Goalies

[MissingDryden]

Why can’t Montreal find better goaltenders? Are they happy with the mediocre performance they are getting from the current roster? Why would they sign Jake Allen to a 2 year extension? 

[CaptWelly]

On 4/20/2023 at 4:14 AM, MissingDryden said:

Why can’t Montreal find better goaltenders? Are they happy with the mediocre performance they are getting from the current roster? Why would they sign Jake Allen to a 2 year extension? 

This year especially it's an easy way to help "tank" or drop in the standings during a "rebuild" during a great draft year. I'm sure when they think they're getting closer to where they want to be they'll either be looking or hoping one develops. They may have a future goalie in the NCAA goalie they just signed. Give him two years I think he's going to be good.

[habs1952]

On 4/20/2023 at 4:14 AM, MissingDryden said:

Why can’t Montreal find better goaltenders? Are they happy with the mediocre performance they are getting from the current roster? Why would they sign Jake Allen to a 2 year extension? 

Everyone is sold out so teams do their goalie shopping at Walmart.

[jennifer_rocket]

On 4/20/2023 at 5:44 AM, MissingDryden said:

Why can’t Montreal find better goaltenders? Are they happy with the mediocre performance they are getting from the current roster? Why would they sign Jake Allen to a 2 year extension? 

Fair question.

I feel like our current NHL goaltending tandem is pretty weak. I also don't see Primeau really making much of a difference at the NHL level. Dobes seems too inexperienced to really draw a conclusion on.

The good thing. We're not really expecting to compete in the next couple of seasons, so... goaltending can be addressed later on. I'm more hopeful we can build an awesome top-six and top-four D before we worry about goaltending.

[maas_art]

On 4/20/2023 at 1:14 AM, MissingDryden said:

Why can’t Montreal find better goaltenders? Are they happy with the mediocre performance they are getting from the current roster? Why would they sign Jake Allen to a 2 year extension? 

I think they intentionally didnt look for better goalies. 

I think Gorton & hughes know that the best way to improve your roster is to draft high and you cant ask the coaches or the players to tank. You nudge them in that direction with subpar goaltending. I honestly dont think they thought Monty would be as good as he was tbh. 

[ramcharger440]

3 hours ago, maas_art said:

I think they intentionally didnt look for better goalies. 

I think Gorton & hughes know that the best way to improve your roster is to draft high and you cant ask the coaches or the players to tank. You nudge them in that direction with subpar goaltending. I honestly dont think they thought Monty would be as good as he was tbh. 

Yeah Monty was really quite solid when you consider where he was at last season and the Dcorps in front of him!

[MissingDryden]

I tend to agree with everyone who replied to my question. Thank you everyone of you.

[HabsAlways]

On 4/20/2023 at 2:14 AM, MissingDryden said:

Why can’t Montreal find better goaltenders? Are they happy with the mediocre performance they are getting from the current roster? Why would they sign Jake Allen to a 2 year extension? 

Because you don't need an elite goalie to mess up your rebuild (aka Price).    An elite goalie is only going to keep the team being a middle of the pack, wildcard team that drafts in the middle of the round.   We need top 5 picks, we need a youth movement, we're not trying to be competitive yet nor should we be trying for another 2-3 years.

[CaptWelly]

1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

Because you don't need an elite goalie to mess up your rebuild (aka Price).    An elite goalie is only going to keep the team being a middle of the pack, wildcard team that drafts in the middle of the round.   We need top 5 picks, we need a youth movement, we're not trying to be competitive yet nor should we be trying for another 2-3 years.

another 2-3 years? So five to six years of being bottom 5. I would think if we're still that bad after 5 years then we're supposed to find a star goalie? We may end up middle of pack for a long long time, because if we're still that far back then either our picks have been bad or we really aren't developing anything. 

[HabsAlways]

41 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

another 2-3 years? So five to six years of being bottom 5. I would think if we're still that bad after 5 years then we're supposed to find a star goalie? We may end up middle of pack for a long long time, because if we're still that far back then either our picks have been bad or we really aren't developing anything. 

If MB had the foresight and courage to have torn it all down rather than sticking to "just make the playoffs" ... we would be facing this now, we'd be on the tail end of a proper rebuild. 

[CaptWelly]

8 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

If MB had the foresight and courage to have torn it all down rather than sticking to "just make the playoffs" ... we would be facing this now, we'd be on the tail end of a proper rebuild. 

Having Price already and some other pieces it's always easy for everybody to say this. But at that time was Molson 100% on board for a rebuild in a city like Montreal? I'm sure he remembers as everyone else, what happened when the team got rid of Roy. Have the others from that time been forgiven even yet? I'm not saying everything MB did was correct, but us as fans don't know either what Molson or others board members other investors (what they perceived, correct or not) the fans reaction would be? 

