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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

It will be interesting. Neither won a cup, both made it to one final, had similar stats but quite different games. 

I actually think Weber will get it and Subban may not (although Weber wont be eligible for several years after Subban because he isnt technically retired).   Subban won the Norris while Weber never did (runner up 3 times? robbed at least one of those) but as you mentioned, Subban is polarizing while Weber is the prototypical hockey "guy" so i can see him getting in, possibly first ballot. 

Watch them delay PK and then induct them both the same year ;) lol 

 

3 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

Subban also win the Norris in a shortened season when Karlson was hurt early on..After that I don't even think he was nominated again ? Also that year Markov was feeding him beautiful set up passes for the goals which weren't most on the PP.  Weber was consistent for years. Weber was also Captain where he went not a distraction. 

 

Subban was actually nominated for the Norris in 2015 as well as with Nashville in 2018. And while you can make an argument for Karlsson in 2013, you can likewise make an argument Subban should have won over Karlsson in 2015, and Subban has himself said the very same thing about both those years (that he was surprised to win in 2013 but felt he was deserving of a win in 2015).

I'm agreed with Jed that Weber has higher odds of getting into the HOF, just because of how he's perceived. I do think he's done enough in his career to earn that nod, but likewise I think Subban has done enough as well. As I said, it's very rare for a Norris winner to not be in the Hall and Subban was probably one of the top 3 D men in the game for a 6-7 year period. I think there's room in the HHOF for both players.

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Subban was a very good hockey player but IMO Suter was the best Dman in 2013 but the media voted trophy went to Subban. I was happy at the time that Subban won it but I don't place as much value on it as some when comparing Subban to Weber. They were both good at what they did but I will be surprised if either make the HHOF but I admit the standard for entry doesn't appear to be very high. I would give the edge to Weber with his International.record.

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11 hours ago, RCAF48 said:

Subban was a very good hockey player but IMO Suter was the best Dman in 2013 but the media voted trophy went to Subban. I was happy at the time that Subban won it but I don't place as much value on it as some when comparing Subban to Weber. They were both good at what they did but I will be surprised if either make the HHOF but I admit the standard for entry doesn't appear to be very high. I would give the edge to Weber with his International.record.

And the thing is, you can probably make a case for a few players for many of the awards each year. If Suter or Karlsson or Subban or Weber had had the order swapped around here and there, you'd have the naysayers and the yaysayers for every outcome. Weber could easily have a Norris. Subban could easily have two or none. At the end of the day, they were both top-tier D men in the league, not just as a flash in the pan, but for an extended period of time.

Now what's interesting is that the HHOF clearly states that in addition to playing ability, they also consider character, sportsmanship, and contribution to the game of hockey in general. In Subban's case, he's probably been one of the bigger ambassadors for the game, as a voice in the community, as a role model for visible minorities, and as a fundraiser for charity both in Montreal at the Children's Hospital as well as in Nashville with his Blueline Buddy program. Weber has been a captain and a leader on two different clubs. I look at other guys in the HHOF and while we can argue about what the standard should be, you see players like Housley and Leetch and Larry Murphy and Pronger and Zubov and Doug Wilson, and while these were all terrific and exciting players for their eras, they also played at times where scoring and offensive production were propped up and some of these guys were not defensive stalwarts in the least. They were inducted for their offensive production. You can also point to the Habs having all of Savard, Robinson, and Lapointe in the Hall. Again, all great players and all worthy in their own right, but were their stats and value not propped up by all being there at the same time and all playing with some powerhouse Canadiens' teams? Subban spent a significant amount of time playing with the likes of Patrick Traverse and Hal Gill and Weber with the likes of Emelin and Chiarot. This isn't the same as being partnered with Larry Robinson. So to me, you have to look at what each guy did in their own era and again, each player was near the top for performance for a several-year stretch in those eras.

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3 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Again, all great players and all worthy in their own right, but were their stats and value not propped up by all being there at the same time and all playing with some powerhouse Canadiens' teams?

No, their stats and value weren't propped up. Their skill made the Habs a powerhouse.  

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1 minute ago, habs1952 said:

No, their stats and value weren't propped up. Their skill made the Habs a powerhouse.  

Yeah, they had a lot of talent. But put Lapointe, for example, on last year's Habs team and put a Markov, Weber, or Subban on one of the teams from the late 70s. I can pretty much guarantee you the former would have more trouble looking good and the other set would have looked better. We know all these players were good. But so much of what leads to HHOF induction or numbers being retired is how many Cups you've won and how many points you've put up. If a Weber or Subban was a member of three Cup champion teams and had put up seasons of 80 points instead of 60 points because they played on teams that were in friendlier-scoring eras and that had stacked rosters, they'd be locks and this wouldn't even be a discussion.

