Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

Former & Retired Habs


kinot-2
 Share

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

I actually agree about not rushing the development. That said if he was still here in Montreal and was being used as a forth line center 'most" would be saying that Montreal is ruining his development!. It's so contrary when another team has players stay down the line up and are sheltered and that team is doing it great, but if we hold a young player back don't give them top line minutes and put on PP or even with the other players they need to be with,  just because of draft position , then we're doing it all wrong! 

 

5 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I think part of the problem has been our lack of coaching and our lack of winger talent.  If you had JK as our 4th line centre with guys like Ylonen and Poehling as his wingers im not sure as many (there would always be a few) would think his development would be hurt but when you play an offensive centre with pylons like Weiss or Cousins i can see the criticism.  In Carolina he has the luxury of playing 4th line minutes with Domi and Stepan - both of whom may be past their prime but both are still skilled players...  

The differences as I see it:

- Carolina has already committed to the player long-term. They've said we believe in you, we have a long-term vision, so be patient. Montreal be it with Eller, Galchenyuk, Subban, Kotkaniemi, Pacioretty in his first stint here, etc. was always about proving you can be a scorer in a lesser role to earn your promotion, not considering that failure to produce playing 4th line minutes with 4th line players doesn't mean a guy can't produce when given the right opportunity. Montreal under Bergevin never tried to give players confidence to improve, and numerous players have said that upon leaving Montreal: that you would make a mistake, end up in the press box, and no one would tell you why you were punished and not someone else nor explain what they wanted you to do to get better. And not just rookies, we heard this recently from Kulak about Ducharme. We heard this from Briere and Parenteau and Eller and others. So I think communication and expectations have been different.

- What is the alternative in each case? To me, it makes sense to play Kotkaniemi behind Aho and Trocheck. Those are two strong centers. Here, we played Desharnais as a 1C and even when the guy had something like a 40-game goalless streak, he stayed there and Galchenyuk and Eller never got the chance to supplant him. We gave Danault the best wingers despite poor production most of the time too. We played Kotkaniemi behind Eric Staal, even when the latter looked awful. Back in the day, we gave opportunity to players like Travis Moen, Mike Blunden, and Dwight King in more offensive roles while the likes of D'Agostino, Andrighetto, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Hudon, and others with more potential got no such chance. We played Francis Bouillon and Douglass Murray and David Schlemko and Karl Alzner and Jon Merrill ahead of younger players like Beaulieu, Pateryn, Tinordi, Romanov, and others. I think as a young player you understand you're going to have to earn your chance to displace an Andrei Markov or an Alex Kovalev in their prime and that a few games of solid play is not going to change that. But if you see a player like Moen or Alzner or Staal ahead of you in the line-up repeatedly despite the fact you're outplaying them, you're going to get frustrated with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

The differences as I see it:

- Carolina has already committed to the player long-term. They've said we believe in you, we have a long-term vision, so be patient. Montreal be it with Eller, Galchenyuk, Subban, Kotkaniemi, Pacioretty in his first stint here, etc. was always about proving you can be a scorer in a lesser role to earn your promotion, not considering that failure to produce playing 4th line minutes with 4th line players doesn't mean a guy can't produce when given the right opportunity. Montreal under Bergevin never tried to give players confidence to improve, and numerous players have said that upon leaving Montreal: that you would make a mistake, end up in the press box, and no one would tell you why you were punished and not someone else nor explain what they wanted you to do to get better. And not just rookies, we heard this recently from Kulak about Ducharme. We heard this from Briere and Parenteau and Eller and others. So I think communication and expectations have been different.

- What is the alternative in each case? To me, it makes sense to play Kotkaniemi behind Aho and Trocheck. Those are two strong centers. Here, we played Desharnais as a 1C and even when the guy had something like a 40-game goalless streak, he stayed there and Galchenyuk and Eller never got the chance to supplant him. We gave Danault the best wingers despite poor production most of the time too. We played Kotkaniemi behind Eric Staal, even when the latter looked awful. Back in the day, we gave opportunity to players like Travis Moen, Mike Blunden, and Dwight King in more offensive roles while the likes of D'Agostino, Andrighetto, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Hudon, and others with more potential got no such chance. We played Francis Bouillon and Douglass Murray and David Schlemko and Karl Alzner and Jon Merrill ahead of younger players like Beaulieu, Pateryn, Tinordi, Romanov, and others. I think as a young player you understand you're going to have to earn your chance to displace an Andrei Markov or an Alex Kovalev in their prime and that a few games of solid play is not going to change that. But if you see a player like Moen or Alzner or Staal ahead of you in the line-up repeatedly despite the fact you're outplaying them, you're going to get frustrated with that.