So as the say hindsight is 20/20. Easy to second guess when we don't know all the facts. If you do make the playoffs you actually do have a chance. Getting high draft choices all depends on where you are drafting and which year ect. Hopefully it'll work out. It's worked great for Arizona and others as much as it's worked out for some of the teams that have gotten "Lucky" enough to get the high end talents in those draft years. So it "could" be 2-3 , 3-5, maybe 8-10 hoping to rebuild? Some can argue that this management group will do better? They were gifted star players along with a Norris defenseman that wanted to go only to their team. Thats not genius building. 

So yes I'm hoping also we're there now but I'm not glassy eyed 100% believing it's going to happen. I do like some of what I've seen so far. Drafting a winger without a clear picture of what he's going to become. I think Nemac and Cooley are going to be the real deal. Were Laf and Kakko the best at 1&2 in their drafts also wingers? We will see.

As I've said I'm still hopefull and do like some of what I've seen. Remember though that some of our current young group were from drafts or trades Suzuki that MB made. 

[BigTed3]

Just going to point out that most teams right now don't have a star #1 goalie. In fact, the majority of the teams in the playoffs have used a tandem approach to their goaltending situation this year:

- Bos has Ullmark, but they've used a healthy dose of Swayman as well

- Toronto platooned Samsonov and Murray

- Florida used Bobrovsky and Knight and then turned to Lyon late in the year

- The Devils have been using a mix of Vanecek, Schmid, and Blackwood

- The Canes with Andersen and Raanta

- The Avs used a lot of Georgiev, but Francouz is not that far behind in terms of skill and missed time with injury

- The Wild with Gustavsson and MAF

- The Knights with their collection of misfit goalies all season

- The Oilers with Skinner and Campbell

- The Kings with Copley and Quick and then Korpisalo

- The Kraken with Jones and Grubauer

Even the Rangers and Isles, who have clear #1 goalies, leaned on Halak and Varlamov respectively for over 20 games each, and only 5 of the teams in the post-season had goalies who started 60 games or more. No one in the league started more than 64 games this year, so gone are the days where you had a starting goalie play 70+ games for you.

All that to say that there are fewer great options in net and fewer clearcut number ones. Most teams have taken to using some form of tandem approach and accepting that they don't have a star back there. I don't love Allen/Monty as a way to win a Cup, but if you put a better roster in front of them, I think they can be as competitive as a number of the teams in the post-season.

[CaptWelly]

4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Just going to point out that most teams right now don't have a star #1 goalie. In fact, the majority of the teams in the playoffs have used a tandem approach to their goaltending situation this year:

- Bos has Ullmark, but they've used a healthy dose of Swayman as well

- Toronto platooned Samsonov and Murray

- Florida used Bobrovsky and Knight and then turned to Lyon late in the year

- The Devils have been using a mix of Vanecek, Schmid, and Blackwood

- The Canes with Andersen and Raanta

- The Avs used a lot of Georgiev, but Francouz is not that far behind in terms of skill and missed time with injury

- The Wild with Gustavsson and MAF

- The Knights with their collection of misfit goalies all season

- The Oilers with Skinner and Campbell

- The Kings with Copley and Quick and then Korpisalo

- The Kraken with Jones and Grubauer

Even the Rangers and Isles, who have clear #1 goalies, leaned on Halak and Varlamov respectively for over 20 games each, and only 5 of the teams in the post-season had goalies who started 60 games or more. No one in the league started more than 64 games this year, so gone are the days where you had a starting goalie play 70+ games for you.

All that to say that there are fewer great options in net and fewer clearcut number ones. Most teams have taken to using some form of tandem approach and accepting that they don't have a star back there. I don't love Allen/Monty as a way to win a Cup, but if you put a better roster in front of them, I think they can be as competitive as a number of the teams in the post-season.

Just because they aren't playing goalies 60-75 games any more doesn't mean they aren't number 1 goalies. It just makes more sense to have a solid backup and to keep you're starter fresher. So no you don't absolutely need a #1 starter just as you don't an absolute star forward or defenseman. You can have multiple good to great players and as injuries happen ect. be better off. Goaltender is no different though it's nice to have the star goalie who can steal a game or even a series. Being a Canadiens fan, we've had a long history of goalies stealing series ect.  Just like it's nice to have that game breaker but a lot of times it's a role player that comes up big in the playoffs. 

[BigTed3]

1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

Just because they aren't playing goalies 60-75 games any more doesn't mean they aren't number 1 goalies. It just makes more sense to have a solid backup and to keep you're starter fresher. So no you don't absolutely need a #1 starter just as you don't an absolute star forward or defenseman. You can have multiple good to great players and as injuries happen ect. be better off. Goaltender is no different though it's nice to have the star goalie who can steal a game or even a series. Being a Canadiens fan, we've had a long history of goalies stealing series ect.  Just like it's nice to have that game breaker but a lot of times it's a role player that comes up big in the playoffs. 