If you want to look back, there are 14 100-point seasons among defencemen in the history of the NHL. All were between 1970 and 1991. And so as good as Paul Coffey was, he played in the golden era of point production and he played on teams that featured Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, and Mario Lemieux among others. So again, put him on last year's Habs and I'm sure he'd still play well, but if he puts up 50 points a season, is he a lock to get into the Hall? Now conversely, look at the NHL's dead-puck era of the late 90s and early 2000s. There wasn't a single NHL D man who scored more than 80 points in a season between the 1995 and 2015 seasons. So 100%, I believe era and style of play and league rules at the time a player played made a huge difference.

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I don't think MT could develop a cold working in the Covid ward without protection. There was more than enough video out there during his tenure as coach to show how he felt about giving young players any slack. 

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30 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

The coaching sucked too

https://montrealhockeynow.com/2022/09/27/michel-therrien-there-wasnt-much-to-develop/

Michel Therrien: ‘There Wasn’t Much To Develop’

 

14 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I don't think MT could develop a cold working in the Covid ward without protection. There was more than enough video out there during his tenure as coach to show how he felt about giving young players any slack. 

Michel Therrien really just seems like he is the worst type of person: arrogant, condescending, loves to pass the blame on to others and doesn't take responsibility, and just a general asshat for how he treated his players, particularly Subban. And yes, I will always wonder how much race played into this. Because while Therrien was awful to others too, he seemed to go out of his way to embarrass and blast Subban, and I'm not entirely sure he would have done it to the same degree if Subban had been white. Therrien is a stain on the Canadiens' franchise, never should have been re-hired, and was retained well past his prime. Good riddance and don't come back.

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22 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Michel Therrien really just seems like he is the worst type of person: arrogant, condescending, loves to pass the blame on to others and doesn't take responsibility, and just a general asshat for how he treated his players, particularly Subban. And yes, I will always wonder how much race played into this. Because while Therrien was awful to others too, he seemed to go out of his way to embarrass and blast Subban, and I'm not entirely sure he would have done it to the same degree if Subban had been white. Therrien is a stain on the Canadiens' franchise, never should have been re-hired, and was retained well past his prime. Good riddance and don't come back.

We'll never know but PK was also the antithesis of the "quiet hockey guy" like Patches or Weber.  My guess is that that was the bigger issue although admittedly, even though I dont like MT, I also never want to think people are racist. 

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

We'll never know but PK was also the antithesis of the "quiet hockey guy" like Patches or Weber.  My guess is that that was the bigger issue although admittedly, even though I dont like MT, I also never want to think people are racist. 

I don't want to assume anything either, but I think you can't help but ask the question "if PK were white..." Yes, PK was always about the show, but you look at a guy like Ovechkin in Washington and there's a player who is also constantly trying to attract the limelight too. Big personality, frequently out at the club and partying, talks a big game and doesn't shy away from telling everyone how good he is. And you really don't ever hear anything from anyone saying Ovechkin needs to tone it down or stop showboating with the puck or stop talking trash. Or look at Carey Price... a much quieter guy, but also 50% of the triple low five combo, and there was never any talk about how Price doing that was distracting or taking away the spotlight from the rest of the team, yet Therrien banned the triple low five. If the triple low five was the problem, why did Therrien never call out Price as well as Subban? Or was it not the triple low five that was the issue?

I agree with you in some respects that Subban's personality rubbed some the wrong way and would have done so no matter his skin color. But I also believe that Subban being a big personality AND being black rubbed some people the wrong way more. He's not a traditional poster-boy for the NHL and frankly I think that made some people uncomfortable. I think there was definitely some amount of sentiment of "you're lucky to be here so shut up and fall in line." And we know Subban has said he was raised not to create storylines out of his skin color or use that as an excuse, but we've also heard him say that there's a lot that happened behind closed doors in the Therrien era that he doesn't want to discuss and we know that he's commented on racism in sports (especially when his brother was attacked in the minors last year) and said that every black player has suffered through racist acts trying to break into what is overwhelmingly a white person's sport. Now this doesn't necessarily implicate Therrien or any one person in particular, but I do believe Therrien had it out for Subban as a person and Therrien himself is on record as saying that "he told the veterans on the team that he would be the bad guy to take care of keeping Subban in check so they didn't have to." I don't even know what that means, but the fact you think you have to do that and then did it and then felt okay saying it out loud also says something to me.