Yup. And we were going that way with Caufield until MSL took over.    Suzuki was relegated to the 4th line as a RW to start his time here!  He made it work but a lot of players can't. That doesnt mean they arent good players.   

We've talked about this before: rather than saying "a great player will make anything work" maybe its time to say "what can we do to make this player play his best."  Like by all means try trading a guy like Drouin or Hoffman but if we cant and we're essentially stuck with them now, so lets see if we can make them useful players - and who knows, if you still want to move them, maybe you can after that! Revolutionary concept after watching MB & co devalue so many of our assets. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yup. And we were going that way with Caufield until MSL took over.    Suzuki was relegated to the 4th line as a RW to start his time here!  He made it work but a lot of players can't. That doesnt mean they arent good players.   

We've talked about this before: rather than saying "a great player will make anything work" maybe its time to say "what can we do to make this player play his best."  Like by all means try trading a guy like Drouin or Hoffman but if we cant and we're essentially stuck with them now, so lets see if we can make them useful players - and who knows, if you still want to move them, maybe you can after that! Revolutionary concept after watching MB & co devalue so many of our assets. 

Yeah, Caufield is a great example of where approach/coaching made a huge difference. I could say Romanov was the same and maybe Harris (we don't know how he would have been treated under a Ducharme or a Therrien). Caufield was awful to start the year. He didn't produce, he wasn't getting chances, and he was clearly frustrated. But he was also put in a position where he wouldn't break out of that easily. He was being shuffled around the line-up, he wasn't being played with talented enough players to complement him, and he didn't have the confidence of his coach to play his style of game. Instead he was being told to follow the "system" and play the same way that a Gallagher or an Armia might play. Everyone play hard and go to the net and dump the puck in and back-check. If we had just stopped right there 40 games into the year, we would have concluded that CC was "not earning the right to get another shot in the top 6." But then comes MSL and he says, well Caufield is actually a talented player and he's not going to be able to show his talents as a goal scorer if he has Alex Belzile and Ryan Poehling as linemates and he's getting 9 minutes a game. So what does he do? He puts him in position to succeed, and the guy plays the rest of the year at just about a 50-goal pace. Now not every player will do that, but the point is that you can't just stick a Galchenyuk or Kotkaniemi on the 4th line with bums for linemates and complain that they're not producing like a top 6 player. Guys who play the game like Armia and Lehkonen and Pezzetta might be better-suited for those roles of grinding, being intense, forechecking, playing good defence, and getting the energy up, but they're unlikely to have sustained success being asked to play the top line and play the PP, and likewise, the young Caufield's, Ylonen's, Pacioretty's, and Hudon's of the world aren't going to show what they've got being asked to play a style of game they're not suited for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Yeah, Caufield is a great example of where approach/coaching made a huge difference. I could say Romanov was the same and maybe Harris (we don't know how he would have been treated under a Ducharme or a Therrien). Caufield was awful to start the year. He didn't produce, he wasn't getting chances, and he was clearly frustrated. But he was also put in a position where he wouldn't break out of that easily. He was being shuffled around the line-up, he wasn't being played with talented enough players to complement him, and he didn't have the confidence of his coach to play his style of game. Instead he was being told to follow the "system" and play the same way that a Gallagher or an Armia might play. Everyone play hard and go to the net and dump the puck in and back-check. If we had just stopped right there 40 games into the year, we would have concluded that CC was "not earning the right to get another shot in the top 6." But then comes MSL and he says, well Caufield is actually a talented player and he's not going to be able to show his talents as a goal scorer if he has Alex Belzile and Ryan Poehling as linemates and he's getting 9 minutes a game. So what does he do? He puts him in position to succeed, and the guy plays the rest of the year at just about a 50-goal pace. Now not every player will do that, but the point is that you can't just stick a Galchenyuk or Kotkaniemi on the 4th line with bums for linemates and complain that they're not producing like a top 6 player. Guys who play the game like Armia and Lehkonen and Pezzetta might be better-suited for those roles of grinding, being intense, forechecking, playing good defence, and getting the energy up, but they're unlikely to have sustained success being asked to play the top line and play the PP, and likewise, the young Caufield's, Ylonen's, Pacioretty's, and Hudon's of the world aren't going to show what they've got being asked to play a style of game they're not suited for.

