do we approach contract negotiations? Why did this offer sheet work to go through and can we apply this to make one successful in the future? What did we learn about how to negotiate contracts? What caused JK to not want to sign here and how do we prevent this from happening again? The entire thing is a teaching moment and the more information we get the better.

As for Dvorak, agreed that his attitude early in the season seemed to stink. No apparent passion or excitement in his game. Now maybe that's just his personality but if he's non-chalant like that around his teammates and doesn't care about winning or losing, he won't last long, especially in Montreal. I think he's better than what he's shown here, and I'd like to see how he does in a better environment, because that certainly helped the likes of Petry and Caufield. But he's not going to get long to prove his worth and he had better step up. And regardless of his attitude, the whole trade-off of giving up JK to add Dvorak and lose pick value in the process was horrible.

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

I also want to see what Dvorak, Drouin, and Savard among others do with MSL. I think it couldn't hurt and might boost their trade values.

With respect to JK, I'll say what I said about other guys who were dealt... sure they're gone, but seeing what happens to them is part of the ongoing evaluation process of how we did and helps to teach us what to do or not do in the future. It's still a learning tool. Should we give more or less chance to younger players? How do we approach contract negotiations? Why did this offer sheet work to go through and can we apply this to make one successful in the future? What did we learn about how to negotiate contracts? What caused JK to not want to sign here and how do we prevent this from happening again? The entire thing is a teaching moment and the more information we get the better.

As for Dvorak, agreed that his attitude early in the season seemed to stink. No apparent passion or excitement in his game. Now maybe that's just his personality but if he's non-chalant like that around his teammates and doesn't care about winning or losing, he won't last long, especially in Montreal. I think he's better than what he's shown here, and I'd like to see how he does in a better environment, because that certainly helped the likes of Petry and Caufield. But he's not going to get long to prove his worth and he had better step up. And regardless of his attitude, the whole trade-off of giving up JK to add Dvorak and lose pick value in the process was horrible.

We have a whole new front office and new people scouting for us there is only one or two holdovers so I would expect they are going to form their own opinions on what to do with drafting and asset management and from what we have seen so far it is a fresh new perspective! as for Dvorak whose skates is he filling? Dano's or KK's? I would argue he is replacing Dano and we just never did replace KK.  Dano was the #1 or #2 center and KK was treated like a spare part even if we saw him as more he was never really given a solid role here and he is a fourth line player most nights in Carolina while Dvorak is probably our #2 center right or wrong as for our perception of his attitude as long as he gets along with the team it is all good. I liked KK I will wait an see if he ever does develop into a great player he is not getting as much ice this year as he used to here just more money.

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Latest rumour has the contract at 4.82 M/yr (a silly Carolina play on his # 82) for 8 years + 6.1 M for this year so KK for 9 yrs @ 4.962 M/yr. I wonder what the pundits would have said if MB had signed him for those numbers. I will be surprised if Carolina actually gives JK  that much but stranger things have happened when ego meets ego with potential trumping performance. Earlier reports had the offer at 4.25 to 4.5 M which is still too much but thankfully that is Carolina's problem not ours.

 

 

 

 

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