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17 hours ago, maas_art said:

We'll never know but PK was also the antithesis of the "quiet hockey guy" like Patches or Weber.  My guess is that that was the bigger issue although admittedly, even though I dont like MT, I also never want to think people are racist. 

 

13 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't want to assume anything either, but I think you can't help but ask the question "if PK were white..." Yes, PK was always about the show, but you look at a guy like Ovechkin in Washington and there's a player who is also constantly trying to attract the limelight too. Big personality, frequently out at the club and partying, talks a big game and doesn't shy away from telling everyone how good he is. And you really don't ever hear anything from anyone saying Ovechkin needs to tone it down or stop showboating with the puck or stop talking trash. Or look at Carey Price... a much quieter guy, but also 50% of the triple low five combo, and there was never any talk about how Price doing that was distracting or taking away the spotlight from the rest of the team, yet Therrien banned the triple low five. If the triple low five was the problem, why did Therrien never call out Price as well as Subban? Or was it not the triple low five that was the issue?

I agree with you in some respects that Subban's personality rubbed some the wrong way and would have done so no matter his skin color. But I also believe that Subban being a big personality AND being black rubbed some people the wrong way more. He's not a traditional poster-boy for the NHL and frankly I think that made some people uncomfortable. I think there was definitely some amount of sentiment of "you're lucky to be here so shut up and fall in line." And we know Subban has said he was raised not to create storylines out of his skin color or use that as an excuse, but we've also heard him say that there's a lot that happened behind closed doors in the Therrien era that he doesn't want to discuss and we know that he's commented on racism in sports (especially when his brother was attacked in the minors last year) and said that every black player has suffered through racist acts trying to break into what is overwhelmingly a white person's sport. Now this doesn't necessarily implicate Therrien or any one person in particular, but I do believe Therrien had it out for Subban as a person and Therrien himself is on record as saying that "he told the veterans on the team that he would be the bad guy to take care of keeping Subban in check so they didn't have to." I don't even know what that means, but the fact you think you have to do that and then did it and then felt okay saying it out loud also says something to me.

In my mind PK was a distraction, always needing the spotlight and attention, and thus was not popular with his teammates. I don't have any "inside" information, but it is well known that there was no love lost between Patches & Gally (and no doubt others) and Subban. I remember watching one time when Patches was being interviewed and Subban photobombed the interview and made it all about him. I lost a lot of respect for him on that one. The look of disdain on Max's face said it all. When you have two of the guys with letters not liking a player you have to know he is not all that popular in the room. And then of course came the instagram posts of Lyndsay Vonn and Subban from their vacation in Italy with their USA swimsuits - I actually felt sorry for him after that. It's almost a disease for some people to always want and NEED the continual spotlight. If Therrien did actually step in on Subban my guess would be that it would have been to keep a teammate from bashing him in the face - you can imagine the press that would have made in Habtown!

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  • 3 weeks later...
39 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

JK in Carolina has 2 Assists after 6 games - I miss him already 

 

And he's getting 2nd line minutes with Necas and Svechnikov on his wings... they'd better hope he stats producing or that $5m contract is going to start looking kinda bad. 

 

32 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Romanov 7 games no points and. A $5000 fine

Romy has never been about the points - i havent really watched any Isles games this year... i wonder how he's adjusting. I did always like him as a #4-5 guy but we definitely could afford to lose him based on our LW depth. Id make a Dach for Romanov + pick trade any day. 

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53 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Romy has never been about the points - i havent really watched any Isles games this year... i wonder how he's adjusting. I did always like him as a #4-5 guy but we definitely could afford to lose him based on our LW depth. Id make a Dach for Romanov + pick trade any day. 

I wonder... Has Arber Xhekaj emerged as a better version of Romanov?

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3 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

22 years old, so still time to turn into a top-six player... however... yeah, I can't say he's been trending in the right direct with point totals. :lol: Certainly don't miss him on the team anymore.

I really liked the kid but I don't think he will ever be a big points producer I will say this he was kind of a clutch player in the playoffs that may be all he is a fair player till the playoffs the he turns it up a tick or two.

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4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I wonder... Has Arber Xhekaj emerged as a better version of Romanov?

Different. Not as polished defensively but in the last year + Arber has shown that he takes on every challenge & seems to learn fast. I wouldnt be surprised to see him continue to improved.    Interestingly Robidas, who runs our defense, says he sees a lot of similarities between Arber and (his old teammate) Souray. He said Arber is already a better skater.   Souray obviously had an absolutely elite shot, but if Arber can develop into even half the player Sheldon was, he'll have a strong career. 

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