Sure, but my point is that we're not seeing star goalies playing 70 games a year any more. Teams are relying on having two goalies who split the load, so the concept of having a tandem and not one star is not unrealistic. We've been spoiled by having had the likes of Dryden, Roy, Theodore, and Price here for most of the past 50 years, and the fact is that most teams don't have this to rely on. Yes, we need to upgrade out #1 goalie, but if you look at the average playoff goalie situation, they're running the likes of Skinner/Campbell, Copley/Korpisalo, Lyon/Bob, Vanecek/Schmid, Jones/Grubauer, etc. and I don't find Allen/Monty is that far off of where those teams are.

[MissingDryden]

Thomas Milic would be a great addition to Montreal. He can certainly handle the pressure of being a Canadien goalie given his performance in the recent junior hockey championship. 

[CaptWelly]

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Sure, but my point is that we're not seeing star goalies playing 70 games a year any more. Teams are relying on having two goalies who split the load, so the concept of having a tandem and not one star is not unrealistic. We've been spoiled by having had the likes of Dryden, Roy, Theodore, and Price here for most of the past 50 years, and the fact is that most teams don't have this to rely on. Yes, we need to upgrade out #1 goalie, but if you look at the average playoff goalie situation, they're running the likes of Skinner/Campbell, Copley/Korpisalo, Lyon/Bob, Vanecek/Schmid, Jones/Grubauer, etc. and I don't find Allen/Monty is that far off of where those teams are.

As I stated that goalies were'nt playing those number of games anymore, I also stated it makes more sense to have a strong back up. Most all teams still though have a goalie they consider the #1 and probably play around 55 games. With the number of back to backs it even makes more sence now. Just as with the number of games in a season you really don't need the old school of thinking of line as #1,2,3 maybe a checking line maybe not. Being able to roll lines and not worry as much about match ups. Lets you not burn out your best players and makes a team harder to play against. As talented as the Av's & Wings were years ago it did make a huge difference to both though when they got Roy , and Hasek or even Vernon. 

[RCAF48]

I agree mediocre goal tending keeps you competitive against mediocre goal tending but I would prefer going with great goal tending against mediocre goal tending even though you might end up drafting 32nd because of it.

 

 

[habs1952]

Over the years the Habs have won a lot of Stanley Cups with great goaltending. Not so with poor goaltending. Your goalies don't need to be that great during the season but when the playoffs start they better be ready to be great.

[CaptWelly]

2 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Over the years the Habs have won a lot of Stanley Cups with great goaltending. Not so with poor goaltending. Your goalies don't need to be that great during the season but when the playoffs start they better be ready to be great.

Agreed

[kinot-2]

1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

Agreed

Ala, Halak. 

[claremont]

Don't we have an emerging goalie issue for 2023-24?

Cayden Primeau if he gets cut at training camp, has to clear waivers before he can go to Laval.

Four options assuming Monty is kept;

1) Keep 3 goalies on the roster - we have sufficient cap room, but someone takes up a spot that could be used for a forward or D-man

2) Trade Jake Allen

3) Trade Primeau

4) Risk Primeau being cleared on waivers

In keeping with HuGo culture, Jake wants to be here - Verdun roots. Sure he had an off season but so did the whole team so is all the blame on Allen? Perhaps his experience is valuable, but he will never be a #1 starter - that has likely passed to Monty. Do you trade Jake at low value as no point in keeping him unless you feel trade value will improve, as he is not par tof the rebuild future

Primeau has proven to be a capable AHL goaltender. Never proven anything at the NHL level. Is he even capable of further ascension?

I would roll the dice with option #4 unless he has an outstanding training camp

 

 

[H_T_L]

Something to remember with Primeau is that any team that would claim him off waivers needs to keep him on their NHL roster. 

[Regis22]

32 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Something to remember with Primeau is that any team that would claim him off waivers needs to keep him on their NHL roster. 

I’m no evaluator of goalie talent but Primeau will be 24 in august . He doesn’t seem to have forced the Canadiens hand . When given an opportunity he hasn’t run with it. I understand the team in front of him has been crap but still . At some point he has to come in and show that he belongs . Carter hart and skinner in Edmonton are 24 and they’ve kinda established themselves . If we lose Primeau , we lose him.  Find someone else . 

[H_T_L]

1 hour ago, Regis22 said:

I’m no evaluator of goalie talent but Primeau will be 24 in august . He doesn’t seem to have forced the Canadiens hand . When given an opportunity he hasn’t run with it. I understand the team in front of him has been crap but still . At some point he has to come in and show that he belongs . Carter hart and skinner in Edmonton are 24 and they’ve kinda established themselves . If we lose Primeau , we lose him.  Find someone else . 

I won't lose any sleep over losing him myself. Haven't seen anything that tells me he'll be an above average NHL goalie. That's the reason i pointed out that a claiming team needs to put him on their roster, and they can't just send him down to the minors without putting him back on waivers.

[Regis22]

Should clarify , skinner in Edmonton has played well enough that the oilers are comfortable enough keeping him on the roster ……this year . Yea it’s only one year . He could be mediocre next year , but the Oilers decided to keep him. Primeau needed to do that and he didnt IMO

now Habs signed Jakob dobes . Ride him 8n the minors