So then Carolina is ruining JK's development sticking him on the forth line with limited minutes and not playing with the Aho's ect.?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

So then Carolina is ruining JK's development sticking him on the forth line with limited minutes and not playing with the Aho's ect.?

Gave my answer to this question above, but to a certain degree, yes I'm sure JK would be better-served by being a 2C with better wingers. When the team had injuries, he got to play a bit higher up the line-up and did well for that stint. But I also think their rationale for playing him down is a bit different than what the Habs did. JK behind Aho/Trocheck/J. Staal makes a bit more sense than JK behind E. Staal, Evans, a struggling Danault, and/or Paul Byron playing out of position at center.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Joel Bouchard and his assistants all relieved of their duties by the Ducks' AHL affiliate.

oops.  guess the move wasnt a great career choice for JB - although i think he had a fundamental difference of opinion from management. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, maas_art said:

oops.  guess the move wasnt a great career choice for JB - although i think he had a fundamental difference of opinion from management. 

 

 

Well he was hired by Murray, who was then fired, so the guy who wanted him was gone...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hm... let's sign him as an assistant coach then. I was sad to see him go at the time, maybe he's interested in coming back and working with St. Louis in the NHL? It could work out well for both guys and would give us a similar tandem we already have in Gorton and Hughes at the top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Hm... let's sign him as an assistant coach then. I was sad to see him go at the time, maybe he's interested in coming back and working with St. Louis in the NHL? It could work out well for both guys and would give us a similar tandem we already have in Gorton and Hughes at the top.

Its an interesting idea.  It would be a promotion for Bouchard so he might well accept, but in the back of my mind i cant get the Dale Weiss stuff out of my head.  Bouchard always said the right things to the media & i was also sad to see him go but Weiss who is usually considered a great teammate and a guy who will do whatever it takes to win was very critical of Bouchard and his treatment of young players.  He's spoken about it a few times on his podcast.  I dont think its a case of Weiss just being salty

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Its an interesting idea.  It would be a promotion for Bouchard so he might well accept, but in the back of my mind i cant get the Dale Weiss stuff out of my head.  Bouchard always said the right things to the media & i was also sad to see him go but Weiss who is usually considered a great teammate and a guy who will do whatever it takes to win was very critical of Bouchard and his treatment of young players.  He's spoken about it a few times on his podcast.  I dont think its a case of Weiss just being salty

I remember that as well.

I'd rather just steer clear of re-treads and look elsewhere for coaching needs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Its an interesting idea.  It would be a promotion for Bouchard so he might well accept, but in the back of my mind i cant get the Dale Weiss stuff out of my head.  Bouchard always said the right things to the media & i was also sad to see him go but Weiss who is usually considered a great teammate and a guy who will do whatever it takes to win was very critical of Bouchard and his treatment of young players.  He's spoken about it a few times on his podcast.  I dont think its a case of Weiss just being salty

 

24 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I remember that as well.

I'd rather just steer clear of re-treads and look elsewhere for coaching needs.

 

True, Weise was quite elaborate about what was going on in Laval with younger players especially and I also didn't get the impression that it was because of hurt feelings or anything like that. Maybe not the best idea after all, as that style of coaching doesn't really seem to fit with what Gorton and Hughes are trying to put in place in terms of culture. It could still make sense to install an assistant coach with a little more coaching background/experience to help St. Louis, but it's probably not going to be easy to find the right guy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, maas_art said:

Its an interesting idea.  It would be a promotion for Bouchard so he might well accept, but in the back of my mind i cant get the Dale Weiss stuff out of my head.  Bouchard always said the right things to the media & i was also sad to see him go but Weiss who is usually considered a great teammate and a guy who will do whatever it takes to win was very critical of Bouchard and his treatment of young players.  He's spoken about it a few times on his podcast.  I dont think its a case of Weiss just being salty

Same here he pretty much felt he was a bad seed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Canadiens GM Kent Hughes dealt away four key players ahead of this year’s NHL trade deadline, looking to improve his team for the future.

Tyler Toffoli went to the Calgary Flames, Ben Chiarot to the Florida Panthers, Artturi Lehkonen to the Colorado Avalanche and Brett Kulak to the Edmonton Oilers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

New Canadiens GM Kent Hughes dealt away four key players ahead of this year’s NHL trade deadline, looking to improve his team for the future.

Tyler Toffoli went to the Calgary Flames, Ben Chiarot to the Florida Panthers, Artturi Lehkonen to the Colorado Avalanche and Brett Kulak to the Edmonton Oilers.

Looks like the prelude to a bigger article?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

New Canadiens GM Kent Hughes dealt away four key players ahead of this year’s NHL trade deadline, looking to improve his team for the future.

Tyler Toffoli went to the Calgary Flames, Ben Chiarot to the Florida Panthers, Artturi Lehkonen to the Colorado Avalanche and Brett Kulak to the Edmonton Oilers.

All made it through to round two. Personally, I would love to see Lehkonen hoist the Cup!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, electron58 said:

Artturi Lehkonen scored twice, including the eventual winner, as the Colorado Avalanche take a 2-1 series lead against St. Louis Blues. It is Artturi's 4rth goal of these playoffs!

Love seeing Artturi having success in Colorado. I hope he wins a Cup!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With Florida going out, a lot of Panthers' fans are talking about how bad the Chiarot trade was for them. Many hated it then and they hate it even more now. Some of the stats on Chiarot from The Score:

- Worst 5v5 shot attempts against per ice time among D men on the team

- Worst 5v5 scoring chances against per ice time among D men on the team

- Worst PK shots and shot attempts against per ice time among D men on the team

- Worst PK scoring chances, high danger scoring chances, and expected goals against per ice time among D men on the team

So basically the stats showed he was putrid defensively. Fantastic for us that we were able to extract a 2023 1st for him from Florida, but I laughed at the way teams over-value grit at the trade deadline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chiarot taking the heat for Florida's high powered offense choking. Of course the spin is dependent on the agenda you wish to advance. Chiarot played well for us and protected some of our drama princesses who wouldn't stand up for themselves. I will not kick him while he is down and I hope he does well next year. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, RCAF48 said:

Chiarot taking the heat for Florida's high powered offense choking. Of course the spin is dependent on the agenda you wish to advance. Chiarot played well for us and protected some of our drama princesses who wouldn't stand up for themselves. I will not kick him while he is down and I hope he does well next year. 

Agreed completely, Giroux a trade deadline also didn't help them over the top with all the offense he supposed to bring. This was a "team" failure from Florida. All those times Chariot was on the ice and apparently failed, I didn't see mentioned any of the other players 3 or 4 others that were on the ice with him? Florida was in most of the games. Tampa has a strong team and the experience to know how to win and a goalie that when hot is like Price when hot. Yes we get you don't like Chariot because he's not an analytical darling of a player. That said I thought Florida had a lot of those types of players and they didn't win either? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/12/2022 at 10:21 AM, maas_art said:

Its an interesting idea.  It would be a promotion for Bouchard so he might well accept, but in the back of my mind i cant get the Dale Weiss stuff out of my head.  Bouchard always said the right things to the media & i was also sad to see him go but Weiss who is usually considered a great teammate and a guy who will do whatever it takes to win was very critical of Bouchard and his treatment of young players.  He's spoken about it a few times on his podcast.  I dont think its a case of Weiss just being salty

Weisse also said we should bring back Therrien as head coach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, RCAF48 said:

Chiarot taking the heat for Florida's high powered offense choking. Of course the spin is dependent on the agenda you wish to advance. Chiarot played well for us and protected some of our drama princesses who wouldn't stand up for themselves. I will not kick him while he is down and I hope he does well next year. 

agreed the panthers lost 2-0 and somehow thats chiarots fault what a joke. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...